Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[The Natural]

"Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak says the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 black boxes will be handed over to the Malaysians in Donetsk at 9pm Ukrainian time (1900 GMT). The bodies of 282 victims of the crash are to be flown to Amsterdam.

Prime Minister Najib Razak said an agreement had been reached with militiamen at the scene of the crash that the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 black boxes will be handed over to Malaysian authorities in Donetsk at 9pm Ukrainian time. "

http://rt.com/news/174448-malaysian-pm-mh17-statement/

[Photo Guy]

Yes a plane full of innocents was shot down, but look at the big picture:
1- a junta in Kiev throws out a horrible leader, Yanukovych, a puppet of Putin's
(Putin takes that personally)
2- Ukraine chooses the EU over the Russian CIS trade agreement
3- Putin takes revenge militarily in Crimea and eastern Ukraine
4- Putin lies about wanting peace, while arming separatists with heavy weaponry
5- Russia pursues war.
6- Separatists do not want to negotiate. They have no demands. Many of them are paid mercenaries, paid to kill. The top military leaders/ separatists are Russian citizens. Putin's desire for revenge has a negative impact on the entire region, including Russia.

[Muzh]

"Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak says the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 black boxes will be handed over to the Malaysians in Donetsk at 9pm Ukrainian time (1900 GMT). The bodies of 282 victims of the crash are to be flown to Amsterdam.

Prime Minister Najib Razak said an agreement had been reached with militiamen at the scene of the crash that the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 black boxes will be handed over to Malaysian authorities in Donetsk at 9pm Ukrainian time. "

http://rt.com/news/174448-malaysian-pm-mh17-statement/

How about the rest of the evidence?


Since the black box is NOT going to offer much except a cascading systems failure and the pilot saying Oh Shit!!!

[Muzh]

This just in, fresh from my inbox.


Who Shot Down MH-17?

Today’s press conference by the Russian MOD shows that the Russian government has decided to double down on its narrative that the Ukrainian military is responsible for shooting down Malaysian Airlines flight 17. The Russian case is comprised of two parts. First, the Russian MOD released imagery showing that Ukrainian Buk systems were locatedin the region near where the airplane crashed. Second, the Russian MOD stated that its radars had noted two Ukrainian aircraft, one of which was a Su-25 fighter jet, tailing the Malaysian airliner immediately prior to its crash. The Russian government speculates that either 1) Ukrainian air defense forces were mistakenly aiming at the Su-25, having assumed it was a Russian plane, shot down the airliner by mistake or 2) they deliberately shot at the airliner in order to pin the attack on the separatists.

[fathertime]

6- Separatists do not want to negotiate. They have no demands. Many of them are paid mercenaries, paid to kill. The top military leaders/ separatists are Russian citizens. Putin's desire for revenge has a negative impact on the entire region, including Russia.

Well Photoguy if that is true it would bode badly for the Russian Separatists.   Can you show the members any evidence that the Separtists don't want to negotiate or have demands?  My impression is that there has been some fruitless negotiations.   I mentioned yesterday I would be interested in specifics so as to see precisely what it is the Russian Separatists are demanding. 


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

I just read a link involving Ron Paul and his take on the airliner. 

In this case I agree with the opinions he is giving: 

Here is a preview and link:


Ron Paul Defends Russia After Malaysian Plane Crash
Former Congressman Ron Paul defended the Russian government on Sunday and slammed Western leaders for spreading "propaganda" after a Malaysian Airlines plane was allegedly shot down by Kremlin-backed separatists in Ukraine.
"Western politicians and media joined together to gain the maximum propaganda value from the disaster. It had to be Russia; it had to be Putin, they said," the former presidential candidate wrote. "While western media outlets rush to repeat government propaganda on the event, there are a few things they will not report."
One of those unreported things, Paul claimed in his weekly "Texas Straight Talk" column, was the United States' own responsibility for destabilizing the region. Ukraine is currently embroiled in violent conflict between the Ukrainian government and the pro-Russian separatists.
"They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych. Without US-sponsored 'regime change,' it is unlikely that hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened," Paul wrote.........................................
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ron-paul-defends-russia-malaysian-151731466.html

Overall it seems he has an open mind and is taking into account all that has led up to the incident, and not just the incident itself.

Fathertime! 

[The Natural]

Fathertime,

I'm no stranger in following what Ron Paul has said and done over the years. While I will not agree With him on everything, what I have always admired him for is his insistance of the US keeping away from other countries affairs.

As for this article... it's good and I concur

[sleepycat]

I'm not familiar with American politics so pardon me if I got this wrong, but isn't his son being mentioned as someone possibly making a run for the White House for 2016? With an article like that trashing his own country, old man probably killed his son's presidential bid even before it starts. It will be interesting to see if junior frantically tries to distant himself from senior's comments.

[Erwin]

All,

Here is another one. Enjoy and let me know what you think.
Best,
E
Within hours of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crashing into a wheat field in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine last Thursday, Western governments and media have gradually stoked a frenzy of accusations that Moscow had a hand in the disaster.

by Finian Cunningham Strategic Culture

In a devastating twist to emerge over the weekend it now seems that the Malaysian civilian airliner downed over Ukraine was most probably brought down as a result of sabotage by the US-backed Kiev regime. The purpose of this audacious act of mass murder – in which 298 lives were lost – was carried out with the intention of framing the Russian government. Washington, the chief sponsor of the Kiev regime, must have known about the plot, if not being fully complicit in it.

The key to this dramatic twist is the identification of incriminating audio tapes over the weekend as fake – tapes that were created initially to implicate Moscow, as part of a massive black operation involving the destruction of the civilian airliner and all those onboard.

Within hours of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crashing into a wheat field in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine last Thursday, Western governments and media have gradually stoked a frenzy of accusations that Moscow had a hand in the disaster. Nationals from more than 12 countries were onboard the doomed Boeing 777, most of them Dutch, Malaysian, Australian, as well as American, Canadian, British and several other European states.

Western fingers of blame began pointing at Russia the day following the crash when US President Barack Obama announced that unnamed American intelligence sources said that the suspected surface-to-air missile believed to have taken the jet down was fired from territory held by anti-Kiev self-defence militias. Or as Obama put it: «Russian-backed separatists». The American president did not accuse Moscow outright then but he implied Russian involvement in the incident with the reasoning that Russia (allegedly) provided «technical assistance» in the firing of the sophisticated missile system, known as a Buk SA-11. The missile system can fire warheads up to an altitude of 70,000 feet – well within range of civilian long-haul jumbo jets – with the armed projectile soaring at three times the speed of sound. The system is Soviet-era make, and is also used by the Ukrainian state forces.

Over the weekend the accusations against Russia from Western governments and media have steadily grown to a crescendo. In his usual round of Sunday television programmes, US Secretary of State John Kerry went as far as claiming that American intelligence was now certain that Russia had supplied the missile system to the militia in eastern Ukraine…

Kerry told CNN: «It’s pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists». Kerry added: «We know with confidence that the Ukrainians [that is, the Western-backed Kiev regime forces] did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point in time. So it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.»

Kerry’s claim is contradicted by Russian intelligence, as we shall see.

The American press were also chiming in with the same story.

The Wall Street Journal reported: «US officials believe the anti-aircraft systems were moved back across the border into Russia…»

The Sunday edition of the Washington Post headlined: «Russia supplied missile launchers to separatists, US official says».

So what began as a circumspect implication on Friday from President Obama soon snowballed into a full-blown grave accusation against Russia within 48 hours.

Meanwhile, Washington’s closest European ally, Britain, was also turning up the pressure on Russia over the downed airliner.

In an unusual Sunday Times article, British Prime Minister David Cameron laid the blame on Moscow for unleashing instability in Ukraine and called for tougher sanctions in response. Cameron said: «Tougher EU [European Union] sanctions against Russia will be needed if Moscow does not change its approach to the downing of the Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine.» Subordinate ministers went even further in their accusations. Britain’s new Defence Minister Michael Fallon told media that Russia was «sponsoring terrorism» in Ukraine, on the back of the stricken airliner incident.

However, it is clear from a closer reading of the media reports carried in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post and the British press that the alleged case for implicating Russia relies on a mixture of anonymous assertions by unidentified «US intelligence officials, fragments of unverified phone intercepts, and unverified video and photographs. The latter images purport to show a Buk launcher and its missiles being driven across the Ukrainian border into Russia. It is impossible to verify if the alleged location and time is accurate.

The second aspect of the «evidence» – anonymous, unspecified US intelligence – has no credibility whatsoever given the numerous times that such a formula has been invoked previously; and subsequently has been shown to be baseless or, worse, concocted, as in the Iraqi «weapons of mass destruction» that sparked off the US-led Gulf War in 2003, or in the allegations of chemical weapons allegedly used by the Syrian army last August against civilians, which also turned out to be false.

That leaves us with the third element – the alleged communication intercepts. Since the fatal crash of Flight MH17, the Western media have given prominence to audio files that purportedly relate to conversations between members of the anti-Kiev militia, in which individuals appear to acknowledge that militia units mistakenly hit a civilian airliner, thinking that it was a warplane belonging to the Kiev military forces. The intercepts were supposed to be the central damning evidence of culpability against the pro-Russian militia, and by extension, Russia itself. The files, posted on the internet by the Kiev secret services, were referred to in all the major Western news media outlets as being «a smoking gun».

The Western media frenzy over the weekend based on all of the above «evidence» produced headlines such as: ‘Putin’s rebels blew up plane’ in Britain’s Daily Express; ‘Ukraine claims ‘compelling evidence’ of Russian involvement’ in the British Guardian; and ‘US sees evidence of Russian link to jet’s downing’ in the New York Times.

This political and media stampede to impugn Moscow and Russian President Vladimir Putin in particular is telling in itself of a premeditated black operation.

But then came this devastating twist. Russian audio recording experts revealed over the weekend that the intercepts invoked by Kiev and its Western supporters turn out to be fake. Reputed digital sound analyst Nikolai Popov and his expert team examined the files made public by the Kiev intelligence services, and they found that the files had been doctored from separate and unrelated conversations.

On first hearing, the alleged conversations tend to implicate the self-defence militia in firing a missile at the passenger plane.

But on closer examination, the digital fingerprints show that the files were fabricated, taken from separate recordings and spliced together to give the impression of integral conversations. «This audio recording is not an integral file and is made up of several fragments,» Popov told Russian news agency Itar-Tass.

Moreover – and this is crucial – the sound analysis of digital data shows that the tapes were engineered the day before Flight MH17 was seemingly hit by a missile and blown out of the sky.

This latest discovery makes for some incontrovertible and deeply unsettling conclusions: firstly, parties were involved in deliberately forging the files with the purpose of framing others – the self-defence militia and Moscow; secondly, and more disturbingly, the people who faked the files must have known that the airliner was going to be hit with a missile, or some other catastrophic external force, in order to bring it down with all the horrific loss of life entailed.

In all the maelstrom of Western innuendo against Russia over the doomed airliner, the obvious anomaly is that neither the Moscow nor the anti-Kiev rebels would have anything to remotely gain by carrying out such a dastardly act.

Furthermore, the eastern Ukraine self-defence militia have categorically denied possessing such weaponry and the skill to operate these radar-controlled systems. But here is more potentially damning information on who the culprits are. Russia’s ministry of defence says that it has radar data showing that an anti-aircraft Buk missile launcher was operated by the Kiev forces in the vicinity of the doomed airliner and that these Kiev forces had the plane in their radar target sites. A digital recording could easily verify that claim.

In addition, there are several other troubling questions that the Kiev regime has so far refused to answer: why was Flight MH17 instructed by Kiev Air Traffic Control to fly on this unusual more northerly route on that fateful day, through a dangerous conflict zone? Also, why were the pilots of MH-17 instructed to fly at the lower altitude of 33,000 feet instead of 35,000 feet? Taken all this into account, the finger of suspicion now points not at Moscow, but rather at the Kiev regime and its military forces.

More damningly, given the close dependence of the Kiev junta on American government sponsorship for its military operations, the ongoing deep involvement of the CIA in bringing this regime to power in the first place with the illegal coup back in February; and given the concerted way that Washington has sought to exploit the airliner disaster for geopolitical gains – all that strongly points to a deeply criminal collusion. A criminal collusion that involves the deliberate shooting down of a civilian flight and the killing of nearly 300 people.

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2014/07/21/508850-downed-airliner-fake-audio-tape-shows-us-backed-hit-to-frame-russia/

 
 

[Erwin]

All -

Here is another one you don't see published in Western media....Let me know what you think.

Best,

E

The flaw in Putin’s diplomacy is that Putin’s diplomacy relies on good will and on truth prevailing.  However, the West has no good will, and Washington is not interested in truth prevailing but in Washington prevailing.

What Putin confronts is not reasonable “partners,” but a propaganda ministry aimed at him.

I understand Putin’s strategy, which contrasts Russian reasonableness with Washington’s threats, but it is a risky bet.  Europe has long been a part of Washington, and there are no Europeans in power who have the vision needed to separate Europe from Washington. Moreover, European leaders are paid large sums of money to serve Washington. One year out of office and Tony Blair was worth $50 million dollars.

by Paul Craig Roberts

Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have. One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it. Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia.  Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet. 

The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner. Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive to shoot down an airliner, neither does the Ukrainian government nor, one would think, even the crazed extreme Ukrainian nationalists who have formed militias to take the fight against the separatists that the Ukrainian army is not keen to undertake–unless there was a plan to frame Russia.

One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washington’s propaganda. The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory.  The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists. 

As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media.  We will have to figure it out for ourselves. One way to begin is to ask: Why was the missile system where it was?  Why risk an expensive missile system by deploying it in a conflict environment in which it is of no use?  Incompetence is one answer, and another is that the missile system did have an intended use.What intended use?  News reports and circumstantial evidence provide two answers. One is that the ultra-nationalist extremists intended to bring down Putin’s presidential airliner and confused the Malaysian airliner with the Russian airliner. The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putin’s airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another.  Interfax quotes its source: “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”

I have not seen an official Russian denial, but according to news reports, the Russian government in response to the Interfax news report said that Putin’s presidential plane no longer flies the Ukraine route since the outbreak of hostilities.

Before we take the denial at face value, we need to be aware that the implication that Ukraine attempted to assassinate the president of Russia implies war, which Russia wants to avoid.  It also implies Washington’s complicity as it is highly unlikely that Washington’s puppet in Kiev would risk such a dangerous act without Washington’s backing.The Russian government, being intelligent and rational, would obviously deny reports of an attempted assassination of the Russian president by Washington and its Kiev puppet. Otherwise, Russia has to do something about it, and that means war.The second explanation is that the extremists who operate outside the official Ukrainian military, hatched a plot to down an airliner in order to cast the blame on Russia. If such a plot occurred, it likely originated with the CIA or some operative arm of Washington and was intended to force the EU to cease resisting Washington’s sanctions against Russia and to break off Europe’s valuable economic relationships with Russia. Washington is frustrated that its sanctions are unilateral, unsupported by its NATO puppets or any other countries in the world except possibly the lap-dog British PM.

There is considerable circumstantial evidence in support of this second explanation.  There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit.  Another problem with the video is that whereas we could say that separatists conceivably could confuse an airliner at 33,000 feet with a military attack plane, the Russian military would not.  The only conclusion is that by involving the Russian military, the video doubly discredited itself.
The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.

In my previous article  http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/17/sanctions-airliners-paul-craig-roberts/  I reported on the BBC news report which I heard and which was obviously primed to place all blame on Russia.  The program ended with a BBC correspondent breathlessly reporting that he has just seen the youtube video and that the video is the smoking gun that proved Russia did it. There is no longer any doubt, he said. Somehow the information got on a video and on youtube before it reached the Ukrainian government or Washington.
The evidence that Putin did it is a video made prior to the attack on the airliner.  The entire BBC report aired over National Public Radio was orchestrated for the sole purpose of establishing prior to any evidence that Russia was responsible.

Indeed the entire Western media spoke as one:  Russia did it. And the presstitutes are still speaking the same way.
Possibly, this uniform opinion merely reflects the pavlovian training of the Western media to automatically line up with Washington. No media source wants to be subject to criticism for being unamerican or to find itself isolated by majority opinion, which carries the day, and earn black marks for being wrong.  As a former journalist for, and contributor to, America’s most important news publications, I know how this works.On the other hand, if we discount the pavlovian conditioning, the only conclusion is that the entire news cycle pertaining to the downing of the Malaysian airliner is orchestrated in order to lay the blame on Putin.

Romesh Ratnesar, Deputy Editor, Bloomberg BusinessweekRomesh Ratnesar, deputy editor of Bloomberg Businessweek, provides convincing evidence for orchestration in his own remarks of July 17. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-17/the-malaysia-airlines-shootdown-spells-disaster-for-putin?campaign_id=DN071814. Ratnesar’s opinion title is: “The Malaysia Airlines Shootdown Spells Disaster for Putin.” Ratnesar does not mean that Putin is being framed-up.  He means that prior to Putin having the Malaysian airliner shot down, “to the vast majority of Americans, Russia’s meddling in Ukraine has largely seemed of peripheral importance to U.S. interests. That calculus has changed.  . . .  It may take months, even years, but Putin’s recklessness is bound to catch up to him. When it does, the downing of MH 17 may be seen as the beginning of his undoing.”

As a former Wall Street Journal editor, anyone who handed me a piece of shit like Ratnesar published would have been fired. Look at the insinuations when there is no evidence to support them.  Look at the lie that Washington’s coup is “Russia’s meddling in Ukraine.” What we are witnessing is the total corruption of Western journalism by Washington’s imperial agenda.  Journalists have to get on board with the lies or get run over.  Look around for still honest journalists.  Who are they?  Glenn Greenwald, who is under constant attack by his fellow journalists, all of whom are whores.  Who else can you think of?  Julian Assange, locked away in the Ecuadoran Embassy in London on Washington’s orders.  The British puppet government won’t permit free transit to Assange to take up his asylum in Ecuador.  The last country that did this was the Soviet Union, which required its Hungarian puppet to keep Cardinal Mindszenty interred in the US Embassy in Budapest for 15 years from 1956 until 1971. Mindszenty was granted political asylum by the United States, but Hungary, on Soviet orders, would not honor his asylum, just as Washington’s British puppet, on Washington’s orders, will not honor Assange’s asylum.If we are honest and have the strength to face reality, we will realize that the Soviet Union did not collapse.  It simply moved, along with Mao and Pol Pot, to Washington and London.

The flaw in Putin’s diplomacy is that Putin’s diplomacy relies on good will and on truth prevailing.  However, the West has no good will, and Washington is not interested in truth prevailing but in Washington prevailing. What Putin confronts is not reasonable “partners,” but a propaganda ministry aimed at him. I understand Putin’s strategy, which contrasts Russian reasonableness with Washington’s threats, but it is a risky bet.  Europe has long been a part of Washington, and there are no Europeans in power who have the vision needed to separate Europe from Washington. Moreover, European leaders are paid large sums of money to serve Washington. One year out of office and Tony Blair was worth $50 million dollars. After the disasters that Europeans have experienced, it is unlikely that European leaders think of anything other than a comfortable existence for themselves.  That existence is best obtained by serving Washington. 

Here is the official statement of the Russian Defense Ministry: http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh-17-crash-in-ukraine-official-statement-from-russian-defense-ministry/5392000 

Washington’s propaganda assault against Russia is a double tragedy, because it has diverted attention from Israel’s latest atrocity against the Palestinians locked up in the Gaza Ghetto.  Israel claims that its air attack and invasion of Gaza is merely Israel’s attempt to find and close the alleged tunnels through which Palestinian terrorists pour into Israel inflicting carnage.  Of course there are no tunnels and no terrorist carnage in Israel.  One might think that at least one journalist somewhere in the American media would ask why bombing hospitals and civilian housing closes underground tunnels into Israel. But that is too much to ask of the whores that comprise the US media. Expect even less from the US Congress. Both the House and Senate have passed resolutions supporting Israel’s slaughter of Palestinians. Two Republicans–the despicable Lindsey Graham and the disappointing Rand Paul–and two democrats–Bob Menendez and Ben Cardin–sponsored the Senate resolution backing Israel’s premeditated murder of Palestinian women and children.  The resolution passed the “exceptional and indispensable” people’s Senate unanimously. As a reward for its policy of genocide, the Obama regime is immediately transferring $429 million of US taxpayers’ money to Israel to pay for the slaughter.Contrast the US government’s support for Israel’s war crimes with the propaganda onslaught against Russia based on lies.  We are living all over again “Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction,” “Assad’s use of chemical weapons,” “Iranian nukes.”  Washington has lied for so long that it can’t do anything else.

Source: Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2014/07/20/508811what-happened-to-the-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/

[calmissile]

What do I think?  Your Russian wife has control over your brain.   

It's not necessary to clutter the board with different threads of propaganda.  You could create one new thread and call it Russian Propaganda and put all your stuff there.

There is nothing new that I can see that has not already been published in other Russian propaganda. Same old story day after day!

I am glad you posted this propaganda piece.  This author is so off the rails, he has written material that anyone with an ounce of sense will see it for what it is.

Just a test of sanity, everyone should read at least the last paragraph.  The author claims, among other things, that there were no tunnels going between Gaza and Israel.  The whole world has seen the tunnels on television and seen the evidence of fighters emerging from the tunnels on the Israel side.  It's amazing that some writers don't have the sense to limit themselves to making arguments that are plausible.

[GQBlues]

All -

....Let me know what you think.

OK.

It is as much a useless rag as those it opposes. They demonize the other medium for lack of actual & conclusive proof as evidence, yet the 3 articles you quote is guilty of the very same idiocy.

I do agree about the stupid accusations made against Syria & Al Asaad gassing his own people. That was also supposed to be strongly supported by US intelligence that he had in fact, used gas against the civilian population. Which was patently false and the western media kept a lid on it.

That much is known today.

We freaking almost went to another war because of it. But what we did successfully is arm the same militants that is now currently pestering Iraq.

I bet the writers and editors of those articles are old farts with nothing else to do. It's OK, we're kinda use to that here already.

[Erwin]

Doug -

There is no need to bring my wife into this and there is not need to be personal. That does not show a maturity of 71 year old man. You have never met me and don't even know me.

Do you know you can't post three long articles in one posting?

Also, why do you conclude that it is a Russian propaganda? Did you check the source of the articles? Do you know who they are? Are they not American journalists with military backgrounds?
 

[Erwin]

GQ -
 
This article was written by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts a former journalist with WSJ (not just a old fart like you put it).
You can review Mr. Roberts' complete credentials here: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/pages/about-paul-craig-roberts/

But, here is what I found interesting about him:

Public Service:

President Reagan appointed Dr. Roberts Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and he was confirmed in office by the U.S. Senate. From 1975 to 1978, Dr. Roberts served on the congressional staff where he drafted the Kemp-Roth bill and played a leading role in developing bipartisan support for a supply-side economic policy.

After leaving the Treasury, he served as a consultant to the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of Commerce.

Dr. Roberts was awarded the Treasury Department’s Meritorious Service Award for “his outstanding contributions to the formulation of United States economic policy.”

In 1987 the French government recognized him as “the artisan of a renewal in economic science and policy after half a century of state interventionism” and inducted him into the Legion of Honor.

He is listed in Who’s Who in America and Who’s Who in the World.

[calmissile]

Doug -

There is no need to bring my wife into this and there is not need to be personal. That does not show a maturity of 71 year old man. You have never met me and don't even know me.

True, I don't know you but to find an American gullible enough to believe the kind of misinformation in your posts surprises me.  It is also consistent with several husbands of Russian wives to promote Russian propaganda.  If you were trying to argue some disputed fact that has not been corroborated that would be different.  What you have posted is a full US bashing article that is full of propaganda that has been refuted with evidence.  It is not worth the time picking it apart here.  Much of this has already been argued to death on the forum.

Do you know you can't post three long articles in one posting?

It's not that important.  Your posts appear to have created three new threads rather than a single thread that keeps the relevant posts together.  Was not meant to take a dig at you, but rather to try and keep topics contained in a thread that people can follow.

Also, why do you conclude that it is a Russian propaganda? Did you check the source of the articles? Do you know who they are? Are they not American journalists with military backgrounds?

We have nut cases in all aspects of American life.  To find a few ex-military that fall into this category is not surprising.  The beauty of freedom of speech is something we enjoy in the USA.

[Gator]

Erwin,

Paul Craig Roberts is a journalist with radical views about almost everything.  His opinions lack intellectual vigor, and he espouses them more to jerk people around than to pursue the truth (reminds me of some here at RWD).  He seemingly is trying to appeal to fringe elements.  As past examples, he said Al Qaeda's  involvement in 9-11 was unsubstantiated.  He despises both the Republicans and the Democrats ........

Look at his first paragraph that you posted.  He paints Putin as a pillar of truth, reasonableness, and good will towards all!   This is unadulterated horseshit.     

What did he say about Europe and America not being separated?  The reason the two are closely intertwined is because of international business.    This will not change as long as we have free trade.

Yet Europe does not serve America.  To the contrary, Europe enjoys sticking it to the American business companies by denying business mergers, etc. 

So when I read the opening paragraphs of this piece, I quickly realize it has no credibility.

[GQBlues]

Erwin-

I am fully aware who he is. While I agree with *some* of his views, he is still someone I will consider a loose cannon. The reason I say this is as stated above - he opposes a view without an iota of evidence to support it.

btw - to refresh the Syrian debacle, these were what we were fed during that time:

...The Assad regime, and only undeniably the Asaad regime, unleashed an outrageous chemical attacks against its own citizens...

Here's the UN Report of their investigation on PDF format...

S/2013/735 - Security Council Reportwww.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/...6D27-4E9C.../s_2013_735.pdfUnited Nations. A/68/663–S/2013/735. General Assembly. Security Council. Distr.: General. 13 December 2013. Original: English. 13-61784 (E) 131213.

[Erwin]

Doug - I posted the articles for discussion purposes. I indicated in the first articles I posted that you don't find these articles published in the Western media. And, you began the discussion with a personal attack on me and my wife. You have lost my respect.

[The Natural]

Erwin,

Paul Craig Roberts is a journalist with radical views about almost everything.  His opinions lack intellectual vigor, and he espouses them more to jerk people around than to pursue the truth

Gator,

Roberts is about the most respectable American I can think of. He's about Your age, right? He was just not a journalist but also a member of the Reagan administration. If you were to enter in an interview With Roberts, you and everyone in here would be left speechless in the end (after resorting to off-topic personal insults).

Mr. Roberts is way above the quality of ANYBODY on RWD on this topic. Period.

[Boethius]

He may above the quality of anyone posting here, but that article is propaganda.    What would Ukraine gain by shooting down Putin's plane?  Would it change any policies toward Ukraine?  Nope.

If Ukraine shot down the plane, why would the terrorists, who are directed by Moscow (see my previous post on their Muscovite leaders), refuse Europeans access to the crash site?  It would seem to me they would want every shred of missile to be collected.

Neither Washington nor Kyiv has stated that "Putin did it".  They have asserted that Russia bears some responsibility for the consequences of arming, funding, and training the terrorists.

"extreme crazed Ukrainian nationalists" - This phrase tells you exactly how "unbiased" Mr. Roberts is.

According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit. 

For all his brilliance, Mr. Roberts, being an old guy, doesn't know much about youtube.    The metadata time stamp on all youtube videos is 24 hours before their upload.  Try it yourself as proof (credit for my knowing this goes to my teen aged son and Mr.Mann at the other forum for their explanations - amazingly patient from my son).

Oh, and no expert needs to explain this.  You can do this yourself for the youtube video posted. 

It seems to me Mr. Roberts has merely bought the Russian line (as the "experts time stamp" is from Russian propaganda) hook, line and sinker.  In that regard, I query whether he really is above the quality of anyone posting here.

[fathertime]

Doug -

There is no need to bring my wife into this and there is not need to be personal. That does not show a maturity of 71 year old man. You have never met me and don't even know me.

Do you know you can't post three long articles in one posting?

Also, why do you conclude that it is a Russian propaganda? Did you check the source of the articles? Do you know who they are? Are they not American journalists with military backgrounds?

Erwin, thanks for bringing your viewpoint to the table....Calmissile seems to think everybody has to agree with him...much of America doesn't support what he says about a lot of things. 


Fathertime!   

[The Natural]

It seems to me Mr. Roberts has merely bought the Russian line (as the "experts time stamp" is from Russian propaganda) hook, line and sinker.  In that regard, I query whether he really is above the quality of anyone posting here.

Of course it would, because you're biased dear Bo. But unlike you, I have a respect for Our elders, especially when he's still Sharp as a knife and has served in the government of the EMPIRE.

[Boethius]

He's wrong on the time stamp metadata, which he insinuates means the tape was faked.  That emanates from Russian sources, and it means nothing, as every youtube video is so stamped.

[jone]

Watched the Putin press conference.   Not one of his better efforts.  He appeared jumpy and unsure.  Hmm.  Not much to say differently than we've heard for the past four days.

[AC]

Of course it would, because you're biased dear Bo. But unlike you, I have a respect for Our elders, especially when he's still Sharp as a knife and has served in the government of the EMPIRE.

Uh huh.  "Sharp" as a butter knife found on the bottom of the ocean in the Titanic wreck...


The time stamp metadata is old news.  Too bad the Russkies don't appear to be very clever anymore.