your ace in the hole

[BC]

All I can say is that along the way we stayed in 5,4,3, even 2 star hotels.  The most memorable times though were experienced at her home, before and aftere we proposed, were married and 'allowed' to sleep together in her home with family all around us.

It really felt like 'home' and is still like that today. 'Feeling right', accepting and being accepted by her family and especially 'Ma" was important imho.. even unshaven, in undies over morning coffee at the kitchen table.

p.s. even before we married we spent countless hours at her home and only a few hours in the hotel nearby.  'Ma' even let me take over her kitchen from time to time which was quite an honor and we all enjoyed the 'spaghetti night' meals.  As revenge, 'Ma' uncorked her own 'homemade' and was still sitting on her chair when I had already pulled the eject handle and was trying to macro-focus on linoleum floor patterns. LOL.

I've often stayed at the Ritz when travelling for business but wouldn't hesitate one minute to be 'home' if given the choice.

[KenC]

Geez, how'd that happen? That last line was suppose to be: dig potatoes in the dirt.
KenC

[Maxx2]

Maxx if you had taken E on the 5 star hotel route,to other cities,
 would you have learned anything different?

I lived with her in some nice motels in Moscow, traveled trains with her, lived in nice agency rented apartments, rented our nice apartment and lived with her at her house. The house a duplex had two rooms and a long narrow kitchen with micro bathroom. It had no running hot water. There were bars on the windows. Total time we live together was about 3 -4 months in one year over 6 visits.

Would I have learned anything different by living in different surroundings? I doubt it because I was not accessing her on whether or not she was a GCG. I understood such women existed because I had gotten a call from a special agent from the then INS telling me about them. But I could not imagine a woman who was a good daughter to her mother and a good mother to her son could be so ruthless. AJ, take a good look at the picture below (The duplex where they lived was behind them). They seemed like good people to me.



When I looked at her and her family I thought of them as my family. Her son was all boy. Loved "machinas" and the "Power Rangers. I seen him as my heir and someone who someday may help me with my business (I need a son). I had allot of affection for her mother and called her "ma ma" which we both thought was funny because she was only 4 years older than me (15 year age difference between me and the ex).

I was in my own sweet dream world. I was not thinking negative or critical about these people.
 


Did you have a better chance of learning of her real intentions, her past marriages, the scam of the agency, etc etc etc ,
 by living a month in her home city? visiting al her friends and relatives?


I doubt I would have learned about her past marriages unless I deployed a detective. But who does that at that point?

The agency scam? I wondered why the agency was so helpful to us when there wasn't a benefit to them. But they acted as if I was their friend and really liked me.
 
 

seems to me she avoided introdicing you to her father, or most friends etc..
dint wantto do the routine stuff , or certainly not around people she knew or mingled with sdaily,,


Here is a 'cut and paste' on that with all the painful details.

"Yuri" greeted me at the airport along with a agency translator and my future wife, Elvira. My visit I thought went well. When I was getting ready to leave, "Yuri" suggested that if I chose marriage I could quickly bring my wife to America by a DCF (Direct Consular Filing) if I married Elvira in Russia. Elvira smiled and said "I like". He suggested that a man in America contact me with the details. When I got back he did just that. I was not yet certain about marriage to Elvira.
 
On my next visit the following month I noticed a very unusual reaction from Elvira when I asked her about her work. She got very angry. After she left for her work I went to the agency and talked to "Yuri". I told him I did not understand why Elvira was so secretive about her work as psychologist. I told him that she never introduced me to her friends or to her father. I asked for his advice. He sat there mostly silent and said he did not understand why she acted this way. I was a very naive guy. What I was seeing were Red Flags but didn't know enough to know this. "Yuri" seemed rather disturbed and stared off into space as he waited with me for my taxi.
 
After I got to my apartment I got a phone call from the agency. They said Elvira had been at the agency and explained everything. There was a misunderstanding and the problem were due mostly to her lack of English. Her keeping me from her friends and family was because she had feared that her ex-husband would find out and cause problems for her and so on. I was very protective and loyal to her.
 
"Yuri" gave me exceptional service during my visits. He took us to the War Museum overlooking the city. Delivery service to and from the airport and train station. He had us to his apartment for cake and cognac. We went "out to nature" for a picnic. He also arranged for our wedding through ZAGS. He got the 31 day wait period waved. He had a friend there. With all that he did I was surprised that he did not attend our wedding on March 27th at ZAGS. Even Elvira's mother did not go with us to ZAGS but stayed behind at the apartment. None of my wife's friends were there. Nor her father. In fact I never met him or any of her friends. All this happened on my 5th trip to Russia.

and a longer time spent day to day , in her city, would have possibly clued you in more?


AJ, for what I know now and the giant RISK of marrying the wrong RW I would have spotted her as a GCG in a New York second and dumped her in a small fraction of that.

Hey i could certainly be wrong,

in fact i'm normally wrong,
just ask my wife? LOL

but i think it was poor example KenC?

(sorry maxx i know hindsight is 20/20 , and dont want to rub salt in ancient wounds)




No problem AJ.

Maxx


 

[Jumper]

Maxx , thanks for sharing that.
I had certainly forgotten a lot of the specifics.
and I certainly concede it makes a good case for Kens argument.


Nothing would have seemed wrong , given your mindset,
and it's the mindset of what i would think most midwest , or non major city, Americans would have. To view people as inheirently good and decent, until proven otherwise.

That is not a typical Russian mindset..
so it begs to question how do you learn about that?
*shrugs*

[Maxx2]

To view people as inheirently good and decent, until proven otherwise.

That is not a typical Russian mindset..
so it begs to question how do you learn about that?
*shrugs*

Usually either by the school of hard knocks or you get lucky and get some good advice like KenC got a LTP. These message boards IMO are very helpful as well. Big problem though is that "wife/fiancee/girlfriend" loyalty blinds men to the obvious. Remember that song by Percy Sledge "When a Man Loves a Woman" ?

 When a man loves a woman
Can't keep his mind on nothing else
He'll trade the world
For the good thing he's found
If she's bad he can't see it
She can do no wrong
Turn his back on his best friend
If he put her down

When a man loves a woman
Spend his very last dime
Tryin' to hold on to what he needs
He'd give up all his comfort
Sleep out in the rain
If she said that's the way it ought to be

Well, this man loves a woman
I gave you everything I had
Tryin' to hold on to your precious love
Baby, please don't treat me bad

When a man loves a woman
Down deep in his soul
She can bring him such misery
If she plays him for a fool
He's the last one to know
Lovin' eyes can't ever see

When a man loves a woman
He can do no wrong
He can never own some other girl
Yes when a man loves a woman
I know exactly how he feels
'Cause baby, baby, baby, you're my world

When a man loves a woman.....

AJ, I am not joking when I say this but I believe the reason men are so clueless and blinding loyal to their women is because of the way we are genetically wired. The only thing to overcome the pain of cutting a woman off is the memory of a much bigger pain of what probably would happen if we didn't. We are not stupid but just naive and good.

Maxx

[Jumper]

LOL maxx - i dunno about male genetic wiring!
  I'm a nice guy maxx , but more likely to be *wired* a bit bad ,
and maybe a bit more cynical?
  I always thought that P.Sledge song was certainly a great classic song,
but a bit  sappy !! not air supply sappy mind you! 
but well ...
in the past a was  more of a motley crue "kickstart my heart" or
"girls girls girls" - AC/DC "she shook me " kind of person.
I used to play guitar and sing in a busy local rock/metal band maxx,
 but i only did ballads for my own intents and purposes..
and can still melt my wife with the ultra sappy Firehouse tune
" When i look into your eyes" or "Love of a lifetime". She bugs me to sing or play to her often..
but she simply dies laughing at the old photos though!!! (the clothes and such)
Anyway as far as genetic wiring - my favorite *cough* ballad to do was
"She loves my *caulk*" by jackyl.. and yea as raunchy as it is,, girls dug it..
there is no explaining or understanding of the female mindset 
 

[PeeWee]

You guys are gonna love this one!
AJ, jb, Jet and Leslie,
You guys are being waaay too hard on poor Peewee. Why does he have to live like a Russian to appreciate how difficult a life his girlfriend had? So what if he never experienced living in a flat where the heat and water supply was inconsistent? Does that mean he cannot have empathy for someone that lived under those conditions? OK, if he has to live it to know his wife (which I disagree with), how long will be good enough for you guys? A week? A month? Six months? Come on and see how ridiculous it can be?

Leslie said that his wife will always be Russian. I don't know if that is a true statement either. She will always have Russian roots for sure, but people do change. I know I teased my wife Lena just the other day in saying that she wasn't Russian or American any more, but Californian. People get married and live happily ever after with very different backgrounds. They don't necessarily have to have the same experiences. Besides, Peewee's girl has the rest of her life to explain her past to him.

I sit and listen intently to Lena's stories about her grandfather whom she was very close to. I will never meet him because he is gone now. Does that mean I cannot relate? No way. Because I tell her stories about my deceased grandmother too. Sometimes the memories are even better than the real thing.

You guys need to cut Peewee some slack here. He doesn't need to experience everything that his girl experienced first hand to know her or love her. And that is what is most important.
KenC

Huh. How the heck did anyone agree with me on this one? Anyway I did send an email to Lena asking her what she thought about it.

"...it is important to see the foreign man in his home too. I
know this well, but dear, we have the short time for our crossings and so great distance between our countries! Of course, if our relationship will grow up, I will invite you to visit me and sure you  will live in my flat. I hope that you know well that in Russia it is the bad way when your guest lives in the rent apartment..."

Not being a stubborn person and knowing what is important to her I might just give this idea a shot for a few days.

Peewee

[chivo]

the thread seems to have taken a turn, but...

let me give you a version of this turned around. when i arrived in Moscow 2 years ago, i was of course very excited about the possiblilties of living here. yes i knew how hard it was (is) for many Russians, but im not Russian, so some of the things that makes life difficult for them didn't apply to me. i had money, i wasn't a Russian (meaning they couldn't arrest me for nothing if they felt like it) so i wasn't expose to the same rules. being a foreigner in Russia isn't the same as living in Russia as a Russian, obviously. Keep in mind that i had visited Russian 5 times before and had lived here up to 3 months at a time so i wasnt totally ignorant to what i was coming to.

let me tell you that moving to another place in your own country, much less another, (not knowing people, having friends, unsure of what to expect, etc.),  is extremely difficult for the first few months at least. factor in the language difficulties, cultural differences and you can see the added pressure of living and moving to another country where things are quite different from the norm.

i can't tell you how difficult the first 3 months here were. again, when visiting before, even for extended periods, i always knew that eventually i would be going back home to America, so that if i didnt like some of the things that i was dealing with, well, it didnt matter, id be home within a couple of months anyway (again, taking into account the difference of visiting and living somewhere). also, i never had the added responsibility of a wife and possible child.

i remember the feeling i had when i finally found a place where most of the patrons spoke English. what a relief to hear my language after 3 months of being bombarded with Russian everyday. also through work i was able to befriend people (russians) who spoke English, so i was able to build a solid support base here. soon my TV was turn into satellite TV in of course ENGLISH, my computer was switched over to accomdate English. I began to find other places where English was spoken and where English was accepted and spoken even by the Russians who patronized these places. i cant tell how comfortable my life soon became, and how much easier. and im a man who can deal with tough situations.

think of a woman in a new country, possibly with a child, not knowing what to expect, not knowing the language, etc. and then not really knowing the man shes living and involved with and tell me what will go through her mind...and how comfortable she will feel - not to mention what complexities in a relationship this might negatively affect.

now, after almost 2 years, i find myself becoming and thinking more like a Russian. my Russian, while far from fluent, is much better to the point that it doesn't intimidate me like it use to (hardly at all now). i know Moscow better than ever and while its still a pain in the ass to live here for some reasons, i enjoy it now in ways that i have never before.

but make no mistake, im still an American. i will never lose this fact. i can live here the rest of my life, and never will i become totally Russian. i dont want to. i love the fact that i have experienced things as a Russian, that im learning a new language and culture, but to change what ive known for all these years is virtually impossible. i could never be with a woman who couldnt, or even worse, wouldnt accept this fact and somewhat adjust to the fact that part of our life together would include American culture and all that it involves. but being here in Russia, my advantage is she doesnt have to worry about losing any of her Russian ways.

make no mistake, as much as your woman might take to America (or anywhere else western for that matter) she is still a Russian. she will not lose this fact. the old saying "you can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy" is fact, pure and simple. part of what you must do when bringing your woman to another country is make an already incredibly difficult situation easier and by incorporating Russian into your life from the beginning you do this. if you chose not to involve yourself in her culture you do so at your own risk. peace out.

Chivo

[Maxx2]

AJ, we are in different worlds. The guys I usually talk to are more in the Percy Sledge state of mind. If I communicated with a "Highway to Hell" style I lose the last bit of credibility I have.   

Although I gave up street racing sometime in the late 90's it's likely my next truck will be a Ram V-10 Viper. I may even install twin turbos with the larger fuel injectors because the stock 500 HP is just not enough. Damn the gas milage. You can bet I won't be listened to Air Supply when I get that baby wound up.

Maxx

[jb]

Ya know, it's funny how things grow up.  Here I sit, 5 years later, and I'm not married to a Russian Woman any more, I'm married to a woman who just happens to have been born in Russia.  The first couple of years were very interesting, but after that things smoothed out and I don't hear the accent so much any more, other people comment about how "cute" she talks, but she's just my wife, no longer is she my "Russian Wife".

I guess you just have to pay the dues and spend the time to understand that.

[KenC]

Ya know, it's funny how things grow up.  Here I sit, 5 years later, and I'm not married to a Russian Woman any more, I'm married to a woman who just happens to have been born in Russia.  The first couple of years were very interesting, but after that things smoothed out and I don't hear the accent so much any more, other people comment about how "cute" she talks, but she's just my wife, no longer is she my "Russian Wife".

I guess you just have to pay the dues and spend the time to understand that.

jb,
That was the point I was trying to make when I wrote:"I know I teased my wife Lena just the other day in saying that she wasn't Russian or American any more, but Californian" Things just evolve. And there is a certain amount of blending too. She takes on some of your traits as you do some of hers.

I had an interesting evenning last night. My adult kids were able to spend some time with Lena's parents. I was happy for my kids to finally get some insight into their own roots as they are half Russian. It was great to do some shots with my Father in law and son too.
KenC

[Jumper]

certainly agree jb,  (and KenC)

Even though her culture plays a role in your daily lives.,
there is a point that you are married, and your wife just happens to be of another nationality.

KenC, i tease Tanya often about things in our culture she used to find bizzare ,but now participates in.

The truth is a feel a bit bad for her,its kind of a strange transition period?
 as when she returns to her homeland she doesnt feel like its home anymore, the things she used to remember fondly arnt the same, the food , the atmosphere.. etc.even her home there, doesnt feel like going "home'
and even though she is pretty used to and enjoys the U.S. culture..
 and our home,  *feels* like home,
it doesnt really feel like her home country either..

[Jet]

Chivo,
Another excellent post! Many of the points you discuss are things the other married guys have been saying for some time, although it mostly seemed to have fallen on deaf ears. Your thoughts based on your own personal experience going through what nearly all the wives/fiancees do, may just get the message to "sink in" for the newer guys whose women haven't arrived stateside yet.

I think this line was especially well put:

again, when visiting before, even for extended periods, i always knew that eventually i would be going back home to America, so that if i didnt like some of the things that i was dealing with, well, it didnt matter, id be home within a couple of months anyway.

and it's one of the more difficult ideas for the newbies to wrap their minds around, in my experience.

[Maxx2]

The first couple of years were very interesting, but after that things smoothed out

What I find interesting is I hear these vague self admissions from all the married guys but none of you share your very interesting stories in your past except SoC and does it in the present. Or used to.... Are your worried about the frying pan or the rolling pin? Perhaps Dan can open an anonymous column and you guys can post away to really let the newbies know what they are getting into. BTW I am chuckling as I write this. You marrieds remind me of the tough old sergent in "Saving Private Ryan". The one who collects soil in tin containers from all the battles he won. 

You guys could send me all the gory details in a unnamed e-mail account. We will announce to the board that a number of you are not participating to give all of you guys plausible deniability to the rolling pin wielders and I can post it in the married section of this board.

Maxx 

[jb]

Huh???

I posted extensively about three or four years ago about the trials and tribulations we went through, about the hazards of learning to drive, about dealings with the SSA, about getting diplomas evaluated, about employment problems, about difficulties with the BCIS with the AP, EAD and getting through the I-485 interview for Green Cards, about English/Russian/English bloopers, and a lot of other general stuff about the adaptation of a RW to a new home and culture. Did you not see any of that?  I know you were reading the RWG at that time. 

The one difference between what I've posted and what you've seen from Clyde is that I never gave out personal information, those things which were pertaining to the marriage where kept private.  As I think they should be.  Granted, Clyde has been very open about the difficulties he has encountered in his marriage, but he did marry a woman with zero English skills, I did not.  He also had little in the way of prior marriage based relationship skills, he started married life from scratch, almost like a 55 year old virgin, I did not.

Speaking for myself and the other married men, I think most of us have done yeoman service to the board readers in this regard.

[KenC]

Maxx,
I don't think it is out of fear that the first years struggles are not detailed, but that they have been detailed again and again and again. We just need an occasional nudge to tell the same old stories yet another time.

Having a spouse assimilate to a completely different culture is IMO the toughest part of this whole process. I didn't struggle with the finding part or the visa part, but helping your spouse assimilation part was long and frustrating for me. You have to step in and replace your wife's friends and family and explain everything almost every day once she arrives here. It can be very over whelming. Not only is everything so different for her, but there is a natural tendency to disparage anything different than what one is used to. So your wife will even attack your beloved country. Some of the criticism is warrented and some is not. The man has to develop some pretty thick skin at times and wait until his wife "gets it." This is a long and difficult process that seems to go on forever. At times, I am sure all of us had the thoughts "what did I get myself into?" I cannot imagine going through it without a very good basis of a common language either. It is difficult enough to get on the same page when you both are speaking the same language.
KenC

[catzenmouse]

Having a spouse assimilate to a completely different culture is IMO the toughest part of this whole process. I didn't struggle with the finding part or the visa part, but helping your spouse assimilation part was long and frustrating for me. You have to step in and replace your wife's friends and family and explain everything almost every day once she arrives here. It can be very over whelming. Not only is everything so different for her, but there is a natural tendency to disparage anything different than what one is used to. So your wife will even attack your beloved country. Some of the criticism is warrented and some is not. The man has to develop some pretty thick skin at times and wait until his wife "gets it." This is a long and difficult process that seems to go on forever. At times, I am sure all of us had the thoughts "what did I get myself into?" I cannot imagine going through it without a very good basis of a common language either. It is difficult enough to get on the same page when you both are speaking the same language.

Right on the money! Rhinoceros hide might be more appropriate than thick skin...

[jb]

Well said, Ken. (Ken's)

My hide is so thick now, bullets would bounce off me.   

[Admin]

What I find interesting is I hear these vague self admissions from all the married guys but none of you share your very interesting stories in your past except SoC and does it in the present. Or used to.... Are your worried about the frying pan or the rolling pin? Perhaps Dan can open an anonymous column and you guys can post away to really let the newbies know what they are getting into. BTW I am chuckling as I write this. You marrieds remind me of the tough old sergent in "Saving Private Ryan". The one who collects soil in tin containers from all the battles he won. 

You guys could send me all the gory details in a unnamed e-mail account. We will announce to the board that a number of you are not participating to give all of you guys plausible deniability to the rolling pin wielders and I can post it in the married section of this board.

Maxx 

Maxx,

There is a TERRIFIC resource for anyone willing to make the investment of time to do the research. For one, there are the old posts a person can find here at RWD - BUT - there are also extensive archives dating back to 2001 available for the OLDEST discussion board on the internet - Planet-Love.

You can find the searchable archives here -- http://www.GoodWife.com/smf/

Also, the issues of assimilation into a new country and culture are not specific to a particular nationality - hence, the archived posts from the P-L Asian and Latin boards should prove equally valuable to find posts which speak to these issues and how they are overcome.

Take a peek and see what you think.

- Dan

[Jumper]

What I find interesting is I hear these vague self admissions from all the married guys but none of you share your very interesting stories in your past

 Maxx, i dont feel i could have been more open about the trials and tribulations of our first year (not hear but on RWG where you were a regular)
  I cant remember how many posts i related what guys where liely ti experience in that transition period?
while of course stated  the disclaimer , YMMV, as some couples might sail right thru it.

I dont feel i was  vague in anyway..and probably over emphasised the troubles to try to give new guys "fair warning"
Did i give juicy specifics , of some disagreement or trouble?no,
but not for fear or being secretive, hell i wouldnt gcare and never have!

but what would the specifics of incident,  help a new guy?
or inexperienced guy (for this situation)

as to be honest whatever specifically *it* was about at the time,,
99% of the time  had absolutely nothing to do with the root problem.

part of the task of the newly married man, in a cross cultural realtionship,,
is to recognize CLEARLY that whatever *specific thing*
 that is bothering  your wife during this transition period,
, likely has nothing to do with whats really troubling her at the root of it alll.


It sounds more like you want the gossipy stuff maxx..
 so hey -
heres one, (i think i shared it already)
my wife was once incredibly mad at me.
fit to be tied.REALLY pissed. ready to kill me pissed.. seriuosly.
over a piece of bread
When i sat down to dinner,after work. (which i fully appreciated but wouldnt have minded in the least to make my own, especially if i knew she was having a bad day)
she asked sweetly if i wanted some bread with my borcsht
- i said:
 "i dunno ,,,, umm  yea sure.. that would be good"
1 or  2 pieces?

my reply  "umm doesnt matter honey,  2 i guess"

after my meal,, i cleaned the table and did the dishes,,
just to be helpful., i could tell she was feeling down , homesick or something..
during this I tossed the one slice in garabage i did not eat ,
as sitting there it had of course dried out.

You would have thought i mercilessly tortured and killed Surduchka!!
so of course me being the calm cool collected type,
i asked "ok hon , whats really bother you?"
being then SOUNDLY assured it was the fact that
by not eating the bread and throwing it away
i did not appreciate all the trouble she wen theru ,she SPECIFICALLY got that piece of bread out for me BECAUSE i asked for it.. how could i be such an ass to not eat it?

Hindsight is 20/20 ,but I dint handle it well at all.
I was beyond pissed that she was making any kind of stink over a flippin piece of bread.
yeap we had a major battle over bread, to this day i stil tease her about it,
i even informed her durung the fight that the longer the fight lasted , and more ridiculas it became,the more often in the future i would likely use it as leveregae!!
i mean honey you're mad? well of course you are !!
 you get mad over a piece of bread for christs sakes! LOL

so maxx ,
is it fair to my wife to share that story?
you think a piece of bread is what was really bothering her?
 you think her reaction really shows how she is as  a person under normal circumstances?

or does it show a normal person , under incredible stress.
where nothing is familiar, homesick, missing familier sights sounds lasnguage etc..that just "cracked " for a moment and was fine an hour later?

and a husband who knew better,knew what the likely root problem was,,
but unable to do much other than be understanding and patient and feel powerless to actually help in anyway?
but whose patience had been strained
to the breaking piont as well, over similar incidents??
 
see the sprecifics dont count for much..

in fact they mislead!!
as many readers to think .. wow what a RW witch!
 to get mad over a simple piece of bread!
rather than seeing the incident for what it really was.



sometimes showing someone all the trees, hides the forest from view?

[Jumper]

KenC -
What a concise and accurate  post of what most couples will go thru, and what a man going thru this should fully expect

It should be printed out and taped to refigerater door by
 every single man awaiting his k1/k3 RW.

its too bad it will likely stay buried in this thread,, it really is worthy of its own thread/topic.

[Maxx2]

KenC -
What a concise and accurate  post of what most couples will go thru, and what a man going thru this should fully expect

It should be printed out and taped to refigerater door by
 every single man awaiting his k1/k3 RW.

its too bad it will likely stay buried in this thread,, it really is worthy of its own thread/topic.

I will risk saying this but I think of you guys like brothers. I just hope my sister-in-laws will be receptive of me if we should ever meet.

I agree with AJ, start a thread about those difficult first years. Hopefully Dan can turn it into a sticky.

JB, you have seen pictures of my house and yard. Well I am not so sure it wouldn't get rejected by a new to America RW. Remember I have been there, Quote: "What's this?! what's this?!" I look up at the vaulted ceiling and say "It's the ceiling", "No!!! it's the roof!!!! it's cheap!!!" If it had turned out all right with us I would have regarded that as a golden moment or as AJ's bread slice incident.

Maxx

 

[Admin]

I will risk saying this but I think of you guys like brothers. I just hope my sister-in-laws will be receptive of me if we should ever meet.

I agree with AJ, start a thread about those difficult first years. Hopefully Dan can turn it into a sticky.

Maxx,

It is easy enough to make a topic "Sticky" - HOWEVER - the other option is one for you and the rest of the RWD membership. Rather than wait for me to make a Sticky - RATE the topic yourself. In that manner, the really good ones rise to the top - and the lesser ones will sink out of view. It ENABLES the members of the board to generate their own "Best Of RWD" - rather than leave it in my hands - or the hands of just a few moderators.

Please remember - this board is about the COMMUNITY of members - and you have a HUGE voice in matters - if you will only exercise it.

- Dan

[Jet]

What I find interesting is I hear these vague self admissions from all the married guys but none of you share your very interesting stories in your past

Maxx,
Everything the others (jb, KenC, AJ) said is true, but let me try to explain it a different way... Marriage to an RW is, in a way, similar to being a member of the Masons Guild. There are levels, and certain things remain secret, because if if explained prematurely, one probably wouldn't quite *get it*. This is in no way meant to be demeaning, but there are things you cannot possibly understand before you live them.

Another anolgy would be learning to drive car - You can read all the books, watch others from the passenger seat, but until you slide your @ss behind the wheel, you really have no idea...