Putin is Ruining Russia

[Boethius]

It doesn't matter.  What matters is the position of the EU, and that is clear.

[papacool]

@DOLL
I know you, you are in official propaganda organism, from Paris, "Institut de la Démocratie et de la Coopération". I was trying to destroy this during near one year, and you write like them.
I think I know your name and your full story. But this is not important.

Doll, in 1926, all Donbass had only ukrainian population, not russians.
After, SSSR put millions of russians in Ukraine, in Donbass.
These were workers migrants, you understand?
They had to speak ukrainian, to live same ukrainian.
But russian are proud and always wanted to stay over Ukraine, and these people continued to speak only russian, see russian TV, live like in Russia.
Ask people from all the countries in the world, if they receive workers, do they have to continue with their language or do they have to speak the language of the country that give them food.
Only russian living in Donbass cannot do this. And after they see on TV propaganda from Kremlin and they agree to become free country.
This is full crazy.
Imagine Dakota is now German, California is Chinese or Mexican. Florida is Cuban.
DOLL, your education is without international laws, without respect for all other countries.
Russians who are working in Ukraine, in Donbass must speak ukrainian, not russian, must respect the country where they are working, the country who give food for the family.
DOLL, Russia have no power over Ukraine, you are people from different origins, from different language and history.
If my wife is speaking with you, you will understand zero.

DOLL you speack about Ukraine, you surely never go in this country.

You have salary from Kremlin to write here and stay all day even Sunday to write propaganda.

I have zero power in this site, but if admin agree you can stay with your Putler ideas.

Me, I will never write you more messages beacause I know who you are, and if I was admin, I ban you now forever, you and all your friends who are working for Putler.

[fathertime]

It doesn't matter.  What matters is the position of the EU, and that is clear.

I think it does matter...if member states are being dragged along they are less likely to strictly enforce sanctions, and instead turn a blind eye.....In addition, going forward the sanctions could be watered down and/or lifted...so it does make a difference what individual member states want.


Fathertime!   

[ML]

WOW, so this is inside scoop that Doll is a paid foreign agent.

I wonder if she was trained alongside Putin in 'disinformation.'

The training received by both is certainly quite extensive.

[Boethius]

I think it does matter...if member states are being dragged along they are less likely to strictly enforce sanctions, and instead turn a blind eye.....In addition, going forward the sanctions could be watered down and/or lifted...so it does make a difference what individual member states want.


Fathertime!

Sanctions can't be watered down without a consensus of EU members.  Failure to adhere to EU sanctions carries real consequences.  So, your "airy fairy" suppositions are far from reality.

[fathertime]

Sanctions can't be watered down without a consensus of EU members.  Failure to adhere to EU sanctions carries real consequences.  So, your "airy fairy" suppositions are far from reality.

No.  I don't think they are 'airy fairy'...there seems to be some real dissent among the members....We shall see where the sanctions wind up in say 6 or 12 months.   As far as consequences, what are they going to get kicked out of the EU?  That would be a step in the direction Russia is hoping for...it is a delicate balance.  Having a central authority of aligned nations. begrudgingly forcing other less enthusiastic members along is a recipe for big problems.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

There is not enough dissent that a member is going to take on the EU.  Russia is just not that important.


The sanctions are not going to "wind up" so long as Russia is financing war in Donbas.


The consequences can include withdrawal of EU support (real dollars), which is a negative for the "offside" states, as most are small and are concerned about trade with Russia.  So, yes, it is a net negative.  It isn't the big players that are offside.

[Taz]

The dissent is because it is hurting the dissenting EU members economically. While sanctions ideally would have a unilateral effect they often don't. Russia hopes to peel off enough weak ones to listen the effects. Same happened with sanctions against Iraq. France and Russia both traded illegally in violation of UN sanctions.


I hope the EU and the US will stand firm in the sanctions against Russia and even ratchet up the pressure. If Putin doesn't pay a huge price for his actions he will be emboldened to do more. Putin caused a war and conflict were none was necessary. The area was quite peaceful in both Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I traveled extensively in both area. Putin created a crisis in order to further his own ends. Now the local citizens have become pawns in his chess game and they all lose.

[fathertime]

There is not enough dissent that a member is going to take on the EU.  Russia is just not that important.


The sanctions are not going to "wind up" so long as Russia is financing war in Donbas.


The consequences can include withdrawal of EU support (real dollars), which is a negative for the "offside" states, as most are small and are concerned about trade with Russia.  So, yes, it is a net negative.  It isn't the big players that are offside.

By the way you describe it, it sounds a little like those smaller EU nations are being told what to do by the larger and more numerous larger nations...and their possible dissent is dealt with by financial consequences....I wonder if it came to that, if they would accept the consequence, or decide to break off of the EU.  I hold that the majority of EU members does have limits on what it can impose on the minority, and still keep the minority in their orbit.


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

By the way you describe it, it sounds a little like those smaller EU nations are being told what to do by the larger and more numerous larger nations...and their possible dissent is dealt with by financial consequences....I wonder if it came to that, if they would accept the consequence, or decide to break off of the EU.  I hold that the majority of EU members does have limits on what it can impose on the minority, and still keep the minority in their orbit.


Fathertime!

They are net drains on EU finances.  Russia isn't going to replace EU dollars.  So, the answer is pretty obvious.

[fathertime]

They are net drains on EU finances.  Russia isn't going to replace EU dollars.  So, the answer is pretty obvious.

From what I'm gathering, you are saying that the larger EU nations need to continue feeding them financially...and that will keep them in the union (and opposed to Russia)...if they oppose they are financially cut off....That helps clarify why Russia would like to keep Ukraine from joining the EU someday.  It really all comes down to bucks.   Another question that is begged is for how long would the populace of the larger nations agree to subsidize (at their personal expense) the smaller nations for, and for what reason? 


Fathertime!   

[Muzh]

From what I'm gathering, you are saying that the larger EU nations need to continue feeding them financially...and that will keep them in the union (and opposed to Russia)...if they oppose they are financially cut off....That helps clarify why Russia would like to keep Ukraine from joining the EU someday.  It really all comes down to bucks.   Another question that is begged is for how long would the populace of the larger nations agree to subsidize (at their personal expense) the smaller nations for, and for what reason? 


Fathertime!   

You are missing a tiny wee little fact.


Ukraine was told under no uncertain terms (by the EU) that they will NOT be part of the EU until they clean their house first.


The majority of Ukrainians KNOW that.


Now go back to your theories.

[calmissile]

The dissent is because it is hurting the dissenting EU members economically. While sanctions ideally would have a unilateral effect they often don't. Russia hopes to peel off enough weak ones to listen the effects. Same happened with sanctions against Iraq. France and Russia both traded illegally in violation of UN sanctions.


I hope the EU and the US will stand firm in the sanctions against Russia and even ratchet up the pressure. If Putin doesn't pay a huge price for his actions he will be emboldened to do more. Putin caused a war and conflict were none was necessary. The area was quite peaceful in both Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I traveled extensively in both area. Putin created a crisis in order to further his own ends. Now the local citizens have become pawns in his chess game and they all lose.

Excellent post.  I am enjoying reading your contributions to the topics.

I hope the EU and the US will stand firm in the sanctions against Russia and even ratchet up the pressure.

Agree 100%

If Putin doesn't pay a huge price for his actions he will be emboldened to do more.

And he will!  History is hard to ignore.

Putin caused a war and conflict were none was necessary. The area was quite peaceful in both Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

Agree 100%.  I also arrived at the same conclusion after traveling all over Ukraine and Crimea.

Putin created a crisis in order to further his own ends.

This is part of the big lie.  The Kremlin and some members here claim that this conflict is necessary for Russia's (military) security interests.  This is the same idiotic excuse used previously.  Does anyone with even one brain cell think that Russia needs a large military to protect itself from foreign invasion?  It is all about having a large powerful military to intimidate other nations and invade them when they think they can get away with it.   

[fathertime]

You are missing a tiny wee little fact.


Ukraine was told under no uncertain terms (by the EU) that they will NOT be part of the EU until they clean their house first.


The majority of Ukrainians KNOW that.


Now go back to your theories.

Well Muzh, that may be true...I'm not saying it isn't....Could it be that in the zeal to get Ukraine in their orbit, the EU might overlook some of the details, which can perhaps be worked on later?    YES it is theory.   


Perhaps overall having the whole of Ukraine, joining an alliance that is not friendly to Russian interests (internationally) is something that Russia won't accept.  Perhaps part of it can be carved up and 'given' to the EU and another part stays in Russia's orbit.   


Fathertime!

[jone]

I read this summary of thought in the Moscow Times today and I thought it appropriate.  I don't know if it was already posted, but if it was, I apologize. 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-will-stick-with-putin-till-the-bitter-end/514371.html

I found the following paragraphs particularly compelling:

In summary the author states that in the current mindset:

• Without Putin, there can be no Russia.

• Isolationism — the course that Putin will pursue until the end of his life or rule, one that places Russia among the enemies of the West.

• The country will not undertake any fundamental reforms on its own initiative.

The last point — the complete rejection of any progressive development — is the end result of Russia's 25 years of post-Soviet transition. It is obvious that the post-Crimea social contract will shift Russia from the status of a weak democracy to that of a regime controlled by a single man. Now, Russia's future depends on Putin alone — his moods, his personal health and his eventual departure or death.

Comments on social networks indicate that many thousands of people clearly understand that this new social contract contains a ticking time bomb. They know that Russia can end its current isolation and embark on the path of reform only as the result of a large-scale civil conflict, a major military defeat of Russia's armed forces or else a fundamental economic collapse. The "Ukrainization" of Russian politics has devoured this country's future.

[fathertime]

Putin created a crisis in order to further his own ends.

This is part of the big lie.  The Kremlin and some members here claim that this conflict is necessary for Russia's (military) security interests.  This is the same idiotic excuse used previously.  Does anyone with even one brain cell think that Russia needs a large military to protect itself from foreign invasion?  It is all about having a large powerful military to intimidate other nations and invade them when they think they can get away with it.   

That is a little ridiculous.  It isn't about a foreign invasion of Russia. And it certainly isn't about Russia willy nilly trying to intimidate other nations for no reason.  Your thinking is wayyyyyy to simplistic, but thinking the way you do, I can see why you would like to see a strong military response...which hopefully Obama holds the line against.


Fathertime!   

[Gylden]

From what I'm gathering, you are saying that the larger EU nations need to continue feeding them financially...and that will keep them in the union (and opposed to Russia)...if they oppose they are financially cut off....That helps clarify why Russia would like to keep Ukraine from joining the EU someday.  It really all comes down to bucks.   Another question that is begged is for how long would the populace of the larger nations agree to subsidize (at their personal expense) the smaller nations for, and for what reason? 


Fathertime!   

"Originally, the European Union was formed to create a closer political and economic bond between European nations after World War II to help prevent another occurrence of major war  by encouraging mutual assistance and cooperation. Its principal objectives are to establish European citizenship, "ensure freedom, security and justice," "promote economic and social progress," and "assert Europe's role in the world"

[mendeleyev]

That helps clarify why Russia would like to keep Ukraine from joining the EU someday

FT, there is nothing that needs clarification. You seem to think that this is some complicated issue--sorry, it is not.

Let me give you the perspective of Mr. Putin, as I happen to know that perspective.

- The Eurasian Union cannot compete with the EU with just Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Armenia.
- He needs Ukraine in the group. Period.
- Ukraine is larger, and has more in terms of population and potential trading power than Kazakhstan, Belarus and Armenia combined.
- He needs Ukraine in the group. Period.

When he whined to EU ministers present at the 26 August Minsk Summit, his beef was not about supposed Nazi's in Kyiv, he didn't whine about the rights of Russian speakers in the East (they were NEVER prohibited from speaking Russian, anyway), and he did not whine about referendums. No,instead he lashed out at EU High Representative Catherine Ashton because the Europeans had not "asked permission" (of the Kremlin) before making overtures to Kyiv.

I repeat, as you seem hesitant about this: Without Ukraine, there will be no Eurasian Union. Putin needs Ukraine to be in Eurasian Union. Period.

[mendeleyev]

Perhaps part of it can be carved up and 'given' to the EU and another part stays in Russia's orbit.

Perhaps we can carve off parts of Russia and give to the EU, while we're at it. The Baltic states would likely appreciate a buffer zone between themselves and Russia. So would Finland, and since we're in the mood to carve, Azerbaijan and Georgia would like some buffering, too. Hell, we could give back St Petersburg to the Swedish, Crimea back to the Tatars, and I know for certain that China and Japan would like to have a seat at the carving table, as well.

(Wait, my phone is ringing.) Okay, that was Angela on the line. She likes your plan--and she wants the keys to Kaliningrad, pronto.

Sharpen those carving knives!

[Brasscasing]

I think it does matter...if member states are being dragged along they are less likely to strictly enforce sanctions, and instead turn a blind eye.....In addition, going forward the sanctions could be watered down and/or lifted...so it does make a difference what individual member states want.

The EU parliament doesn't work like that. The Parliament is comprised of delegates from member nations. Those delegates are members of different parties spanning the political spectrum from far right (or neo) conservative to far left socialist, the majority of parties are centrist.

A resolution was put forward to lift the sanctions, it was voted on and the results were as follows:

For 110 (16%) Against 536 (80%) Abstentions 26 (4%)

That is an overwhelming majority by any standard.

Individual delegates from member nations vote along their party lines for the most part. So a far right party member from Slovakia might vote for lifting the sanctions whereas a far left party member also from Slovakia might vote to uphold the sanctions. They do not vote in national block.

Where I believe the media is getting those seven countries that apparently want the sanctions lifted from is that the nationalist delegates voted to lift the sanctions. The vote breakdown by individual delegates can be found here:

http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-situation-in-ukraine-joint-motion-for-resolution-paragraph-7-amendment-13d.html#/

The votewatch website will tell you how the EU parliament is comprised, vote breakdowns and commentary as well.

From the EU about website page below...

..."The Members of the European Parliament sit in political groups – they are not organised by nationality, but by political affiliation. There are currently 7 political groups in the European Parliament."...]

The composition of the individual parties and their political leanings (thru link) can be found here...

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/007f2537e0/Political-groups.html

From what I've read, it's is the far right that consistently vote for lifting sanctions and support Russia/Putin and the centrists and far left that vote to uphold sanctions and support pro Ukraine policies in general.

Brass

[Boethius]

Excellent summary, Brass.


Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the EU's far right parties get funding from Russia.

[Muzh]

Could it be that in the zeal to get Ukraine in their orbit, the EU might overlook some of the details, which can perhaps be worked on later?   


Fathertime!

No

[Brasscasing]

Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the EU's far right parties get funding from Russia.

Good point, Boe. Nothing like a little western style vote buying to grease the wheels.

Brass

[calmissile]

"Originally, the European Union was formed to create a closer political and economic bond between European nations after World War II to help prevent another occurrence of major war  by encouraging mutual assistance and cooperation. Its principal objectives are to establish European citizenship, "ensure freedom, security and justice," "promote economic and social progress," and "assert Europe's role in the world"

Thank you Gylden for the post.  Now, one would think that these lofty objectives of the EU would be good for Russia also.  Nope!  The arrogance of Russians feel that no one is going to tell them what to do.  So, once again we have a European quasi-dictator with expansionist ideals creating conflicts in Europe.  As I indicated in another post, it really should be up to Europe to deal with fighting off these threats.   

Whether we want to admit it or not, Europe is in the beginning of a new Cold War with Russia.  Putin was smart to pick off the weak and smaller countries first.  He can consolidate his acquisitions without stirring the wrath of larger nations leading to WWIII.  The questions that remain are how many acquisitions in Europe will he get away with before the rest of Europe has the courage and means to put a stop to it?  It would be much cheaper to stop it now in terms of money and lives rather than later on.

Hopefully,  Western European leaders are not going to come begging the USA for military support later on.  If the gutless wonders will not support Ukraine in a meaningful fashion when it could have blocked Russian aggression, then I feel we should let them fight them alone without losing any American lives or American tax dollars.

We seem to be obsessed with monitoring battle lines and number of dead on a daily basis while totally ignoring the big picture and the historical precedent that suggests how this is going to unfold in the next few years.

[Chelseaboy]

Gutless wonders ?

Where were you during the Battle of Britain ?

Where were you when we  were getting blitzed by the Germans ?

You lot didn't want to get involved until Pearl Harbour,and you had no choice..you're the gutless wonders...all mouth....and Putin knows it.

When you got into a war without the Brits covering your back..Vietnam..you got your arses handed to you.