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Author Topic: Ukraine-The Future  (Read 113767 times)

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Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #850 on: January 22, 2018, 01:51:38 PM »
It is always interesting to read survey results and the potential conclusions . Much of interest in these results.One of the things ( many things)  I have often been critical of on the forum here is when guys/girls etc make broad pronouncements based on a very shallow exposure from a short time  in Ukraine and to use what was gleaned from immediate family etc as a statement of the situation in Ukraine.
An example I have often quoted was the very fast moving and changing situation in 2014 -- people changed &  voiced their views as they gained confidence in Ukraine.
In this survey -- the areas defined as more Russian speaking are still less overt in  being negative towards Russia.

An interesting point on an area often commented on this forum --is the "sympathy" of the over 35 yo ages towards the USSR days !



What do Ukrainian Youth Think about Russian Aggression in Ukraine?

The events of recent years that affected a part of Ukrainian youth personally, such as the Euromaidan, annexation of Crimea, the anti-terrorist operation in Eastern Ukraine, and forced relocation due to military actions in Donbas, could not but influence their perception of relations with Russia. The opinion poll, analyzed by the New Europe Center, reflects the sentiments that are already affecting and will further influence domestic and foreign policy priorities of Ukraine.

Below we present key findings of the survey on youth perception of Russian aggression in Ukraine and Ukrainian-Russian relations. This list, however, is only the tip of the iceberg, as the nuances and detailed analysis are contained in the report.

http://medium.com/@NEC_Ukraine/what-do-ukrainian-youth-think-about-russian-aggression-in-ukraine-7d913aad967
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #851 on: January 22, 2018, 05:00:59 PM »
It is always interesting to read survey results and the potential conclusions...In this survey -- the areas defined as more Russian speaking are still less overt in  being negative towards Russia.

Yes, JayH, it's very interesting - but it would give a much better picture if it included respondents from Donetsk and Luhansk.  I realise that it may be logistically extremely difficult to do so, but any results without those regions included are naturally going to severely skew the responses.

I don't for a moment support the Russian annexation of Crimea or the invasion of Eastern Ukraine, but the youth in those areas are entitled to as much of a say, in a survey such as this, as those in the rest of the country.  Finding a way to hear that voice is a project which is definitely worthy of someone's time and effort.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #852 on: January 22, 2018, 05:40:26 PM »
Yes, JayH, it's very interesting - but it would give a much better picture if it included respondents from Donetsk and Luhansk.  I realise that it may be logistically extremely difficult to do so, but any results without those regions included are naturally going to severely skew the responses.

I don't for a moment support the Russian annexation of Crimea or the invasion of Eastern Ukraine, but the youth in those areas are entitled to as much of a say, in a survey such as this, as those in the rest of the country.  Finding a way to hear that voice is a project which is definitely worthy of someone's time and effort.

I have previously linked material from those areas.
As you say -- it is difficult to assess those areas --but note--the survey did include displaced people from those areas.
Going back some time -I posted material on Crimea that basically contradicted  the general view ( and often stated here by people that should know better!) that Crimea had overwhelming support fro Russia . The problem back then is the sheer weight of the Troll army bombarding the world with a distortion.
Likewise ,recent surveys in the east have been done under great difficulty -- but- even so -- the support for Russia was not in a majority. That was not the same age group as seen above -- and that would be interesting to see if it did hold there.

Regardless --Ukraine has to get on with the future and as such ,plan for all possible scenarios.

As a rider -- I do not agree that there is any benefit in conceding any Ukrainian sovereign territory to Russia in any circumstance. There are many loyal Ukrainians stuck in Crimea and the Donbass.That is not a solution-- but an invitation for future trouble from Russia. Only a clear decisive message will ever be understood by Russia -- not the western wavering inadequate waffling.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online msmob

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #853 on: January 23, 2018, 04:01:45 AM »
I have previously linked material from those areas.
As you say -- it is difficult to assess those areas --but note--the survey did include displaced people from those areas.
Going back some time -I posted material on Crimea that basically contradicted  the general view ( and often stated here by people that should know better!) that Crimea had overwhelming support fro Russia . The problem back then is the sheer weight of the Troll army bombarding the world with a distortion.
Likewise ,recent surveys in the east have been done under great difficulty -- but- even so -- the support for Russia was not in a majority. That was not the same age group as seen above -- and that would be interesting to see if it did hold there.

Regardless --Ukraine has to get on with the future and as such ,plan for all possible scenarios.

As a rider -- I do not agree that there is any benefit in conceding any Ukrainian sovereign territory to Russia in any circumstance. There are many loyal Ukrainians stuck in Crimea and the Donbass.That is not a solution-- but an invitation for future trouble from Russia. Only a clear decisive message will ever be understood by Russia -- not the western wavering inadequate waffling.

JayH

If you wish to show 'solidarity' why do you persist in using the Russian translit ( rather than the UA one) for Donbas....  You might as well write 'Kiev' ...

You are talking out of your arse about the ethnic make-up of Crimea - whilst it is true that Crimeans were largely content to be autonomous  - most of 'em always felt Russian and it didn't take too much stirring the pot from Moscow to awaken the chance to be back under Moscow - when "the west oversaw the removal of Yanu'" and "a Nazi junta took control"( Do note the inverted commas ..)

Donbas, another kettle of fish - it was more integrated into Ukraine - not so autonomous - the younger generation spoke both languages and I saw no problem in flying a UA flag at Euro 2012

This has been a battle for control of resources, there, really..  old scores between Oligrachs fiefdoms under a pretext of 'liberation' ..

 
 

The internet, in the end, was not designed to give people the information they need. It gives people the information they want.

Online mhr7

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #854 on: January 23, 2018, 05:51:41 AM »
This has been a battle for control of resources, there, really..  old scores between Oligrachs fiefdoms under a pretext of 'liberation' ..

There's a little more to it than that. Three of my coworkers came to Rostov from the Donbass, Two of them, both from Donetsk are absolutely livid about the removal of Yanu, are very anti-Ukraine and have applied for Russian citizenship. The other one , from Lugansk  is more pro-Ukrainian and wishes to return but has had difficulties with the Ukrainian government because she is from the area of conflict. I believe she has now finally been given permission to return.

Otherwise, I largely agree with your arguments. JayH and ML are both too anti-Russian to see or accept reality.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 01:37:19 PM by mhr7 »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #855 on: January 23, 2018, 02:34:39 PM »
It was mostly about gaining access to the assets of the region.  The GRU who arrived inflamed that, in support of Russian interests.  There is proof that not only Akhmetov, but Yanukovych, were funding militias in Donbas.


As for Jay and ML, I understand their sentiment.  They both know families who have lost loved ones in the war.  That tends to inflame passions.




To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #856 on: January 23, 2018, 03:06:38 PM »


Otherwise, I largely agree with your arguments. JayH and ML are both too anti-Russian to see or accept reality.

Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me)  anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked  nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of  silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online mhr7

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #857 on: January 23, 2018, 03:56:56 PM »
Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me)  anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked  nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of  silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.

True, I am very anti-Trump but my issues with him are kept to conversations with friends and family and here. Many Russians know what's going on in their country and will discuss it in the same manner. Just as there is nothing I can do to impede Trump, Russians know they can't impede the actions of Putin. To assert that all Russians are complicit, as I believe you have, is simply wrong. I should have been more specific in my disagreement.

There's not much you can do about the decisions of politicians, especially in Russia. I don't agree with much Putin does but I don't let it impact my life and my decision to work in Russia. In actuality, Putin is seen by many as the linchpin keeping the Russian government and Russia in general together. With Putin there is stability. So, better the devil you know......
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 04:41:14 PM by mhr7 »
"We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandeis

Online msmob

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #858 on: January 24, 2018, 02:18:12 AM »
Actually --it is the other way around!
Eg -- look at my attitude to the damage Trump is doing to America -- your conclusions equal about the same as mine. Does that make you ( or me)  anti American? The answer is no.
If Trump initiates an unprovoked  nuclear attack on NK that results in millions of deaths -- as an American -- would you be feel culpable? If your attitude was a strong negative that would differentiate you from the likes of  silly Billy who cheering Trump on,effectively encouraging him.
You are smart enough to understand my point here.

JayH... 

You wrote this in another thread..


"Moby -- it is YOU THAT DOES NOT GET IT !!!! :cluebat:
ML has often made the point --when all Russians do "get" the idea that they are responsible --yes-each and every one of them that stays silent is complicit in the invasions and deaths of Ukrainians."



How 'black' are your pots , Mr Kettle ? ;)
The internet, in the end, was not designed to give people the information they need. It gives people the information they want.

Offline JayH

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Ukrainian factory makes boards for world champion windsurfers
« Reply #859 on: May 28, 2018, 01:12:12 AM »
This story is an example of comments I have made on various aspects  of Ukraine.It is possible to do business with a decent attitude - and principles.!

ZHYTOMYR, Ukraine — When the Grolitsch family from Austria opened a factory making ironing boards in Ukraine 15 years ago, they couldn’t imagine that one day they would make windsurfing boards for the world’s top athletes.


Ukrainian factory makes boards for world champion windsurfers


Working in Ukraine

Eurogold recently doubled the size of its premises in the outskirts of Zhytomyr city to 80,000 square meters. Grolitsch says he sees his business continuing to be based in Ukraine, due to the country’s proximity to Europe, good logistics routes, and abundance of raw materials.

With 1,200 workers, the factory is currently one of the major employers in the region. And, like many other businesses in Ukraine, it is having trouble finding enough workers, especially shop floor workers and young people with technical education, Grolitsch says.

The people are what he values the most in Ukraine, although he grumbles about the short-term thinking of Ukrainians. “They want a quick profit, and this mentality really has to change.”

At the height of his 15-year experience of running a successful business in Ukraine, Grolitsch has some advice to foreign entrepreneurs who consider investing in the country.

“Never pay a cent of bribes and do not come here thinking you can do whatever you want,” he says. “There are strict rules you have to obey.”


http://www.kyivpost.com/business/ukrainian-factory-makes-boards-for-world-champion-windsurfers.html
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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“Why I returned to Ukraine”
« Reply #860 on: July 17, 2018, 12:33:24 AM »
Recently on the forum here we heard from a new member  based in  the south-west of Ukraine who went on to make various highly debatable  and numerous outright incorrect statements .
Her view  were not new to me -- back in 2014 when the Russian agents and disinformation was in full swing it was effective enough-particularly to those already a little sympathetic to Russia.It was a time of considerable confusion in Ukraine.

In the course of only a few months ( as the ongoing Russian invasion expanded) and Ukrainians started getting a much better handle on their situation peoples opinions shifted rapidly.In the course of that year  many people who were ambivalent become believers in Ukrainian nationalism  -- and started to see the hope of a nation free of Russian oppression.

There are people that believe in Ukraine -- despite all the negatives still faced .

This story also needs to be read by some of the ignorant here on the forum who think they can pick up a wife on the cheap who is "desperate" to leave.

“Why I returned to Ukraine”

Lisa Yasko studied at Oxford University and had the world at her feet but says the opportunity to be part of Ukrainian history was simply too good to miss


The thing that strikes me most of all is the spirit of freedom that shapes Ukrainian society. This struggle for freedom defines Ukrainian history and has found its expression in the way people feel free to say whatever they want. If something undermines our sense of freedom, our spirit of rebellion awakens immediately as if something has stirred deep in our DNA. Alongside this love of freedom, Ukrainian society also boasts a disarming sense of authenticity and honesty. Ukrainians are very straightforward when it comes to expressing ourselves.

Today’s Ukraine is a remarkably dynamic society where change is the norm, providing the promise of social mobility and fresh opportunities as the country embraces a new direction. Yes, there are many challenges that Ukraine still needs to resolve. It is not necessarily easy to see the bigger picture when you are focusing on these day-to-day problems, but I believe the developments taking place in the country become more evident once you adopt a broader perspective. In Kyiv, we see more young people than ever entering the senior ranks of government, business, and the cultural world. Meanwhile, the fashion, creativity and clubbing scenes in the Ukrainian capital are so vibrant that the city is gaining a reputation as “The New Berlin”. Young Ukrainians who are part of the first fully post-independence generation appreciate that it is up to them to build a better country.  More and more young people are taking this responsibility upon themselves.

http://bunews.com.ua/opinion/item/why-i-returned-to-ukraine

SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #861 on: September 25, 2018, 01:47:15 AM »
In the last couple of days a couple of interesting articles .
In particular --observations of where Ukraine now stands and is trying to go !
There  are many complexities in trying to understand Ukrainian politics -- these 2 articles deal with some of the practical realities -- and in particular how far Ukraine has actually come in looking west.

How Eastern Ukraine Is Adapting and Surviving: The Case of Kharkiv

A pact between Kiev and the leaders of Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine has limited violence and ensured stability, but at the cost of keeping in place corrupt governing practices and forestalling reform.


http://carnegieeurope.eu/2018/09/12/how-eastern-ukraine-is-adapting-and-surviving-case-of-kharkiv-pub-77216
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #862 on: September 25, 2018, 01:58:46 AM »
A very respected writer makes some interesting observations. Four and more years ago the concept of an independent Ukraine was ridiculed  by a lot of people here on this forum ( &other forums) and the same people who simply did not understand back then-- still cannot adjust  . None of the path Ukraine is on is easy -- the everyday people are bearing the brunt and hurting badly  and doing it hard. The plus is that the foundations for a better future are being laid .The issue of corruption will have to be faced at some time ,preferably soon.

Russian cultural influence, once all-powerful, is also disappearing, partly thanks to official decisions. Ukrainian radio stations — like those in Canada or France — are required to play a certain percentage of Ukrainian-origin songs, and many Russian state television stations are banned on the grounds that they carry war propaganda. Some want to go further

These petty, discriminatory measures are an expression of frustration with a war that doesn’t end. They are also pointless, because a more profound, tectonic shift is already underway. Thanks to the war, and to their anger at its perpetrators, Ukrainians themselves are choosing to speak Ukrainian — more say they do every year.

 Thanks to the war, the different regions of this vast country are drawing more closely together. Many complain that the war also gives Ukrainian politicians an excuse not to do things, not to make the radical economic and legal reforms that the country still needs. But thanks to the war, more Ukrainians also identify themselves as “European,” in opposition to Russia, and more Ukrainians understand that this “Europeanness” means they need to be vocal and organized in their desire for change.


It is ironic that the Russian invasion, originally intended to punish Ukraine’s Western-oriented government, has pushed the country in a dramatically different direction. It’s also a reminder that the supposed strategic gifts of Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, are in fact very limited. His interference in Ukraine has made a once-friendly neighboring country into an enemy
. His efforts to unite “Russian-speaking peoples” into a Eurasian bloc persuaded thousands of people to stop speaking Russian.



Putin’s war is transforming Ukraine


When they first arrived in Lviv, a university rector told me, the students who came from Donetsk walked around in packs, speaking loudly in Russian. They didn’t want to speak Ukrainian, as most inhabitants of this city do; they didn’t want to integrate. Lviv is in western Ukraine, near the Polish border. Donetsk, hundreds of miles to the east, has been occupied by Russian-backed “separatists” since the Russian invasion in 2014. The new students were “internally displaced persons” — refugees in their own country.

But that first year ended, and the second year was different. By the third year, the rector told me, the students from western Ukraine and the students from eastern Ukraine were nearly indistinguishable — and they aren’t alone. Four years have now passed since the invasion, and the 1.5 million Ukrainians displaced by the war are coping better than might be expected. Most of those who are of working age have jobs. The majority say they trust their neighbors.

The integration of the Donetsk refugees into schools and communities in the central and western parts of the country is also part of a broader story: the integration of the war into the consciousness of Ukrainians. Although it’s no longer on front pages, the Russian-Ukrainian war continues. One of the Russian-backed separatist leaders was killed in a bomb attack in August. Skirmishes take place most days, and soldiers on both sides die most weeks; there have been more than 10,000 casualties since 2014. Some of Lviv’s baroque churches have chapels dedicated to the victims.


Slowly, the never-ending conflict is altering attitudes here, leading to what a perceptive Atlantic Council report has called “the geopolitical divorce of the century”: the separation of two countries that have been part of the same empire for centuries. Trade between Ukraine and Russia, whose economies have been intertwined since the Middle Ages, has plunged, replaced in Ukraine by trade with Europe and the rest of the world. India, not Russia, is now the largest buyer of Ukrainian food. Ancient religious links between the two countries are dying too: The Ukrainian Orthodox Church has now formally split from Moscow. Even personal ties are fading: With travel now limited by bans on direct flights between the two countries, Ukrainians are less likely to live and work in Russia, and more likely to go to Poland instead.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/putins-war-is-transforming-ukraine/2018/09/23/d56d5a10-bdd7-11e8-8792-78719177250f_story.html?utm_term=.c6afc0fff5c2
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online msmob

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #863 on: September 25, 2018, 10:45:27 PM »
In the last couple of days a couple of interesting articles .
In particular --observations of where Ukraine now stands and is trying to go !
There  are many complexities in trying to understand Ukrainian politics -- these 2 articles deal with some of the practical realities -- and in particular how far Ukraine has actually come in looking west.

How Eastern Ukraine Is Adapting and Surviving: The Case of Kharkiv

A pact between Kiev and the leaders of Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine has limited violence and ensured stability, but at the cost of keeping in place corrupt governing practices and forestalling reform.


http://carnegieeurope.eu/2018/09/12/how-eastern-ukraine-is-adapting-and-surviving-case-of-kharkiv-pub-77216


Kinda scary that the kind of articles from 'experts' on Ukraine that JayH suggest we need to read use the Ukrainian translit name for Kharkiv and the RUSSIAN one for Kyiv ..

The internet, in the end, was not designed to give people the information they need. It gives people the information they want.

 

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