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Author Topic: Ukraine-The Future  (Read 111293 times)

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Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #850 on: January 22, 2018, 01:51:38 PM »
It is always interesting to read survey results and the potential conclusions . Much of interest in these results.One of the things ( many things)  I have often been critical of on the forum here is when guys/girls etc make broad pronouncements based on a very shallow exposure from a short time  in Ukraine and to use what was gleaned from immediate family etc as a statement of the situation in Ukraine.
An example I have often quoted was the very fast moving and changing situation in 2014 -- people changed &  voiced their views as they gained confidence in Ukraine.
In this survey -- the areas defined as more Russian speaking are still less overt in  being negative towards Russia.

An interesting point on an area often commented on this forum --is the "sympathy" of the over 35 yo ages towards the USSR days !



What do Ukrainian Youth Think about Russian Aggression in Ukraine?

The events of recent years that affected a part of Ukrainian youth personally, such as the Euromaidan, annexation of Crimea, the anti-terrorist operation in Eastern Ukraine, and forced relocation due to military actions in Donbas, could not but influence their perception of relations with Russia. The opinion poll, analyzed by the New Europe Center, reflects the sentiments that are already affecting and will further influence domestic and foreign policy priorities of Ukraine.

Below we present key findings of the survey on youth perception of Russian aggression in Ukraine and Ukrainian-Russian relations. This list, however, is only the tip of the iceberg, as the nuances and detailed analysis are contained in the report.

http://medium.com/@NEC_Ukraine/what-do-ukrainian-youth-think-about-russian-aggression-in-ukraine-7d913aad967
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #851 on: January 22, 2018, 05:00:59 PM »
It is always interesting to read survey results and the potential conclusions...In this survey -- the areas defined as more Russian speaking are still less overt in  being negative towards Russia.

Yes, JayH, it's very interesting - but it would give a much better picture if it included respondents from Donetsk and Luhansk.  I realise that it may be logistically extremely difficult to do so, but any results without those regions included are naturally going to severely skew the responses.

I don't for a moment support the Russian annexation of Crimea or the invasion of Eastern Ukraine, but the youth in those areas are entitled to as much of a say, in a survey such as this, as those in the rest of the country.  Finding a way to hear that voice is a project which is definitely worthy of someone's time and effort.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #852 on: January 22, 2018, 05:40:26 PM »
Yes, JayH, it's very interesting - but it would give a much better picture if it included respondents from Donetsk and Luhansk.  I realise that it may be logistically extremely difficult to do so, but any results without those regions included are naturally going to severely skew the responses.

I don't for a moment support the Russian annexation of Crimea or the invasion of Eastern Ukraine, but the youth in those areas are entitled to as much of a say, in a survey such as this, as those in the rest of the country.  Finding a way to hear that voice is a project which is definitely worthy of someone's time and effort.

I have previously linked material from those areas.
As you say -- it is difficult to assess those areas --but note--the survey did include displaced people from those areas.
Going back some time -I posted material on Crimea that basically contradicted  the general view ( and often stated here by people that should know better!) that Crimea had overwhelming support fro Russia . The problem back then is the sheer weight of the Troll army bombarding the world with a distortion.
Likewise ,recent surveys in the east have been done under great difficulty -- but- even so -- the support for Russia was not in a majority. That was not the same age group as seen above -- and that would be interesting to see if it did hold there.

Regardless --Ukraine has to get on with the future and as such ,plan for all possible scenarios.

As a rider -- I do not agree that there is any benefit in conceding any Ukrainian sovereign territory to Russia in any circumstance. There are many loyal Ukrainians stuck in Crimea and the Donbass.That is not a solution-- but an invitation for future trouble from Russia. Only a clear decisive message will ever be understood by Russia -- not the western wavering inadequate waffling.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online msmob

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #853 on: January 23, 2018, 04:01:45 AM »
I have previously linked material from those areas.
As you say -- it is difficult to assess those areas --but note--the survey did include displaced people from those areas.
Going back some time -I posted material on Crimea that basically contradicted  the general view ( and often stated here by people that should know better!) that Crimea had overwhelming support fro Russia . The problem back then is the sheer weight of the Troll army bombarding the world with a distortion.
Likewise ,recent surveys in the east have been done under great difficulty -- but- even so -- the support for Russia was not in a majority. That was not the same age group as seen above -- and that would be interesting to see if it did hold there.

Regardless --Ukraine has to get on with the future and as such ,plan for all possible scenarios.

As a rider -- I do not agree that there is any benefit in conceding any Ukrainian sovereign territory to Russia in any circumstance. There are many loyal Ukrainians stuck in Crimea and the Donbass.That is not a solution-- but an invitation for future trouble from Russia. Only a clear decisive message will ever be understood by Russia -- not the western wavering inadequate waffling.

JayH

If you wish to show 'solidarity' why do you persist in using the Russian translit ( rather than the UA one) for Donbas....  You might as well write 'Kiev' ...

You are talking out of your arse about the ethnic make-up of Crimea - whilst it is true that Crimeans were largely content to be autonomous  - most of 'em always felt Russian and it didn't take too much stirring the pot from Moscow to awaken the chance to be back under Moscow - when "the west oversaw the removal of Yanu'" and "a Nazi junta took control"( Do note the inverted commas ..)

Donbas, another kettle of fish - it was more integrated into Ukraine - not so autonomous - the younger generation spoke both languages and I saw no problem in flying a UA flag at Euro 2012

This has been a battle for control of resources, there, really..  old scores between Oligrachs fiefdoms under a pretext of 'liberation' ..

 
 

Let the UK people vote on how we leave the EU - not MPs

Online mhr7

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #854 on: January 23, 2018, 05:51:41 AM »
This has been a battle for control of resources, there, really..  old scores between Oligrachs fiefdoms under a pretext of 'liberation' ..

There's a little more to it than that. Three of my coworkers came to Rostov from the Donbass, Two of them, both from Donetsk are absolutely livid about the removal of Yanu, are very anti-Ukraine and have applied for Russian citizenship. The other one , from Lugansk  is more pro-Ukrainian and wishes to return but has had difficulties with the Ukrainian government because she is from the area of conflict. I believe she has now finally been given permission to return.

Otherwise, I largely agree with your arguments. JayH and ML are both too anti-Russian to see or accept reality.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 01:37:19 PM by mhr7 »
"We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandeis

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #855 on: January 23, 2018, 02:34:39 PM »
It was mostly about gaining access to the assets of the region.  The GRU who arrived inflamed that, in support of Russian interests.  There is proof that not only Akhmetov, but Yanukovych, were funding militias in Donbas.


As for Jay and ML, I understand their sentiment.  They both know families who have lost loved ones in the war.  That tends to inflame passions.




To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #856 on: January 23, 2018, 03:06:38 PM »


Otherwise, I largely agree with your arguments. JayH and ML are both too anti-Russian to see or accept reality.

Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me)  anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked  nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of  silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online mhr7

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #857 on: January 23, 2018, 03:56:56 PM »
Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me)  anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked  nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of  silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.

True, I am very anti-Trump but my issues with him are kept to conversations with friends and family and here. Many Russians know what's going on in their country and will discuss it in the same manner. Just as there is nothing I can do to impede Trump, Russians know they can't impede the actions of Putin. To assert that all Russians are complicit, as I believe you have, is simply wrong. I should have been more specific in my disagreement.

There's not much you can do about the decisions of politicians, especially in Russia. I don't agree with much Putin does but I don't let it impact my life and my decision to work in Russia. In actuality, Putin is seen by many as the linchpin keeping the Russian government and Russia in general together. With Putin there is stability. So, better the devil you know......
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 04:41:14 PM by mhr7 »
"We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandeis

Online msmob

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #858 on: January 24, 2018, 02:18:12 AM »
Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me)  anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked  nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of  silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.

JayH... 

You wrote this in another thread..


"Moby -- it is YOU THAT DOES NOT GET IT !!!! :cluebat:
ML has often made the point --when all Russians do "get" the idea that they are responsible --yes-each and every one of them that stays silent is complicit in the invasions and deaths of Ukrainians."



How 'black' are your pots , Mr Kettle ? ;)
Let the UK people vote on how we leave the EU - not MPs

Offline JayH

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Ukrainian factory makes boards for world champion windsurfers
« Reply #859 on: May 28, 2018, 01:12:12 AM »
This story is an example of comments I have made on various aspects  of Ukraine.It is possible to do business with a decent attitude - and principles.!

ZHYTOMYR, Ukraine — When the Grolitsch family from Austria opened a factory making ironing boards in Ukraine 15 years ago, they couldn’t imagine that one day they would make windsurfing boards for the world’s top athletes.


Ukrainian factory makes boards for world champion windsurfers


Working in Ukraine

Eurogold recently doubled the size of its premises in the outskirts of Zhytomyr city to 80,000 square meters. Grolitsch says he sees his business continuing to be based in Ukraine, due to the country’s proximity to Europe, good logistics routes, and abundance of raw materials.

With 1,200 workers, the factory is currently one of the major employers in the region. And, like many other businesses in Ukraine, it is having trouble finding enough workers, especially shop floor workers and young people with technical education, Grolitsch says.

The people are what he values the most in Ukraine, although he grumbles about the short-term thinking of Ukrainians. “They want a quick profit, and this mentality really has to change.”

At the height of his 15-year experience of running a successful business in Ukraine, Grolitsch has some advice to foreign entrepreneurs who consider investing in the country.

“Never pay a cent of bribes and do not come here thinking you can do whatever you want,” he says. “There are strict rules you have to obey.”


http://www.kyivpost.com/business/ukrainian-factory-makes-boards-for-world-champion-windsurfers.html
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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“Why I returned to Ukraine”
« Reply #860 on: July 17, 2018, 12:33:24 AM »
Recently on the forum here we heard from a new member  based in  the south-west of Ukraine who went on to make various highly debatable  and numerous outright incorrect statements .
Her view  were not new to me -- back in 2014 when the Russian agents and disinformation was in full swing it was effective enough-particularly to those already a little sympathetic to Russia.It was a time of considerable confusion in Ukraine.

In the course of only a few months ( as the ongoing Russian invasion expanded) and Ukrainians started getting a much better handle on their situation peoples opinions shifted rapidly.In the course of that year  many people who were ambivalent become believers in Ukrainian nationalism  -- and started to see the hope of a nation free of Russian oppression.

There are people that believe in Ukraine -- despite all the negatives still faced .

This story also needs to be read by some of the ignorant here on the forum who think they can pick up a wife on the cheap who is "desperate" to leave.

“Why I returned to Ukraine”

Lisa Yasko studied at Oxford University and had the world at her feet but says the opportunity to be part of Ukrainian history was simply too good to miss


The thing that strikes me most of all is the spirit of freedom that shapes Ukrainian society. This struggle for freedom defines Ukrainian history and has found its expression in the way people feel free to say whatever they want. If something undermines our sense of freedom, our spirit of rebellion awakens immediately as if something has stirred deep in our DNA. Alongside this love of freedom, Ukrainian society also boasts a disarming sense of authenticity and honesty. Ukrainians are very straightforward when it comes to expressing ourselves.

Today’s Ukraine is a remarkably dynamic society where change is the norm, providing the promise of social mobility and fresh opportunities as the country embraces a new direction. Yes, there are many challenges that Ukraine still needs to resolve. It is not necessarily easy to see the bigger picture when you are focusing on these day-to-day problems, but I believe the developments taking place in the country become more evident once you adopt a broader perspective. In Kyiv, we see more young people than ever entering the senior ranks of government, business, and the cultural world. Meanwhile, the fashion, creativity and clubbing scenes in the Ukrainian capital are so vibrant that the city is gaining a reputation as “The New Berlin”. Young Ukrainians who are part of the first fully post-independence generation appreciate that it is up to them to build a better country.  More and more young people are taking this responsibility upon themselves.

http://bunews.com.ua/opinion/item/why-i-returned-to-ukraine

SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

 

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