Odd man on the street perspective on the Ukraine issue

[Gator]

Sometimes I would rather reside in the US, howver with a stable job.

Stable job is the question.  With downsizing and capital replacing people, a stable job is sadly a thing of the past.  However, as long as the economy grows, there is some opportunity somewhere, and the smartest and fastest will thrive.

Even if they would regard me a socialist

That's fine. We would love you.  One of my golfing buddies is a flaming liberal.  His views make for some interesting conversations after we have covered all the sports news.   We finish our beer and conclude with respect, unlike here.

[Shadow]

I draw a conclusion that Liberal and Democrat and Republican and Conservative have opposite meanings on opposite sides of the world.

Lost in Translation

First of all, there are not two political streams but three.
Conservative is right,
Democrat is middle,
Socialist is left.

Next the meaning is the same, yet the spectrum of society is very different. The US is a different sociey as Europe, and even within Europe there are huge differences, as probably exist in the US as well but more hidden for the international view.

[roykirk]

Are they putting guns to journalist's heads? I've seen journalists support Obama one day and criticize Obama the next day. They are free to speak their mind without fear of getting killed or losing their job. Fox news hires liberals and the alphabet networks have hired conservatives in attempts to balance things.

Strongly agree with your sentiment, Billy.  I tell my wife that this is the biggest difference between journalism in the U.S. and Russia.  Of course press in the U.S. are biased one way or another.  The main point is that if you don't agree with the crap that MSNBC is spewing, you can flip the channel to get your crap from Fox News.  Works the other way around as well.  And while there has certainly been notable cases of U.S. journalists losing their jobs due to political pressure (anyone remember Ted Koppel?), none that I know of have ever been beaten, murdered, or simply made to disappear.  There is but one news source in Russia today, and that's what the government tells you is the news.  Anyone who dares to tell you something different can and will have some very bad things happen to them.  And I certainly don't claim that Putin is the one making these things happen, I don't think anyone will ever be able to prove that.  But at the very least he's allowing this sort of atmosphere to exist and it's certainly politically advantageous for him if its allowed to continue. 

[Shadow]

Strongly agree with your sentiment, Billy.  I tell my wife that this is the biggest difference between journalism in the U.S. and Russia.  Of course press in the U.S. are biased one way or another.  The main point is that if you don't agree with the crap that MSNBC is spewing, you can flip the channel to get your crap from Fox News.  Works the other way around as well.  And while there has certainly been notable cases of U.S. journalists losing their jobs due to political pressure (anyone remember Ted Koppel?), none that I know of have ever been beaten, murdered, or simply made to disappear.  There is but one news source in Russia today, and that's what the government tells you is the news.  Anyone who dares to tell you something different can and will have some very bad things happen to them.  And I certainly don't claim that Putin is the one making these things happen, I don't think anyone will ever be able to prove that.  But at the very least he's allowing this sort of atmosphere to exist and it's certainly politically advantageous for him if its allowed to continue.

Who told you that crap?
There are at least 10 news stations in Russia, and they bring different views as much as the US stations.
Biased towards Russia of course, as they are Russian stations, just like US stations are biased towards the US view.
Just do not expect the Russian OR the US view to be correct. If you want to know the truth, wait 10 years and then look for yourself.

[roykirk]

Who told you that crap?
There are at least 10 news stations in Russia, and they bring different views as much as the US stations.
Biased towards Russia of course, as they are Russian stations, just like US stations are biased towards the US view.
Just do not expect the Russian OR the US view to be correct. If you want to know the truth, wait 10 years and then look for yourself.

What part, that journalists who don't follow the government line have bad things happen to them, or that there are no independent news sources (especially in television) in Russia?  Both are widely known and reported in the international media.  Russia continues to be considered one of the most dangerous countries for journalists to work in and has been since the 1990s.  And I don't watch a bit of U.S. news, I only watch and read international media.   

[Maxx2]

Are they putting guns to journalist's heads?

Yes Financial guns the big money hammer hangs over their heads. It's called "tow the party line or your fired and you'll never work in this town again!" 

[Maxx2]

 The main point is that if you don't agree with the crap that MSNBC is spewing, you can flip the channel to get your crap from Fox News.  Works the other way around as well. 

But both of them stay within narrow limits. When a guy like Ron Paul comes around and says we need to shut down a third of the government, abolish the income tax and close down the Federal Reserve both sides unit.


“People talk to me about the problem of republican verses democrat but they don’t get it.  I said look, here is the way to look at it,  It is organized crime.  All you do is call the Republicans the Genovese and the Democrats the Gambinos... The people at the top treat it like a crap game.  It is their crap game and they are making lots of money.  Occasionally at the table somebody shoots each other but the moment anything threatens their crap game they all unite to protect it....They are both controlled by the same financial and corporate interest."

[XMan]

Obama is less a liberal and more anti-business.  He is also the worst President in modern history, even worse than George W.

BTW, for those who don't know it, the business of America is business.

I have to say Bush and Obama are equally inept. 

Bush started wars that could never be won while simultaneously cutting taxes.  Everyone yelling for Saddam's head would have said, hey, let's have some real evidence before moving forward if they knew that their taxes would be raised to pay for it.  I guarantee it.  Instead of raising taxes to fight the wars (look at tax rates during other war times, in particular WWII), borrow the money and worry about it later.  Or let someone else worry about it, which is even better.  In my book, there were a helluva lot better ways to spend several trillion dollars and counting.  I don't necessarily blame him for TARP, though it was also on his watch. 

The buying of bonds and pumping trillions into the economy (and borrowing trillions as well) is the greatest Obama disaster, IMO, although Obamacare is top notch disaster legislation as well.  When the chickens come home to roost it's going to be mess like no one has ever imagined. 

So think of Bush as the lead-off man and Obama batting cleanup. 
What a team.

[BillyB]

Paul Craig Roberts have said many times that mainstream media is owned by a very small elite and their different TV-stations, newspaper and such is valued in the billions. But those values would disappear totally if their licence is revoked by the Government. So they carefully weigh their Words when speaking critically of the Powers that be. Any thoughts on that take?

Foxnews is very critical of Obama and his policies and none of the people working there are worried about getting shot or the company losing its license to broadcast. Regardless if Foxnews or any media outlet is own by a billionaire, they get ratings simply because the people watching it enjoy their programming. Many people who watch Foxnews do so because they felt the alphabet networks are too left leaning and not balanced. The media criticizes and ridicules the President in cartoons everyday. There probably isn't a person in this world as ridiculed and criticized as the American President. It comes with the job. Thick skin is required.

[GQBlues]

...Everyone yelling for Saddam's head would have said, hey, let's have some real evidence before moving forward if they knew that their taxes would be raised to pay for it.  I guarantee it....

Well, FWIW...they DID have real evidence. They're the same 'evidence' that *Democratic* Congress examined that propelled them to authorize the war. They are the same *evidence* the Senate investigated twice for fraud post-Bush administration, but found no proofs they were falsified. They were the same evidence the UK had, even the same as what Russia had. The political posturing in the UN took well over 5 months before the US invaded Iraq. Where's the WMD, who the hell knows...

Moreover, Saddam openly supported terrorist when he granted $25,000.00 for every surviving families of Palestinian suicide bombers, which was against the condition of cease fire agreement.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 687

Both France & Russia, along with Germany, were adamantly against upholding those conditions. Which we all eventually found out why in the aftermath...

Shortly thereafter, Kofi Annan resigned from the UN and Jacque Chirac declared himself absolved to any prosecution internationally or domestic after he finished his tenure of presidency.

[The Natural]

Foxnews is very critical of Obama and his policies and none of the people working there are worried about getting shot or the company losing its license to broadcast. Regardless if Foxnews or any media outlet is own by a billionaire, they get ratings simply because the people watching it enjoy their programming. Many people who watch Foxnews do so because they felt the alphabet networks are too left leaning and not balanced. The media criticizes and ridicules the President in cartoons everyday. There probably isn't a person in this world as ridiculed and criticized as the American President. It comes with the job. Thick skin is required.

It's not about the President which is allowed to be ridiculed as it's a Nice distraction for People to get caught up on the left-right paradigm and miss the big Picture. Obama (if Fox News liked Bush so much) should be glorified on that channel because he continued and increased many of the anti-human programs of Bush. If it is really true that millions upon millions of Americans really believe they get more truth (and Balance, huh, hahaha) out of Fox than the alphabet Networks, then Our Outlook worldwide for Peace looks very pale indeed.

PS. Let me Clear here that I don't think the media in western Europe is any better, so it's not an anti-American rant that some here are so quick to assume.

[tfcrew]

Back on track with the Ukrainian issue...

The Ukrainian President has announced that he will propose a cease-fire with separatist rebels in the east of the country later this week - with the aim of ending violence that has plagued the country for months, according to local news reports.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-president-petro-poroshenko-to-propose-ceasefire-with-prorussian-separatists-9541037.html

Maybe billionaire Prez will pay off the gas bill......

(Reuters) - Russia cut off gas to Ukraine on Monday in a dispute over unpaid bills that could disrupt supplies to the rest of Europe and set back hopes for peace between the former Soviet neighbours.
 After the weekend loss of 49 troops when pro-Russian rebels shot down a military transport plane, Ukraine's new president ordered his forces to retake full control of their border with Russia - saying this could then pave the way for negotiations.Calling time on weeks of wrangling in talks over natural gas supplies, Russia said Kiev had missed a Monday morning deadline to repay $1.95 billion owed for previous purchases and announced Ukraine would now only get gas it has paid for in advance.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/16/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0ER16X20140616

[CanadaMan]

Back on track with the Ukrainian issue...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/16/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0ER16X20140616

....After the weekend loss of 49 troops when pro-Russian rebels shot down a military transport plane,

To me, the MSM (mainstream media) have mislabeled the rebels right from the start.
Every newspaper headline talks about pro-Russian rebels, pro-Russian insurgents etc. etc.   Always pro-Russian something.

Assuming these men are not Russians who have somehow infiltrated the eastern Ukrainian cities, they are not pro-Russian rebels, but rather anti-Ukraine rebels.

If they were truly pro-Russian, they would pack their bags and move to Russia.

[Anotherkiwi]

To me, the MSM (mainstream media) have mislabeled the rebels right from the start.
Every newspaper headline talks about pro-Russian rebels, pro-Russian insurgents etc. etc.   Always pro-Russian something.

Assuming these men are not Russians who have somehow infiltrated the eastern Ukrainian cities, they are not pro-Russian rebels, but rather anti-Ukraine rebels.

If they were truly pro-Russian, they would pack their bags and move to Russia.

But think how popular they would be if they could bring part of another country with them!

[calmissile]

This is a very interesting question. It's very Clear to me that western media is NOT fair and balanced, but how does it work? Paul Craig Roberts have said many times that mainstream media is owned by a very small elite and their different TV-stations, newspaper and such is valued in the billions. But those values would disappear totally if their licence is revoked by the Government. So they carefully weigh their Words when speaking critically of the Powers that be. Any thoughts on that take?

Here's a thought....
The newspapers are not licensed in the first place!  Newspapers typically bias their news based on the political ideology of the owners/management.  There is no threat to printed media.

TV stations are not in fear of loosing their licenses because of their political slants one way or the other.  We have both extremes broadcasting without any fear of loosing licenses.  This is not Russia or a closed society.  For some reason most journalists lean to the left and support more socialism and big government.  It's just a fact of life.  It is also true of some other professions.

The only FCC license I can remember being revoked was an FM station in LA owned by a preacher, Dr. Gene Scott (I think was his name).  He refused to divulge to the IRS how he spent the income he received.  Unfortunately, the government got pissed and used the FCC as a tool to shut him down.  Other than that case, I can't recall any radio or TV stations that lost their license for political reasons.  If it were true, the Democrats would have shut down FOX News a long time ago.

[Shadow]

What part, that journalists who don't follow the government line have bad things happen to them, or that there are no independent news sources (especially in television) in Russia?  Both are widely known and reported in the international media.  Russia continues to be considered one of the most dangerous countries for journalists to work in and has been since the 1990s.  And I don't watch a bit of U.S. news, I only watch and read international media.   

The international media only report crap when it concerns these things. Russia is a dangerous place for journalists, as Russian bandits and local groups do not follow the idea that journalists are untouchable. When you look in to the cases you will almost every time find that the journalist was busy with either local " businessmen" or muslim rebels. But hey, everything negative in Russia is done by Putin....

[tfcrew]

Ukraine's options   Published April 11, 2014Associated Press   Facebook18 Twitter16   MOSCOW –  The amount Russia says it is owed by Ukraine's cash-strapped government for natural gas has ballooned as if by magic —  from $1.7 billion at the beginning of April to a staggering $35.4 billion, according to a letter sent by President Vladimir Putin this week to 18 European leaders.
Here's a look at how Moscow got those figures, and what options Ukraine has.               MOSCOW'S CLAIMS
On April 1, Alexei Miller, the head of Russia's energy giant Gazprom, estimated that Ukraine owed $1.7 billion in unpaid gas bills to Russia.
Two days later, Miller added $500 million more for unpaid gas supplies in March. Gazprom then announced it would be scrapping all gas discounts, meaning an 80 percent price hike that would further increase the debt in coming months.
The bill further increased after Russia moved to annul agreements with Kiev on Russia's navy base in the Crimean Peninsula, which Russia annexed in March. In 2010, Ukraine extended the lease of the base for an annual rent and discounts on gas, but Moscow revoked that agreement after Crimea effectively became Russian territory. Now Moscow says Ukraine owes it $11.4 billion in gas discounts given in advance for the base.
In his letter on Thursday, Putin said that the gas-related debt was actually $17 billion, although it's unclear how he reached that figure.
He also said Ukraine owed Russia an additional $18.4 billion in past fines on its gas contracts. The contracts, called take-or-pay, say Ukraine has to pay for all the gas it imports for domestic use, whether it actually uses it or not.
Putin then mentioned $3 billion Russia loaned Ukraine in December, bringing the grand total to $38.4 billion.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/04/11/adding-up-look-at-how-much-russia-claims-it-is-owed-for-gas-and-ukraine-options/

[roykirk]

The international media only report crap when it concerns these things. Russia is a dangerous place for journalists, as Russian bandits and local groups do not follow the idea that journalists are untouchable. When you look in to the cases you will almost every time find that the journalist was busy with either local " businessmen" or muslim rebels. But hey, everything negative in Russia is done by Putin....

I'm not certain I understand.  Are you saying that most of these journalists were involved in some illegal activity?   

The most disturbing part to me is that, according to the International Federation of Journalists, very few of the cases involving murdered journalists are ever solved.  According to the Glasnost Defence Foundation (a Russian group), only 30% of such cases ever result in prosecutions.  This is why there is no independent press in Russia.  Even if the organization isn't directly operated by the State and as such would be considered by some to be "independent," what journalist is going to put their neck on the line knowing that little will be done if something bad happens to them?

If you go back up and read my last post, you'll see that I specifically said I wasn't claiming that Putin was sitting in the Kremlin, directing contract hits on journalists he didn't like.  There was a great article a few years ago by a Russian journalist who was also a Putin critic.  He said that as much as some wanted to blame Putin for the murders, he knew that it was unlikely Putin had any knowledge of the cases.  What scared him the most, however, was that these murders were happening on his watch and he seemed powerless to stop it.  Even worse, maybe he just didn't care. 

[Shadow]

I'm not certain I understand.  Are you saying that most of these journalists were involved in some illegal activity?   

The most disturbing part to me is that, according to the International Federation of Journalists, very few of the cases involving murdered journalists are ever solved.  According to the Glasnost Defence Foundation (a Russian group), only 30% of such cases ever result in prosecutions.  This is why there is no independent press in Russia.  Even if the organization isn't directly operated by the State and as such would be considered by some to be "independent," what journalist is going to put their neck on the line knowing that little will be done if something bad happens to them?

If you go back up and read my last post, you'll see that I specifically said I wasn't claiming that Putin was sitting in the Kremlin, directing contract hits on journalists he didn't like.  There was a great article a few years ago by a Russian journalist who was also a Putin critic.  He said that as much as some wanted to blame Putin for the murders, he knew that it was unlikely Putin had any knowledge of the cases.  What scared him the most, however, was that these murders were happening on his watch and he seemed powerless to stop it.  Even worse, maybe he just didn't care.

How many cases of murdere journalists are solved in other parts of the world?
The journalists who do their jobs will investigate not just the government but also other groups, and among those groups are many who to not see any issue in killing someone who gets their nose in their business. That has nothing to do with what you perceive as lack of independent press, as the risk of getting shot by criminals does not inhibit freedom of press.

[JayH]

To add an interesting observation about opinion forming  .Recently  --being in Moscow and using my mobile computer(small)  I noticed in accessing some well known social media sites--that my Ukraine links did not appear-the political ones that is.Simply no sign of them at all  while in Russia. And yes-- all were visible in Ukraine.
Russian TV is still visible in Ukraine by way of contrast.
Makes an interesting contrast about real free societies.

[Shadow]

To add an interesting observation about opinion forming  .Recently  --being in Moscow and using my mobile computer(small)  I noticed in accessing some well known social media sites--that my Ukraine links did not appear-the political ones that is.Simply no sign of them at all  while in Russia. And yes-- all were visible in Ukraine.
Russian TV is still visible in Ukraine by way of contrast.
Makes an interesting contrast about real free societies.

Which Russian TV is visible in Ukraine?

[sleepycat]

Which Russian TV is visible in Ukraine?

RT is still being broadcasted in UA.
Gotta show some admiration towards the journalists from RT though, surely it can't be easy to keep a straight face while having to spew out propaganda BS like that.

[Shadow]

RT is still being broadcasted in UA.
Gotta show some admiration towards the journalists from RT though, surely it can't be easy to keep a straight face while having to spew out propaganda BS like that.

On cable or by sattellite ?

[ghost of moon goddess]

Which Russian TV is visible in Ukraine?

'Rain', Russia's opposition news channel 
As for the the news channels that were dumped by the Ukrainian cable operators from their service in late March, the Internet users can watch them live online - no censorship has been deployed to block any media sites or search results on 'sensitive' terms

[ghost of moon goddess]

On cable or by sattellite ?

What's the use of broadcasting RT in Ukraine? The channel's target audience is obviously the English-speaking viewers