Putin is Ruining Russia

[Doll]

 

[Doll]

[Doll]

[TheBullRDR]

I meant to ask you, Doll; 

Do you think Russia has troops in Ukraine?

[JayH]

I meant to ask you, Doll; 

Do you think Russia has troops in Ukraine?

Yeah me too !!
So Doll--

Do you think Russia has troops in Ukraine?

[Taz]

Doll reminds me of a woman I dated when I lived in Russia. I still have contact with her. Even though she knows me to be very honest and sincere, she doesn't believe when I said Russia had soldiers in Ukraine. She still believes the Russian propaganda machine. She believes that BS even though she's known me for probably 15 years and I never lied to her about anything.


She wants to find anyway she can to believe the lie there are no troops in Ukraine. She even believed that Crimea had a referendum on independence and then Russia moved in. Of course that was quite the opposite of what happened. When more Russian soldiers start going home in body bags then people will take notice. The mothers that started to want to know what was happening "Soldier's Mothers of St. Petersburg" were then declared "Foreign Agents" by Putin after they started probing the deaths of their sons. The death certificates were blank in the area of were their sons died.


I found a link from a few months ago that I read and remembered.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/russian-soldiers-ukraine-rights-groups


Of course Doll, and many others like her, will think that no Russian died in Ukraine.


In general the Ukrainians are doing a surprisingly good job against a much better armed and trained foe. If any of you think they are up against "rebels", then you are truly clueless. They are fighting first rate Russian troops, not rebels. Sure there are some rebels mixed in but Russia has taken over control of most the fight and put Russian troops in the key areas of battle.


The only thing keeping Ukraine from being totally overrun is Putin has to keep the intensity somewhat low to try and maintain his illusion of no Russian troops in Ukraine. If he put in a lot more, Ukraine would definitely lose but the Russian loses could be huge as well and he loses any chance for deniability. Any normally people, would see that there are clearly Russian troops invading Ukraine. Sadly people like Doll are too blinded to admit to that as it doesn't align with their narrative.


On the plus side, the lower intensity has given Ukraine more time to train supply the army better. Putin of course will be aware of that and will push to make gains before the 50k soldiers called up will be trained, supplied and deployed. While they may not be totally combat ready they will help relieve some of those who have fought so valiantly so far.


Russia has not deployed any aircraft yet either for the reason that it would be very obvious to the rest of the world as well. I wish NATO or the US would supply front line radar and SAMs to the region to support Ukraine. These would be totally defensive in nature and not easy to jam. The Russians know their equipment very well and know the weaknesses and can exploit that against the Ukrainians which have the same equipment but likely older, less capable models. This is something we should do immediately. It will help keep Putin more "honest".


I still in favor of having a few hundred cruise missiles sent into the area to support Ukraine. The US Navy would never be there either, just like all the Russian troops that would magically disappear along with the nonexistent cruise missiles...


Then Doll wouldn't have to answer the question about any Russian troops in Ukraine as just like magic, POOF! They would vanish into thin air and big, gaping craters in the ground.

[Larry1]

Doll reminds me of a woman I dated when I lived in Russia. I still have contact with her. Even though she knows me to be very honest and sincere, she doesn't believe when I said Russia had soldiers in Ukraine. She still believes the Russian propaganda machine. She believes that BS even though she's known me for probably 15 years and I never lied to her about anything.


She wants to find anyway she can to believe the lie there are no troops in Ukraine. She even believed that Crimea had a referendum on independence and then Russia moved in. Of course that was quite the opposite of what happened. When more Russian soldiers start going home in body bags then people will take notice. The mothers that started to want to know what was happening "Soldier's Mothers of St. Petersburg" were then declared "Foreign Agents" by Putin after they started probing the deaths of their sons. The death certificates were blank in the area of were their sons died.

At university I studied history and I really could never figure out how mainstream Germans could have supported Hitler, who created a police state in Germany and then attacked other European countries, all the while lying about his intentions to do this. After seeing a number of Russians on the forums I have gained a better appreciation of how this could happen.

And those people who think Russians might put pressure on Putin if his actions result in impoverishing them and killing their kids in foreign wars are deluded. Putin, through his control of Russian media, has completely shaped Russians' attitudes. If a Russian mother has lost her only son in combat attacking Ukraine and must live in a slit trench covered by plastic, with only a potato and a quarter wedge of cabbage to live upon, she will never blame Putin but will blame the evil Westerners.

And the irony of it all is that they, following their masters in the Kremlin, call Ukrainians Nazis.

[AC]

Hey Doll I'm curious, do you acknowledge that there are Russian soldiers dying in Ukraine and going home in body bags?

I guess since you posted that poker face of Putin, you might as well admit that he's been lying to you, but you prefer to believe his lies.

[AC]

At university I studied history and I really could never figure out how mainstream Germans could have supported Hitler, who created a police state in Germany and then attacked other European countries, all the while lying about his intentions to do this. After seeing a number of Russians on the forums I have gained a better appreciation of how this could happen.

And those people who think Russians might put pressure on Putin if his actions result in impoverishing them and killing their kids in foreign wars are deluded. Putin, through his control of Russian media, has completely shaped Russians' attitudes. If a Russian mother has lost her only son in combat attacking Ukraine and must live in a slit trench covered by plastic, with only a potato and a quarter wedge of cabbage to live upon, she will never blame Putin but will blame the evil Westerners.

While the part I bolded is certainly true of most Russians, I don't think it's true of the mothers who have lost sons in combat.  They know something is wrong and they long for a government that will tell them the truth and give them closure.

[AC]

I just read this story.  Ukrainian soldiers are not fascists, they are honorable human beings.

excerpt
Bloodied, dirty and stinking, the Ukrainian soldiers who passed through the town of Komsomolske on Saturday morning made for a sorry sight. But they were the lucky ones, who had managed to escape alive from an assault they say involved regular units of the Russian army.
 
Having fled from encirclement in the town of Ilovaysk, their column of 70 armoured vehicles and hundreds of soldiers was ambushed and shelled, according to one soldier. "Our vehicles were colliding with one another and our tracks were running over our own fighters," said Taras Samchuk, 28, whose 51st brigade was one of the units surrounded.
 
Many died, some were captured, and about 100 soldiers survived, often "with legs broken or smashed, with shrapnel in our hands, legs, bodies, with smashed teeth and broken noses", he said.
 
Two weeks ago, Ukraine looked as if it was winning its battle against Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, but the tide has turned in recent days, with the encirclement at Ilovaysk a key moment. Samchuk, like many Ukrainian fighters, said there is only one reason for this. Instead of fighting a ragtag group of rebels, the Ukrainians have suddenly found themselves fighting the regular Russian army.
 
Samchuk, who worked as a barman in the western Ukrainian city of Lutsk before being recruited to the army, said he and his comrades rescued a Russian in an armoured vehicle they destroyed near the town. "He told us he served in 8th Chechen brigade [possibly the 8th mountain motor-rifle brigade, based in Chechnya] and he claimed he thought they were sent here for exercises," Samchuk said, adding that the soldier was now being treated in a Kiev hospital.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/03/ukraine-soldier-youre-better-clueless-because-truth-horrible-moscow-ilovaysk

[bagalia]

While the part I bolded is certainly true of most Russians, I don't think it's true of the mothers who have lost sons in combat.  They know something is wrong and they long for a government that will tell them the truth and give them closure.

I think this last generation may not go with the flow either. Russians are not all what they used to be.

Has anyone seen DOLL around here? I wanted to ask her if she believes the Russian army is inside Ukraine.

[calmissile]

At university I studied history and I really could never figure out how mainstream Germans could have supported Hitler, who created a police state in Germany and then attacked other European countries, all the while lying about his intentions to do this. After seeing a number of Russians on the forums I have gained a better appreciation of how this could happen.

And those people who think Russians might put pressure on Putin if his actions result in impoverishing them and killing their kids in foreign wars are deluded. Putin, through his control of Russian media, has completely shaped Russians' attitudes. If a Russian mother has lost her only son in combat attacking Ukraine and must live in a slit trench covered by plastic, with only a potato and a quarter wedge of cabbage to live upon, she will never blame Putin but will blame the evil Westerners.

And the irony of it all is that they, following their masters in the Kremlin, call Ukrainians Nazis.

Larry, I have been giving this a lot of thought lately also.  Perhaps I should not be so harsh on Germany for not supporting Ukraine (but not true for the rest of Europe).  It took losing two world wars and irrefutable evidence of the German atrocities before the German people became humbled and stopped the expansionist desires they had earlier.   My question to myself, is this what is necessary for Russians to become humbled and start thinking about a peaceful existence with the rest of the civilized world?

If so, it might be better to bring about the transformation while the Russian military is weak rather than later after their modernization and even more 'nationalistic' desire for expansionism.  If things continue like they have been lately, Western Europe might as well fold their tents and succumb to the threats of the Kremlin and live under their rule.  Pacifists never win!  You either defend your nation and its independence or you knuckle under to the aggressor.  I would think a review of history since WWI would be enough for even the casual observer to understand this.

Listening to Putin and the Kremlin propaganda, it does not appear that Russia has any plans in the immediate future to return to a 'peaceful' place on the world stage.  As long as the schoolyard  bully is successful in intimidating the rest of the playground, he is going to continue to rack up successes until someone brings him down.  As gutless as West Europe is, they may well deserve what lies ahead of them in the future.  Perhaps it's time for the US to stay home and let Europe fall within.  This would be a huge change in my attitude toward our "so called allies" for most of my life.  Like many Americans, I am getting tired of spending our tax dollars and human lives to defend countries that don't even have the guts to defend themselves let alone them helping countries that are fledgling democracies trying to establish freedoms and western ideals.

The argument during the 'cold war' was that fighting Communism on foreign soil was better than letting it expand and become a larger problem for the USA to fight if it came to our shores.  For those of you too young to have lived through this period, it was exactly the justification for fighting those battles and helping to stomp out Communism before it expanded and surrounded us and  our allies.

I am fully confident that the USA can fend off Russia and it's allies militarily at this time.  In spite of the fact that our Republican and Democrat whores in Congress changed laws to permit the offshore transfer of much of our technology and manufacturing capability, there are still enough old farts around to reestablish our capability in reasonably short order.  With the exception of some minerals, the USA can be self sufficient.  Of course, the investment community and all the Kool-Aid MBA's can't see any scenario other than the Global Economy, the Americans that actually do the work would pull together and make it happen!

If Western Europe allows Ukraine to fall, the USA should allow Western Europe to deal with the Kremlin on their own without USA military assistance, financial aid, technical aid, or intelligence.  Fortunately we can defend our homeland without Europe's assistance.  In fact, I suspect that the USA and Canada would form a coalition to fend off any Russian threats.

[papacool]

Thank you Boethius to explain exactly what was the card about Ukraine. Yes this was the territory where mostly they were speaking ukrainian, with more than 50% of  ukrainian population, not russian.

For Doll, this is an other map about Ukrainian Republic of Kiev from 1917 to 1921. You can see that Rostov, Kouban and Crimea were not russian.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine-growth.png

Doll, in your schools, you learn only what Kremlin wants. They hide you many realities.

For your information, you must know this.

In 1926, in Rostov oblast (state), 71.5% ukrainians and 21% russians.
Rostov was in Ukraine from 1920 to 1925.
It was a big problem for Russia to not have access to Azov sea, so Staline took this oblast from Ukraine, and also Kouban for its food (vegetables, fruits and wine) and for the harbours, the access to Black Sea. Also ukrainian Crimea became russian with Staline.

I know, Doll, you think that Rostov is russian today, with russian people. You must know this, in 13 years, from 1926 to 1939, population growed of 220%, all real russians, so they were sure to be more than the ukrainians.
I give you populations in Rostov (233.000 to 510.000) and the harbour of Tangarog (85.000 to 188.000).

Azov, Rostov were ukrainian since the beginning of 18th century, Kouban since 1783.

If you want to be logical, Doll, Russia can keep Crimea, but must come back Rostov and Kouban to Ukraine.

[papacool]

For Doll.
About Crimea there are many thinks to say.
Putin said Crimea will be the paradize for russian during hollidays.
But there was not water, not electricity and no roads to access Crimea.
Russia was not able to have a link with Crimea. They asked China to work for a bridge. This is incredible. Russia cannot to do a little bridge of 6kms in front of Kersh, the crimean city.
Russia cannot transfer electricity and water at 6 kms from his country.
Near all the countries in the world can do this in a few months. RUSSIA CANNOT.
And you are proud to be russian!!!

Putin said we cannot go to Crimea with trains or bus, so we will create a low price plane company. It was planes from Aeroflot.
Many arrived in Crimea, but never they can come back with russian turists. It was the same in Turkey where russians cannot come back.
So this company stopped its activities.
Crimea didn’t receive turists, the hotels were completly empty, and at the same time prices for food and all became crazy.
This summer, 2 euros, 2.5$ to buy 1kg of apples. Who can give this money?

What I write is nothing with what will arrive in Russia soon. The prices for food, furnitures, cars, phones, computers will be monsters.

In Russia you can do zero with quality. See your cars, your clothes and all.
I know Russia, I was living during 7 years in Moskow.

You will see Doll, Maidan 2 will start soon, not from the capital, but from Leningrad.

Hear this, it is what will happen.



I think the next capital of Russia will be on Baltic Sea.

[Doll]

MAP

[Doll]

Papa, then we need to agree about the starting point- the year.
You are constantly mentioning the USSR  so please remember  that it was founded in 1922.
Also you need to consider  " Ukrainian Territorial Growth" on your "card"
See it?
So, these lands are not Ukrainian.
See "Russian Crimea given to Ukraine"?

[Doll]

Oh, pleeeeeease, don't tell me stories! My ex lives in Crimea.

[Doll]

Papa, here (in Russian)
http://prad-media.ru/ukraine-is-not-a-state/
Исторические границы Украины в Российской империи

Когда у нас говорят о временах Екатерины II, предпочитают вспоминать о разгроме Запорожской Сечи и официальном введении крепостного права (де-факто оно существовало и до этого). Однако при этом как-то естественно забывается, что именно в ходе русско-турецких войн XVIII века были осуществлено заселение (кстати – в значительной степени украинцами) бывших земель «Дикого Поля» – Новороссии и Крыма. Последний был присоединен к Российской империи в 1783 году.

Именно тогда были основаны крупнейшие города современного Юга Украины – Елисаветград (Кировоград, 1775), Екатеринослав (Днепропетровск, 1776), Херсон (1778), Николаев (1789), Одесса (1794).

Уже после смерти Екатерины, в 1812 году, к России была присоединена Бессарабия – Молдавия и Буджак – часть нынешней Одесской области в междуречье Прута и Днестра.

Если это – «оккупация», то оккупированы были земли ногайских и крымских татар. Ногайская орда, кстати, распалась, а ногайцы ныне живут на территории России и Турции.

Кроме того, по результатам второго и третьего разделов Польши в 1793-1795 годах к России была присоединена Правобережная Украина и Волынь. Остальные западноукраинские территории (Галичина, Буковина и Закарпатье) остались в составе Австро-Венгрии.

Русская императрица сделала не только то, чего не смогли сделать гетьманы, но и то, чего гетьманы даже не планировали.

Удивительным образом нынешние «патриоты» вовсе не испытывают никакой благодарности Екатерине за столь радикальное расширение границ Украины. Правда, выступая против памятников Екатерине, они вовсе не спешат вернуть земли, которые она присоединила. Причем, Южная Украина (не говоря уже о Крыме), в отличие от Правобережья и Волыни, украинской этнической территорией никак не являлась и стала ей именно благодаря российским завоеваниям. Если, конечно, не говорить про «протоукраинскую Трипольскую цивилизацию», которая располагалась, преимущественно, на территории Румынии и Молдавии.

[Doll]

Back to Sochi- Papa, on your "card" Sochi is not within that "Ukraine"
You need to study Geography 

[Taz]

Wow, this doesn't surprise me at all and I wrote about it before. What a bunch of cowards the Russians and Russian backed terrorist are.


"UTV has uploaded a video (below) showing a Ukrainian fighter describing his forces are having a hard time firing on DNR positions because they have put their tanks in the yards of schools and apartment complexes and the Ukrainians want to avoid firing on civilians.Another group of fighters describe how they have taken over a DNR position "about 1.5 kilometers" from the Ukrainian position and have taken down the Russian flag from a slag heap on the outskirts of Donetsk."
Here is the link. What a bunch of cowards. It is in Russian so hopefully Doll will understand it. This kind of stuff constitutes war crimes. This is also why I call them terrorists and no soldiers. These type of scum need to be erased from the face of the earth and no quarter given.




This is the same crap Hamas does in Palestinian controlled areas. I saw it myself while there.

[fathertime]

   If things continue like they have been lately, Western Europe might as well fold their tents and succumb to the threats of the Kremlin and live under their rule. 

 .  As gutless as West Europe is, they may well deserve what lies ahead of them in the future.  Perhaps it's time for the US to stay home and let Europe fall within.  This would be a huge change in my attitude toward our "so called allies" for most of my life.  Like many Americans, I am getting tired of spending our tax dollars and human lives to defend countries that don't even have the guts to defend themselves let alone them helping countries that are fledgling democracies trying to establish freedoms and western ideals.

 

If Western Europe allows Ukraine to fall, the USA should allow Western Europe to deal with the Kremlin on their own without USA military assistance, financial aid, technical aid, or intelligence. 

I don't know why you are so irate with Western Europe now....it may be that they don't see the Russian seizure of Crimea as a threat to them...They may see it as a reasonable enough response to protect Russian security interests...and to have the ability to continue to in the future.


Fathertime! 

[Taz]

Here is a pretty good deconstruction of all the lies by Russian propagandists surrounding the Volnovakha bus massacre.


http://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/18/unpicking-the-donetsk-peoples-republics-tangled-volnovakha-bus-massacre-narrative/


Also a very good twitter account to follow in general that isn't filled with propaganda or Russian actors.


http://twitter.com/DajeyPetros


And a very good blog as well.


http://www.interpretermag.com/category/blog/

[Boethius]

They may see it as a reasonable enough response to protect Russian security interests...and to have the ability to continue to in the future.

Given they have stated it is not reasonable, and the EU will not recognize the annexation of Russia, I don't think your supposition accords with reality.

[BillyB]

Hey Billy, wasn't it you who reported that the Russians have Donetsk airport. 

No, I'm not a reporter. CBS reported that and I also supplied a link by a Ukrainian news source that said the Ukrainian military reported they took back control of the airport. Why do they need to take back something if it never left their hands? Think about it.

[fathertime]

Given they have stated it is not reasonable, and the EU will not recognize the annexation of Russia, I don't think your supposition accords with reality.

Well they SAY a lot of things...and the EU encompasses a lot of countries...there may well be nations within the group that don't feel what has happened is fair, while others are only pretending to be concerned...while others accept the seizure as inevitable.


Fathertime!