Putin is Ruining Russia

[sleepycat]

At a quick glance it appears to be some sort of an attempt at writing a screen play.
Beats me why anyone would bother to spend that much time writing all that stuff especially when there is no monetary remuneration involved...

[Doll]

GQ, what's your point in posting an incoherent conversation? To really know what's happening on the ground in eastern Ukraine, you'd have to actual be there to see it OR have some good sources of info. There are certainly MANY different sources that say the same thing: Separatists are being supplied by Russia. We know this. It's common knowledge at this point. Are you disputing it? Are you saying it's western propaganda?? What do you like to see happen in this conflict? This should be interesting.

So The Departament of State is not a good resource of info?

[Boethius]

Name the sources and you know the answer.You are hopefully aware that Gorbachew was considered an American puppet long before the current happenings?

I don't think he was considered an American puppet.  He just was never popular.


Gorbachev was chosen leader of the USSR not by the Politburo, but by the KGB.  That came out after the collapse. 


Those who blame him for the collapse of the USSR lament not the loss of that hellhole state, but their positions therein.

[Shadow]

I don't think he was considered an American puppet.  He just was never popular.


Gorbachev was chosen leader of the USSR not by the Politburo, but by the KGB.  That came out after the collapse. 


Those who blame him for the collapse of the USSR lament not the loss of that hellhole state, but their positions therein.

Then I guess it is just the Russians I met who mentioned this...

[Boethius]

But I doubt a majority of Russians believe that.


I would also look at who those Russians you know were before the collapse.

[GQBlues]

GQ, what's your point in posting an incoherent conversation? To really know what's happening on the ground in eastern Ukraine, you'd have to actual be there to see it OR have some good sources of info. There are certainly MANY different sources that say the same thing: Separatists are being supplied by Russia. We know this. It's common knowledge at this point. Are you disputing it? Are you saying it's western propaganda?? What do you like to see happen in this conflict? This should be interesting.

What an interesting observation from someone who post biased western media report ad nauseam.

In case you didn't know, these press briefings are attended by reporters, including (and starring) Matthew Lee of Associated Press, for their daily Q&A, updates including followup presentation of supporting *facts*.

The idea is, you eliminate *media suppositions and opinions* and propaganda like you and the rest are fond of posting.

As you can plainly see, even the State Department is seriously lacking with their information (or witholding of ) in their coverage of this conflict.

Observe: They report, but offer no evidence, of supposed fighters, heavy weaponry and supplies crossing the borders from Russia to Ukraine. This conflict had been going on for over a month in this region. They had been asked many times but had yet to provide evidence and material to support it. At the same time, they were clueless of the report about Ukraine's soldiers crossing the Russian border...

The US had a satellite over the region the day MH17 was shot down. You know - they know - exactly what happened. In the end, they continue with the narrative that it was shot down by a missile despite not providing any support of that allegation. Moreover, they also stated that *the downing of MH7 have no direct links to Russia*. Summarizing that, and knowing what they know without telling and showing the information, are:

1 - it can be safely *assumed* that what they do have on hand about MH 17 is seriously incriminating to Kiev, and themselves..
2 - if they can *see* heavy weaponry, including SA-11, why not show that as proof. If it's a fact and they can provide these evidences, then wouldn't it be considered as a *direct link to Russia for downing MH17* and their declaration there was *no direct link* to Russia as idiotic?
3 - if they couldn't see over 400 Ukrainian troops and half of its tank brigade, how the heck can they see volunteer fighters crossing the borders at any time?

Since the announcement of *no direct link* by Washington, Obama had since been removed from this conflict *almost* completely.

These daily briefings tell much, much more than any youtube and western media trash YOU enjoy posting everyday. But I also understand reading/listening to these briefings likely requires further *thinking* and objective assessment of information being conveyed. So this means it's not for everyone's consumption.

btw - it's interesting to note when I saw CNN's report about this last night. Apparently the Russian border patrol accommodated these soldiers by giving them food and water. I thought for sure they'd put them all in a building then burn the building down. If anyone tried to escape through the window they can then club and beat them to death and just say *they deserved it*.

[Doll]

Случилась страшная трагедия -
у четы Обама родился белый ребенок.
По этому поводу на встрече докладывает Госдеп США-
Россия и лично президент Путин несомненно являются виновниками этого инцидиента, и у нас есть абсолютно все доказательства но из-за секретности мы не можем их обнародовать.
(Журналист) А как вы объясните, что в течение 9-ти месяцев предшествовавших инциденту у президента Обамы гостил президент украины Прошенко? Разве эти два факта не связаны?
(Г) Абсолютно не связаны. Их даже сравнивать нельзя. И к тому же президент Порошенко нанес визит чете Обама как частное лицо. К тому же он мог просто навещать в США свою бабушку, следующий вопрос.
(Ж) А как вы объясните, что и лицом и прической младенец очень похож на президента Порошенко, практически — одно лицо.
(Г) Это смотря как трактовать. Учитывая, что младенец не является афро-американцем, к его внешности нельзя подходить с обычных позиций.
(Ж) То есть вы хотите сказать, что все белые на одно лицо?
(Г) Я этого не говорила!
(Ж) А как вы объясните, что по результатам генетической экспертизы на 99.9999% отцом младенца является президент Порошенко?
(Г) На этот счет у нас имеется неопровержимое доказательство обратного.
(Ж) Какое?
(Г) Заявление президента Порошенко выложенное им в Ютьюб о том что это не он.
(Ж) И вы основываетесь только на этом заявлении?
(Г) Конечно, ведь это очень логично, человек не виноват и честно сказал об этом.
(Ж) А если президент Путин скажет что он тоже не виноват?
(Г) Мы не сможем доверять этому заявлению?
(Ж) Почему?
(Г) Послушайте, вы просто излагаете Московскую пропаганду, следующий вопрос!
(Ж) А как сама первая леди комментирует причины инцидиента?
(Г) Она считает, что поскольку допустить возможность причастности дружественных США и демократически развитых стран к причине инцидиетна полностью исключается, значит это был несомненно акт агрессии со стороны России и лично президента Путина.
(Ж) Но что она сама говорит об этом? Это же невозможно не помнить?
(Г) Послушайте, мне надоели ваши пророссийские выпады, следующий вопрос!
(Ж) Итак вы убеждены, что виновата Россия и Путин?
(Г) Мы в этом не сомневаемся.
(Ж) Скажите, учитывая, что последний год в семье Обама жил президент Порошенко, младенец похож на президента Порошенко, и генетическая экспертиза определила отцовство президента Порошенко, и при том, что президент Путин, согласно данных спутников за последний год находился вблизи от первой леди минимум в 20 тыс км, вы все равно считаете виновным Путина? Но каким образом?
(Г) О, вы недооцениваете всю мощь Российской ракеты, а также дальности ее стрельбы!!! Резюмирую, чтобы такая беда не пришла в каждый дом, мы намерены просить мировое сообщество ввести самые жесткие санкции против России и лично против Путина!

 

[Boethius]

On Gorbachev - I asked hubby about this.  He said there is a new Russian trend, over the past few years, to blame the collapse of the USSR on outside factors.  He noticed it reading Russian papers.  I recall him telling me of the ridiculous claim Viktor Tsoi was given his hit songs by the CIA. 

He said Russia is trying to "switch" the inhumane face of the USSR, to claim outside forces were responsible for its collapse, rather than the fact the USSR was a rotten, inefficient, morally and economically bankrupt system.  So, the trend today is to state that it collapsed not under its own weight, or its own faults, but because "our leaders, to whom we trusted the fate of our country, worked for our enemies". 


There is a trend to accent the positive aspects (social stability) and all the the negatives are the fault of the West.  He said "They wouldn't say that Gorbachev was one of the best examples of the Soviet system.  Would anyone ever ask him/herself 'Who are the people who installed him in power knowing he was a puppet.  How did someone who had never been abroad, whose parents had never been abroad, and whose grandparents had never been abroad, become an American puppet?  How did this American puppet graduate from Moscow State University?  How did the Soviets miss that this party member, completely devoted to the Soviet system, from the highest nomenklatura, was an American puppet?  How did he get installed, unless the people who installed him wanted the system to be destroyed?'"

He pointed to a speech Putin gave that blamed the West for all Russia's ills over the past two centuries, and concluded with of course it is ridiculous, but it will work "with the obscure layers of the society".  He then noted that shortly thereafter, the military budget, the intelligence budget, and government salaries were increased.

[Shadow]

On Gorbachev - I asked hubby about this.  He said there is a new Russian trend, over the past few years, to blame the collapse of the USSR on outside factors.  He noticed it reading Russian papers.  I recall him telling me of the ridiculous claim Viktor Tsoi was given his hit songs by the CIA. 

He said Russia is trying to "switch" the inhumane face of the USSR, to claim outside forces were responsible for its collapse, rather than the fact the USSR was a rotten, inefficient, morally and economically bankrupt system.  So, the trend today is to state that it collapsed not under its own weight, or its own faults, but because "our leaders, to whom we trusted the fate of our country, worked for our enemies". 


There is a trend to accent the positive aspects (social stability) and all the the negatives are the fault of the West.  He said "They wouldn't say that Gorbachev was one of the best examples of the Soviet system.  Would anyone ever ask him/herself 'Who are the people who installed him in power knowing he was a puppet.  How did someone who had never been abroad, whose parents had never been abroad, and whose grandparents had never been abroad, become an American puppet?  How did this American puppet graduate from Moscow State University?  How did the Soviets miss that this party member, completely devoted to the Soviet system, from the highest nomenklatura, was an American puppet?  How did he get installed, unless the people who installed him wanted the system to be destroyed?'"

He pointed to a speech Putin gave that blamed the West for all Russia's ills over the past two centuries, and concluded with of course it is ridiculous, but it will work "with the obscure layers of the society".  He then noted that shortly thereafter, the military budget, the intelligence budget, and government salaries were increased.

It is nothing new. I heard this a very long time ago, and it was confirmed in 2005.
But no use discussing it with someone who knows that anything Russian has to be evil.

[calmissile]

Here is an interesting article and experiment for our Russian apologists.  What do you think of this double standard Shadow?

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-separatism-rally-siberia/26515418.html

 

[Photo Guy]

GQ:,
'Observe: They report, but offer no evidence, of supposed fighters, heavy weaponry and supplies crossing the borders from Russia to Ukraine. This conflict had been going on for over a month in this region. They had been asked many times but had yet to provide evidence and material to support it. At the same time, they were clueless of the report about Ukraine's soldiers crossing the Russian border...'

Have you seen the interviews with various separatists and locals who tell us that many of the separatists are from Russia?? Do you think these interviews are fake CIA setups? That's really out there. And all of those tanks? BUCs? Did Putin say they got these at the local army-navy store? Denial is not a river in Egypt. Take a look at all of the personal video interviews with separatists. Please. Get a clue. There's plenty of evidence. How would you like the conflict to resolve? BTW, who makes conclusions based on what Moscow and Washington say????  Sheesh.

[GQBlues]

GQ:,
'Observe: They report, but offer no evidence, of supposed fighters, heavy weaponry and supplies crossing the borders from Russia to Ukraine. This conflict had been going on for over a month in this region. They had been asked many times but had yet to provide evidence and material to support it. At the same time, they were clueless of the report about Ukraine's soldiers crossing the Russian border...'

Have you seen the interviews with various separatists and locals who tell us that many of the separatists are from Russia?? Do you think these interviews are fake CIA setups? That's really out there. And all of those tanks? BUCs? Did Putin say they got these at the local army-navy store? Denial is not a river in Egypt. Take a look at all of the personal video interviews with separatists. Please. Get a clue. There's plenty of evidence. How would you like the conflict to resolve? BTW, who makes conclusions based on what Moscow and Washington say????  Sheesh.

LMAO!!!

Unless you're the very popular, well-known *Unnamed US Intelligence* that the State Department cannot divulge or share; then you're simply spreading *rumors* or you simply did not understand a single aspect of what I said in relation to the press briefings.

[Photo Guy]

Putin and Obama are both ruining their governments by increasing the power of the executive branch. IN that regard, Gorbachev has made an insightful remark about Putin's reign.

[Photo Guy]

LMAO!!!

Unless you're the very popular, well-known *Unnamed US Intelligence* that the State Department cannot divulge or share; then you're simply spreading *rumors* or you simply did not understand a single aspect of what I said in relation to the press briefings.

Bloodshed everywhere and you're laughing. I think it's foolish to trust Washington and more foolish to trust Moscow. I trust the up close and personal accounts of people on the ground in Ukraine. I also hear personally from lots of people IN Ukraine. Do You? How would you like this conflict to resolve? With the establishment of New Russia?

[GQBlues]

..Bloodshed everywhere and you're laughing...

Nope. I am laughing at you...

...I think it's foolish to trust Washington and more foolish to trust Moscow....

Yup. That I agree and you can include Kiev in that. especially Kiev.

...I trust the up close and personal accounts of people on the ground in Ukraine. I also hear personally from lots of people IN Ukraine. Do You? How would you like this conflict to resolve? With the establishment of New Russia?

Yeah I do. For one, there's cc3 who blasted Russia and pro-Russians for bombing his butt in Lugansk when all the while it was Kiev doing it. The fact they denied it doesn't mean they didn't do it, no? How's that as an example?

Again, I realize one needs to do some deeper thought process, regardless of the narrative you follow, when listening/reading through these briefings so certainly I don't expect YOU to have to endure through that.

After all, I don't complain about your *carefully selected materials* you posted on the board so far.

 

[Photo Guy]

You're attacking me personally.
I'm saying there is lots of evidence out there from a variety of sources, that tell us there are mercenaries fighting for the separatists in eastern Ukraine. You can't refute that. You can give us an example of someone being bombed in Lugansk or elsewhere and I would not refute that, because this is war, with lots of innocent victims. Maybe I'll talk about all of the hostages being held by the terrorists. That's unethical but also collateral damage. Are you actually in denial about the weapons from Russia? Tanks and more tanks. Why are you avoiding my question:
How would you like this conflict to resolve? 

[Doll]

I read breifings of Departament of State daily- they don't submit the evidence while Photo Guy gets them from "locals"
You need to share yout infor with Ms Psaki

[GQBlues]

You're attacking me personally...

Nope. I was laughing at YOU.

...I'm saying there is lots of evidence out there from a variety of sources, that tell us there are mercenaries fighting for the separatists in eastern Ukraine...

I know. I already alluded to the numbers of your biased media suppositions.

...You can't refute that...

I can't refute anything I mostly ignore. You obviously subscribe to such so don't mind me subscribing to the ones I choose to do so.

.. You can give us an example of someone being bombed in Lugansk or elsewhere and I would not refute that, because this is war, with lots of innocent victims....

That would be YOUR choice as I have mine.

...Maybe I'll talk about all of the hostages being held by the terrorists. That's unethical but also collateral damage....

LMAO! You already have countless times before. Now I realize those are materials contained in your very carefullly selected materials so I don't understand why you're now pretending you haven't.

...Are you actually in denial about the weapons from Russia? Tanks and more tanks....

Asking for evidence, which there isn't any, is not denying anything. One of these days that may hit you. Give it a chance.

...Why are you avoiding my question: How would you like this conflict to resolve?..

What's to avoid? I haven't change my conviction with this stupid conflict one iota since it stared. None.

I couldn't give a rat's arse what Moscow/Kiev would ultimately do with this mess. All I would like *to see* is for my country to just freaking quit intervening in another country's affair once and for all. We have a ton of problems facing us at home to be financing and sticking our nose in everyone else's business. As an example, Texas is forced to spend 10 million off the state's budget to put the National guard to guard our southern border because the Feds are slow to react and put the money out to guard the border. BUT they issue almost $50 MILLION to Ukraine to *secure their border*. How the fcok does that make sense to you?

The WORLD is in a total mess and somehow we seem to always be part of each of them. Whether it's in Asia, ME, EE, SA, Africa or wherever. That alone is WHY I would rather read/listen to these press briefings. You can, in the meantime, post your usual western media materials as much as YOU want.

[Misha]

It is nothing new. I heard this a very long time ago, and it was confirmed in 2005.
But no use discussing it with someone who knows that anything Russian has to be evil.

Confirmed by whom? What are your sources?

[lordtiberius]

So The Departament of State is not a good resource of info?

Not really

[Gator]

You are hopefully aware that Gorbachew was considered an American puppet long before the current happenings?

Get real Shadow.   

When Gorbachev came to power the CCCP was already dying.   The centrally planned economy was already hopelessly stagnant.  The CCCP military spending was already hampering domestic programs and could not begin to keep up with Reagan's military spending increases.   The war in Afghanistan was a huge drain.  Chernobyl destroyed faith in government.   The KGB was duped into believing Star Wars could work (Reagan also believed it could), thus making it such a central issue that Gorbachev could not reach a financially needed disarmament agreement with Reagan. 

And this was all orchestrated by Gorbachev  to satisfy his American masters?  Ha!     

To support your assertion,  Gorbachev instituted some Western-style  reforms as a last gasp measure.  Some such as Glasnost and Perestroika may have accelerated the decline of the CCCP.  Mistakes, bad news, and repressions were no longer covered up.  People had more say. 

IMO the coup de grace came with the wave of revolts in the satellite states that crushed communism there.   What was Gorbachev to do - roll out the tanks to "Khrush" revolting citizens as done in Hungary in 1956?  No, He allowed nature to take its course. 

Yes, the eventual outcome angered many Russians, perhaps suggesting that Gorbachev's initiatives were the cause.  However, the death events were already unfolding before Gorbachev took the reins.  It  does not mean he was an American puppet. 

Not to fear, Shadow, your man Putin is undoing many of those reforms.  Watching the news broadcast by Russian TV says that Glasnost is dead.  I imagine that under Oligarch ownership company workers are heard less than under Perestroika.   Brutal repression is back as well as media censorship.  Will Putin roll out the tanks in Ukraine as Khrushchev did in Hungary? 

This opinion in the Globe published this morning speaks exactly to this point. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/russias-soul-is-more-putin-than-gorbachev/article19911344/

[lordtiberius]

Facts don't matter to the useful idiots.

[GQBlues]

::::::::::::::::::::::LONG AGO AND OH-SO FAR AWAY:::::::::::::::
August 5, 2014

QUESTION: All right. I want to go to Ukraine.

MS. PSAKI: Okay.

QUESTION: One, I’m wondering if you were --

MS. PSAKI: Oh, sorry. (Laughter.) Sorry about that.

QUESTION: I’m wondering – yesterday, you said that you weren’t able to verify either of these conflicting – the many numerous conflicting reports about these Ukrainian soldiers.

MS. PSAKI: I do have a little bit of new information on that.

QUESTION: Do you have – yes.

MS. PSAKI: The OSCE observer mission on the Russian border facilitated the movement of 437 Ukrainian troops into Russia on August 3rd. The troops had requested OSCE assistance in opening a humanitarian corridor after being surrounded by separatists and finding themselves without food, fuel, and ammunition. All their attempts to negotiate a cease-fire with the separatists had failed. At least 192 of these servicemen returned to Ukraine on August 4th. The OSCE was not made aware of any asylum requests.We also would note that the Russians have committed to return the rest of the troops as well. That’s the latest number that we have at this point.

QUESTION: Okay. I mean, this situation seems bizarre, no? I just – what I mean, so you have a situation where the Ukrainian army that you support is fighting separatists who you oppose but who are supported by Russia. And somehow the OSCE negotiates safe passage for these Ukrainian troops into Russia where they are not molested; they’re taken care of apparently. And then they – and then some of them go back. This would seem to me to suggest that the situation is perhaps less – recognizing that there is actual shelling and fighting going on in certain places, what does this tell you about the situation between Ukrainian troops and the Russian troops on the other side of the border? Does it tell you anything?

------------------------------------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------

MS. PSAKI: I’m not sure I would venture to do any broad analysis here, given the other events that have continued to happen on the ground.

QUESTION: Fair enough.

MS. PSAKI: Obviously, in this case the OSCE obviously played a significant role here in assuring their safe passage, and certainly we wanted to note that the Russians have agreed to return the troops.

QUESTION: Okay. So that’s a positive thing?

MS. PSAKI: This particular incident, certainly.

QUESTION: Right. Do --

MS. PSAKI: But obviously, there are a range of other issues that we remain concerned about.
 
QUESTION: Clearly. I think you’ve – yes, you’ve made that very obvious. But do you think that in the absence – if the OSCE hadn’t been there, are you concerned that there might have been – that this might have led to people dying, bloodshed?

MS. PSAKI: Well, it’s hard to know, Matt. But I mean, it was a situation obviously where they were surrounded by separatists and they had no food, fuel, ammunition.

QUESTION: Right.

MS. PSAKI: So it certainly was not a desirable --

QUESTION: Your position --

MS. PSAKI: -- situation to be sitting in.

QUESTION: Okay. So your position would be then that they – this should never have happened in the first place because there shouldn’t be a separatists attacking the army?

-----------------------------------------------------  ----------------------------------------------------

MS. PSAKI: Well certainly. The prime – the, of course, primary point is that, yes.

QUESTION: All right. So the other thing that you were asked yesterday about this Russian military – aviation military exercise that’s going on.

MS. PSAKI: Mm-hmm.

QUESTION: You said you were – the U.S. was very deep – was deeply concerned about it, that it’s provocative. Well, the Russian defense ministry says that this is – this exercise is not taking place really close to the Ukrainian border. It’s a thousand kilometers away. And I’m wondering if given that, if you still have deep concerns about this being a provocative exercise.

------( LMAO! THAT'S *ROUGHLY* FROM L.A. TO ARIZONA/N.M. BORDER or SAN DIEGO TO THE OREGON BORDER ) -----------

MS. PSAKI: Well, I think, Matt, the point I was making yesterday that I think I would certainly stick with is that obviously the conditions and the circumstances that any of these exercises are taking place in are a relevant factor, and that when we’re in a situation where we’re trying to reach a cease-fire where the Russians say they want to reach that, these sort of exercises send a different message.

QUESTION: Right. But I mean, it’s really not close to the Ukrainian border. So if you’re deeply concerned – I mean, how far away can the Russians do military exercises without drawing the concern of the United States? I mean, do they have to be in Vladivostok? I mean, how far away from --

QUESTION: (Inaudible) the Czech Republic?

QUESTION: I mean, it --

MS. PSAKI: I don’t have an exact kilometer (inaudible) measurement.
QUESTION: Siberia? Where do they – where exactly is it that the Russians can have military exercises that won’t – that you don’t think – or that you won’t have concerns are provocative to the situation in Ukraine?

MS. PSAKI: If there are exercises in Siberia, I’m happy to speak to that at the time.

-------------------------------- LMAO! -------------------------

QUESTION: Okay. But you still have – you have concerns about this exercise and it being a provocative action, is that correct?

MS. PSAKI: Yes.

QUESTION: Despite the distance, the rather large distance?

MS. PSAKI: Yes.

QUESTION: Okay

::::You can hear the whistle blow Five Hundred miles ::::::

[lordtiberius]

Who cares?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Yeah I do. For one, there's cc3 who blasted Russia and pro-Russians for bombing his butt in Lugansk when all the while it was Kiev doing it. The fact they denied it doesn't mean they didn't do it, no? How's that as an example?

 Funny that Kiev originally said it wasn't them.  Did they ever own up to that bombing?  I still get a chuckle out of cc3 accusing Russia when it wasn't them.


Nothing beats UkraineInvestigations ( I keep hearing this said in a deep echoing voice.  haha).