Ukraine-The Future

[fathertime]

What a bunch of nonsense, the aggressive nature of THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION and FT's allegiance to America.  This is one hundred bong hits away from being a good time.  Put away the tin foil hats and live in the real world, boys.

LOL


Fathertime!   

[LiveFromUkraine]

What a bunch of nonsense, the aggressive nature of THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION and FT's allegiance to America.  This is one hundred bong hits away from being a good time.  Put away the tin foil hats and live in the real world, boys.

More insults... 

[Belvis]

I'm sure every Russian hates the fact their currency is losing strength and their quality of life is down but right now I see most people directing their anger towards the West more than Putin.

I'd like to  highlight some points. Russians are used to regular devaluations of ruble, the last one in 1998 was much more on large-scale than now. So anger is not the term I would employ, I would say  the acceptance of the inevitable describes better the emotional reaction to devaluation.  Even in propaganda West is  hold responsible for weakening the currency to very limited extent. People realize the dependence of Russia on oil price, and it's siily to blame business cycles.

In that vein, Russia needs an on-going relationship with the USA, as badly strained as it is, to help counterbalance China.

Well, actually right now Russia needs good relationship with China to help counterbalance USA. There are no fixed relationships in politics, there are constant state interests. Likely in future Russia will need to counterbalance China but now China is not our headache contrary to what some men hope for.

[Boethius]

The idea floated here, that Kyiv is overrun by fascists, is laughable.


I ask those who hold that notion to be true to please name all these fascists with real power.  Note - this is the third time I have made the request.

[Muzh]

What a bunch of nonsense, the aggressive nature of THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION and FT's allegiance to America.  This is one hundred bong hits away from being a good time.  Put away the tin foil hats and live in the real world, boys.

And here is the idiot who bitches constantly that people insult him. 

[Muzh]

The idea floated here, that Kyiv is overrun by fascists, is laughable.


I ask those who hold that notion to be true to please name all these fascists with real power.  Note - this is the third time I have made the request.

Heh, keep asking but you know Beavis will not respond. 

[Boethius]

Never asked him.

[Gator]

Neville:
No, there really wasn't much there, and I do not mean to be offensive by saying that.

However it is ever apparent that you lack a lot of the background knowledge to write coherently about the region. So rather than reading a lot into your post, I simply wrote a lot--as an investment in your data base.   

 

[Gator]

While the Soviets labeled the USA as the "main enemy," there was another large nation, on Russia's borders, that Russians still consider as a natural enemy, and fully expect to have to engage in a future conflict over borders? Hint: it ain't the USA.

Your post continues with many examples of why Russia should fear China.  You forgot one, and I am not sure of the implications.  Namely, there will 25 million Chinese men of prime military combat age without Chinese women.    Will these horny men gladly volunteer for raiding parties to capture RW?  Or will they become "blue men?" 

The world has never experienced such an imbalance between numbers of men and women between the age of 18-35. 

[Steamer]

The idea floated here, that Kyiv is overrun by fascists, is laughable.


I ask those who hold that notion to be true to please name all these fascists with real power.  Note - this is the third time I have made the request.

OK
how about  Andriy Parubiy: Deputy Minister of the Interior. Neo Nazi party director in the 90's.
Interestingly he was in charge of security at Maidan during the protests (where a 100+ were killed)


Oleg Tyagnibok MP Head of the Svoboda Party


Dmitry Yarosh Head of the Right Sector Militia


I'll have to dig further for more but this should get you started.

[fathertime]

Well, actually right now Russia needs good relationship with China to help counterbalance USA. There are no fixed relationships in politics, there are constant state interests. Likely in future Russia will need to counterbalance China but now China is not our headache contrary to what some men hope for.

I think this is the prevailing sentiment for now.  The US is the one that needs to be counterbalanced and Russia is a part of that equation, so for that purpose it is in China's interests to help Russia right now.  For the foreseeable future I don't see Russia needing to be counterbalanced, it will either the USA or China that needs the counterbalancing. 


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

OK
how about  Andriy Parubiy: Deputy Minister of the Interior. Neo Nazi party director in the 90's.
Interestingly he was in charge of security at Maidan during the protests (where a 100+ were killed)


Oleg Tyagnibok MP Head of the Svoboda Party


Dmitry Yarosh Head of the Right Sector Militia


I'll have to dig further for more but this should get you started.

Please point out what positions they hold in the current government. 


Yarosh has stated he is not a fascist.  Tyahnybok is a former commie.  He has in the past made anti Semitic statements, but while Svoboda is far right, whether or not it is fascist is still a matter of debate.  In any event, please let me know what positions either of these men hold in the current Ukrainian government.

[BillyB]

it is in China's interests to help Russia right now. 

If China ever wants to be top dog, they have to partner up with others before dropping USA. China and Russia have made many business agreements over the last year and they are bonding, especially with that $400 billion gas deal. Birds of a feather flock together. Russia and China both have ambitions to spread their borders. Recently a poll in Japan had China passing up North Korea for the first time as the major threat. Poll below shows Russians heavily favor China over America by almost 40%.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx

[Steamer]

Please point out what positions they hold in the current government. 


Yarosh has stated he is not a fascist.  Tyahnybok is a former commie.  He has in the past made anti Semitic statements, but while Svoboda is far right, whether or not it is fascist is still a matter of debate.  In any event, please let me know what positions either of these men hold in the current Ukrainian government.

There's more info and pics at this url:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

Andriy Parubiy

co-founder of the Neo-Nazi  Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU). (Рада національної безпеки і оборони України), a key position which overseas the Ministry of Defense, the Armed Forces, Law Enforcement, National Security and Intelligence. The RNBOU is central decision-making body. While it is formally headed by the president, it is run by the Secretariat with a staff of 180 people including defense, intelligence and national security experts.
Parubiy was one of the main leaders behind the Orange Revolution in 2004. His organization was funded by the West. He is referred to by the Western media as the “kommandant” of the EuroMaidan movement. Andriy Parubiy together with party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is a follower of Ukrainian Nazi Stepan Bandera, who collaborated in the mass murderer of Jews and Poles during World War II.
In turn, Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector delegation in the parliament, has been appointed Parubiy’s deputy Secretary of the RNBOU.
Yarosh was the leader of the Brown Shirt Neo-Nazi paramilitary during the EuroMaidan “protest” movement. He has called for disbanding the Party of the regions and the Communist Party.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

[Boethius]

None of them are in positions of any importance in the current cabinet or Rada.  In fact, Tyahnybok doesn't even hold a seat in the current Rada.

My question is, who are all these fascists who are now running Kyiv?  That question still stands.

[Steamer]

None of them are in positions of any importance in the current cabinet or Rada.  In fact, Tyahnybok doesn't even hold a seat in the current Rada.

My question is, who are all these fascists who are now running Kyiv?  That question still stands.

Bo you're just being deliberately difficult. Parubiy is still a minister.

[Boethius]

No, he "resigned" in August, I believe.


In any event, when the troubles started in Eastern Ukraine, the Rada was still controlled by the Party of Regions.  Was Yanukovych's party fascist too?

[Boethius]

The point that some here make, following Putin's argument, is that there would have been no war in Donbas if "fascists" had not taken power in Kyiv.  But first, the war started before a change in the Rada, and second, even if members of right leaning parties had positions in government, the majority members of the Rada were not significantly different before and after Yanukovych left office.  There were a few lawsuits, with a couple of MP's disqualified, but that was after Yanukovych left office, and it did not change the Rada's composition.


No party in the last Rada had a clear majority (before the 2014 election), so the Party of Regions was the party in power because of support from other parties.  That changed with time.  However, Fatherland, the party that took over, had the same members in the Rada before Yanukovych left office, and no one can argue credibly that the members of Fatherland are fascists.  It is unsubstantiated propaganda.  There are more fascists and neo Nazis in Russia's Duma than there are in Ukraine's Rada.

[Steamer]

None of them are in positions of any importance in the current cabinet or Rada.

These guys are still active and influential in the current govt. whatever their position.

[southernX]

steamer if you believe this  below from your link , ??

then nobody is not going to change  your perspective one iota imo

SX

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

The Lustration Committee is to organize the Neo-Nazi witch-hunt against all opponents of the new Neo-Nazi regime. The targets of the lustration campaign are people in positions of authority within the civil service, regional and municipal governments, education, research, etc.  The term lustration refers to the “mass disqualification” of people associated with the former government. It also has racial overtones. It will in all likelihood be directed against Communists, Russians  and members of the Jewish community.
 
It is important to reflect on the fact that the West, formally committed to democratic values, has not only spearheaded the demise of an elected president, it has instated a political regime integrated by Neo-Nazis.
 
This is a proxy government which enables the US, NATO and the EU to interfere in Ukraine’s internal affairs and dismantle its bilateral relations with the Russian Federation. It should be understood, however, that the Neo-Nazis do not ultimately call the shots. The composition of the Cabinet broadly coincides with U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland ” recommendations” contained in the leaked telephone call to the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine.
 
Washington has chosen to spearhead Neo-Nazis into positions of authority. Under a “regime of indirect rule”, however,  they take their orders on crucial military and foreign policy issues –including the deployment of troops directed against the Russian federation– from the the US State Department, the Pentagon and NATO.
 
The World is at a dangerous crossroads: The structures and composition of this proxy government installed by the West do not favor dialogue with the Russian government and military.
 
A scenario of military escalation leading to confrontation of Russia and NATO is a distinct possibility. The Ukraine’s National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU) which is controlled by Neo-Nazis plays a central role in military affairs.  In the confrontation with Moscow, decisions taken by the RNBOU headed by Neo-Nazi Parubiy and his brown Shirt deputy Dmytro Yarosh –in consultation with Washington and Brussels– could potentially have devastating consequences.
 
However, it goes without saying that “support” to the formation of a Neo-Nazi government does not in any way imply the development of “fascist tendencies” within the White House, the State Department and the US Congress.
 
“The flowering of democracy” in Ukraine –to use the words of the New York Times– is endorsed by Republicans and Democrats. It’s a bipartisan project. Lest we forget, Senator John McCain is a firm supporter and friend of Neo Nazi Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok (Image right).

[Steamer]

  There are more fascists and neo Nazis in Russia's Duma than there are in Ukraine's Rada.

That could very well be true but that doesn't make all the Ukrainian fascists disappear.

[Steamer]

steamer if you believe this  below from your link , ??

then nobody is not going to change  your perspective one iota imo

SX
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

That is correct.

[Boethius]

That could very well be true but that doesn't make all the Ukrainian fascists disappear.

Irrelevant.

First, Tyahnybok has no seat in the Rada, and, therefore, no role in government.  Parubiy is a founding member of People's Front, which definitely is not a fascist party.  Please point to all his "fascist" policies or statements.  Yarosh has always denied being a fascist.  He claims he is pro Ukrainian, and wants Ukraine to reject both the EU and Russia.  Pravij Sekhtor is a loose conglomeration of numerous groups, some of which are fascist, but not all of them are.  I would place him on the right, but I would not call statements I have read by him as fascist.


Your source, which I have read in the past, is very flawed and biased.  I have no problem in calling a spade a spade.  I personally do not believe Svoboda is a fascist party.  It was founded by former nomenklatura as an ultra nationalist party, because nationalism is the easiest way to control the masses.  If communism "sold" in that part of Ukraine, Svoboda would be a communist party.  Svoboda does have some troubling aspects, and some of its members are swine, but that is a different story.

None of the members named have any special power (beyond their roles as MP's for the two elected members), and did not at the time the war in Donbas started, or now.  Therefore, the bleating posts about the "fascists in Kyiv" is nothing more than propaganda, and inaccurate propaganda at that.


BTW, I am not suggesting there are no fascists in the Rada.  Andrey Biltesky holds views I consider fascist.  However, he is one voice, and a minority one in the current Rada.  That is my point.  The leaders in Kyiv never were fascists, despite what Natural and Shadow have asserted.

[Steamer]

Your source, which I have read in the past, is very flawed and biased.  I have no problem in calling a spade a spade.  I personally do not believe Svoboda is a fascist party.  It was founded by former nomenklatura as an ultra nationalist party, because nationalism is the easiest way to control the masses.  If communism "sold" in that part of Ukraine, Svoboda would be a communist party.  Svoboda does have some troubling aspects, and some of its members are swine, but that is a different story.

I've noticed that ANY source, ANY photo that does not sing the praises of Ukraine is flawed and biased. It's OK, I get it.

BTW, I am not suggesting there are no fascists in the Rada.  Andrey Biltesky holds views I consider fascist.  However, he is one voice, and a minority one in the current Rada.  That is my point.  The leaders in Kyiv never were fascists, despite what Natural and Shadow have asserted.

OK but isn't government merely a sum of it's parts?

[Boethius]

Please read this piece by an academic, Alexander Motyl.  He is a political scientist and Rutgers, and an acclaimed academic.  Disclaimer - he is an ethnic diaspora Ukrainian and at times, I find he is a bit nationalistic.  However, this piece, in terms of Ukraine, is accurate, IMHO -

Fascism is often used as an epithet, especially by the left, but it actually is a perfectly respectable academic term that refers to a particular type of political system. Everyone can agree that fascist states are authoritarian -- that is, they lack the fundamental attributes of democracy. Unlike democracies, fascist systems lack meaningful parliaments, judiciaries, parties, political contestation and elections. In fascist systems, as in all authoritarian systems, parliaments are rubber-stamp institutions, judiciaries do what the leader tells them, opposition parties are marginal and electoral outcomes are preordained.

Like all authoritarian states, fascist states are highly centralized and hierarchical, they give pride of place within the power structure to soldiers and policemen, usually secret policemen, and they always have a supreme leader. Indeed, there can be no fascist state without a supreme leader. Like authoritarian states, fascist states limit freedom of the press, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly; and espouse some form of ethnocentrism glorifying their nation and their state and their fabulous past, present and future.

But fascist states are not just run-of-the-mill authoritarian states. The latter typically connotes images of dour old men ruling a sullen population. Fascist states exude youth and vigor, and they always implicate the population in its own repression. Fascist leaders strut. They want to appear youthful, manly and active: they are machos, par excellence. They also appeal to those qualities in the population, usually co-opting the young into their movements or parties. No less important, fascist states are popular: they incorporate the population into the system of rule, promising it a grand and glorious future in exchange for its enthusiasm and support.

Not surprisingly, fascist states tend to sound and act aggressively. The soldiers and policemen that run fascist states have a natural proclivity to toughness and weaponry. The ethnocentrism appeals to national and state glory, and cult of vigor sees enemies everywhere. The machismo-based cult-like status of leaders encourages them to pound their chests with abandon. And the population's implication in its own repression leads it to balance its self-humiliation with attempts to humiliate others.

IS UKRAINE RULED BY FASCISTS?

Supporters of the Ukraine-is-fascist argument might say that Ukraine is not fascist, but its rulers are fascists who want to establish a fascist system of rule. Alas, this claim is absurd.

Poroshenko and his predecessor, Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov, are obviously not fascists.

None of the current cabinet members has anything resembling fascist credentials. The government that succeeded the corrupt Yanukovych dictatorship in late February 2014 consisted of 19 individuals: only two (Defense Minister Ihor Tenyukh and Deputy Prime Minister Oleksandr Sych) were members of the right-wing Svoboda party and one, the Secretary of the National and Security Defense Council Andriy Parubiy, had right-wing ties until 2004.

In early 2014, Svoboda had 38 seats in Ukraine's parliament -- out of a total of 450. Svoboda's leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, had run for president in the 2010 elections that brought Yanukovych to power and received 1.43 percent of the vote. He ran again, in the presidential ballot of May 25, 2014, and received 1.16 percent. Dmytro Yarosh, head of the right-wing Right Sector, received a mere 0.70 percent in 2014. In the October 26, 2104, parliamentary elections, Svoboda and the Right Sector got, respectively, six seats and one seat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html