The Myth of Russian Humiliation

[fathertime]

What I wish for Ukraine:


- While I might wish for the return of Crimea, that just is not going to happen in my lifetime.

- True federalization in which regions, such as the Eastern provinces, can exercise local autonomy as part of a larger federation.

Wow I'm glad you have said these things...I've mentioned similar sentiments perhaps 9 months ago and became a lightening rod of furious anger and attempted denigration!  You deservedly  have much more experience/credibility here so maybe people will now see what you say as reasonable, I certainly do.  A Federation is a potential imperfect avenue to getting this crisis solved...and yeah forget about Crimea...for better or worse that isn't coming back...even formal reparations maybe a 'bridge too far'...the sanctions are applying a cost though. 


Fathertime!   


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

I disagree about federation.  It will not resolve the conflict in Donbas.  Furthermore, in polls within the region, even with a very reduced population, over 25% of the populace supports Ukraine.  So, the numbers of locals who support independence/union with Russia is rather small.

[AC]

- Join the world community, and as a large country with vast potential, be considered a world leader. Such a position is earned however, something the current leadership has not learned.

Unfortunately because of the actions of the current leadership, which is likely going to be around another 5 years or so, the rest of the World may not trust the word of Russia again for long after.

[mendeleyev]

I disagree about federation.  It will not resolve the conflict in Donbas.

Bo, I understand your sentiments. Note that I also support federalization for Russia, which is also supported in the Russian Federation constitution, although it has been illegally dismantled by the current government. Putin is a hypocrite for calling for federalization in Ukraine, but denying the same constitutional guarantee to his own people.

Were Moscow to recall her "citizens fighting while on holiday" and mercenaries from Eastern Ukraine, real progress could be realized. By the way, thanks to the French who yesterday laid down just those type conditions as a requirement for delivery of the Mistrail warships.

[mendeleyev]

There is so much I disagree with, it is infuriating. 

Russia will get what it's coming to them.  The demographic impolsion, economic chaos and political unrest will make the Middle East look like kindergarten.

My assignments to Syria, Lebanon and Egypt lead me to assume that you are reacting with your emotions, not your brain. And, I do believe that sometimes you have a very good brain.

The ideals I posted would be good for most societies, and were those things true across the planet, the world would be a better and more peaceful place.

[AC]

Note that I also support federalization for Russia, which is also supported in the Russian Federation constitution, although it has been illegally dismantled by the current government. Putin is a hypocrite for calling for federalization in Ukraine, but denying the same constitutional guarantee to his own people.

Typical doublespeak for a dictator.  Do as I say, not as I do.

He also claims on the one hand not to be sending troops and war material to E. Ukraine and then later in the same conversation adamantly says that Russia will not allow Ukraine to do what they want to do.  So which one is it, Putinocchio?

[Boethius]

Bo, I understand your sentiments. Note that I also support federalization for Russia, which is also supported in the Russian Federation constitution, although it has been illegally dismantled by the current government. Putin is a hypocrite for calling for federalization in Ukraine, but denying the same constitutional guarantee to his own people.

Were Moscow to recall her "citizens fighting while on holiday" and mercenaries from Eastern Ukraine, real progress could be realized. By the way, thanks to the French who yesterday laid down just those type conditions as a requirement for delivery of the Mistrail warships.

I agree Putin is a hypocrite.  I just don't see federalization as any sort of win, or even a compromise, for Kyiv.

[lordtiberius]

My assignments to Syria, Lebanon and Egypt lead me to assume that you are reacting with your emotions, not your brain. And, I do believe that sometimes you have a very good brain.

The ideals I posted would be good for most societies, and were those things true across the planet, the world would be a better and more peaceful place.

You are a Russian patriot.  So we can forgive you for your sympathies.  How can you justify holding Crimea?

[AC]

I agree Putin is a hypocrite.  I just don't see federalization as any sort of win, or even a compromise, for Kyiv.

Most assuredly correct.  Ukraine and Poroshenko are in no mood to take any sort of orders from Putin and his Russia.  Ukrainians simply no longer trust Russia and it will be long after Putin is gone until they do again.

[lordtiberius]

I agree Putin is a hypocrite.  I just don't see federalization as any sort of win, or even a compromise, for Kyiv.

Why should Ukraine consent to yet another humiliation?

[AC]

You are a Russian patriot.  So we can forgive you for your sympathies.  How can you justify holding Crimea?

I don't think he justifies it, he only recognizes reality of Putin and Russia never wanting to give it back.

[lordtiberius]

Then Russia must suffer.

[JayH]

Perhaps at last some dissenting views are creeping through?

Михаил Касьянов: прекратить агрессию!

Russia's former PM Kasyanov: "Crimea's not our territory"


Mikhail Kasyanov: stop the aggression!
 


Published on  Dec 2014
We talk about the ways of Russia's withdrawal from the crisis caused by the annexation of the Crimea and the war against Ukraine with Russian Prime Minister in 2000-2004, co-chairman of People's Freedom Party (Parnas) Mikhail Kasyanov. The program is hosted Mikhail Sokolov.

Trying to get yout link working--try this--

http://twitter.com/KARATAYZafer/status/551424622554808320

[lordtiberius]

Jay H, you are generally supportive of Mendy's views, is Crimea Ukrainian?  Will Russia return it in your lifetime?

[JayH]

I, for one, do not wish for Russia to be humiliated. That would be counterproductive. I know that my view is a minority here, but being in the minority is the least of my worries.

What I do wish for Russia:

- True democratic institutions such as the rule of law and an independent judiciary.

- A defeat of inbred corruption. Every nation has a measure of corruption, because we are humans, and thus is the human condition. However, Russia is a land of rule by competing princes, much like her beginning, only the title of prince has been replaced by Oligarch.

- Fair and free elections which the Russian people, without undue outside influence, chart their own future.

- Respect and goodwill toward her bordering neighbors.

- A growing and diverse economy, building a society not dependent just on oil.

- Respect for minorities within their midst.

- True federalization in which regions can exercise local autonomy as part of a larger federation. This means that the top-down mentality of Moscow calling all the shots across many time zones will have to be reformed. The practice of appointing governors, although it has been minimized as of late, must be totally eliminated if local citizens are to have true representation.

- Join the world community, and as a large country with vast potential, be considered a world leader. Such a position is earned however, something the current leadership has not learned.

Mende--to achieve any new civilised direction will take Russia being humiliated--simple fact is that only that will see enough people in Russia facing up to what the fool Putin and his Kremlin cronies have dragged Russia into--- a no win situation to oblivium!!
None if it was necessary--but truly stupid Russian egos decided to attempt to bully their way to the future instead of seeking to be part of the world--they have chosen to be a pariah--again.
Russian attitudes to Ukraine and Ukrainians is and has been disgusting--even the idiot fringe of Putin apologists on the forums continues to deny reality--show zero compassion for the plight of Ukrainians caught in the war in the east or those on the Crimea-- and zero respect for Ukrainians incredibly brave push for democracy and reform.
The comments in the thread above by those with compassion for Ukraine are closest to the mark-- Ukrainians are entitled to choose their own future and direction--regardless of any consideration of what Russia thinks it should be. LT's comments above are closest to how Ukrainians feel-- total hate and disgust towards Russia--anyone who spends time in Ukraine will hear it everyday and from virtually anyone you meet-- and Putin and Russia deserves every bit of contempt the world can muster towards Russia.
When the Russian people at large show that they want to be part of the world again--and behave that way--I would welcome that day--but--I do not think that will happen until a lot of suffering and humiliation has happened.

[JayH]

Jay H, you are generally supportive of Mendy's views, is Crimea Ukrainian?  Will Russia return it in your lifetime?

I totally reject the idea that Crimea will not be Ukrainian again. It is part of Ukraine and currently illegally occupied by Russia.
I am not generally supportive of Mendes views(on Ukraine)--but I am respectful!!  I understand his perspective  and compromised current situation-that would be a better way to put it.

Crimea will be Ukrainian again-- and soon.The humiliation of Russia is tied to this happening-- as is the collapse of the Russian economy-- and all is possible sooner rather than later.

Currently--Russia is busy replacing it's mercenaries with regular military in eastern Ukraine-- why?
My guess--- Russia needs to be able to control what is happening in the east. Why>?-- to use as a bargaining  chip to get sanctions eased/lifted.
From Ukrainian perspective-- I would NEVER agree to any agreement that leaves Ukrainian territory in Russian hands--not one centimetre  of it.
How do I see current state of play?
If Ukraine can hang on in a military sense in the east until mid year--then I think they can actually beat the Russians-time will then become an asset to Ukraine as the all round pressure builds on Russia.
Putin is desperate now-- and I worry that the US is also desperate to look like it has achieved something in Ukraine-- so I am hoping that Ukraine does not get forced into accepting what are basically unacceptable compromises.

[Gator]

Why would Ukraine want Crimea?  It will be an economic drain to Ukraine when its limited financial assets are better used elsewhere.     

For sure Ukraine should continue to protest and use Crimea as a bargaining chip, yet do not take it back.   Krim slowly will become another Turkish Cyprus and an economic drain on Russia.   

Create a stalemate in eastern Ukraine with the Russian-supported rebels having responsibility for administering and rebuilding what is essentially a bombed out Detroit.  This region will become another economic drain on Russia.   

Meanwhile Ukraine with EU's help can rebuild the economy in the remainder of Ukraine.  In 10-15 years a strong Ukraine will be able to take over eastern Ukraine.   

Because the overall issue will remain unsettled, the EU and the US will continue its sanctions.  This too will be another hardship for Russia.

[lordtiberius]

No, Gator, I agree with Jay H on Crimea.  Ukraine has not used all its weapons on Crimea to bend her to its will.  Cut the electricity and the water, commit the Tatars to a terror and insurgo campaign.  The West should not accept a Russian Crimea nor should it accept a Russia with Putin as President.

[JayH]

Why would Ukraine want Crimea?  It will be an economic drain to Ukraine when its limited financial assets are better used elsewhere.     

For sure Ukraine should continue to protest and use Crimea as a bargaining chip, yet do not take it back.   Krim slowly will become another Turkish Cyprus and an economic drain on Russia.   

Create a stalemate in eastern Ukraine with the Russian-supported rebels having responsibility for administering and rebuilding what is essentially a bombed out Detroit.  This region will become another economic drain on Russia.   

Meanwhile Ukraine with EU's help can rebuild the economy in the remainder of Ukraine.  In 10-15 years a strong Ukraine will be able to take over eastern Ukraine.   

Because the overall issue will remain unsettled, the EU and the US will continue its sanctions.  This too will be another hardship for Russia.

Gator-- i see reestablishing the borders as in integral part of a "new" Ukraine. Doing this while Russia is on the run now will be important to ridding Ukraine of attempted Russian domination and control  for the foreseeable future.
As long as Russia thinks they can control events in Ukraine--they will keep trying.
The rebuilding of the economy in Ukraine will be no easy task and lot's of hardship for Ukrainians is in store-- so a sense of unity will be important.
As for Crimea being a drain -- I do not see it like that. It is important beyond the economic(or military) concerns. Let's face it--pushing the Russians out will be humiliating to Russia and Russians!!
Right now-- it is no time to accept compromises that will prove unacceptable in the future.

[lordtiberius]

I see the Kuban province as Ukrainian.

[AC]

Why would Ukraine want Crimea?  It will be an economic drain to Ukraine when its limited financial assets are better used elsewhere.     

For sure Ukraine should continue to protest and use Crimea as a bargaining chip, yet do not take it back.   Krim slowly will become another Turkish Cyprus and an economic drain on Russia.   

Create a stalemate in eastern Ukraine with the Russian-supported rebels having responsibility for administering and rebuilding what is essentially a bombed out Detroit.  This region will become another economic drain on Russia.   

Meanwhile Ukraine with EU's help can rebuild the economy in the remainder of Ukraine.  In 10-15 years a strong Ukraine will be able to take over eastern Ukraine.   

Because the overall issue will remain unsettled, the EU and the US will continue its sanctions.  This too will be another hardship for Russia.

  

I like this plan.  I would just add giving Ukraine enough weapons to keep the Russians where they are.  Never let Putler get his land bridge.

[lordtiberius]

Seriously?  Sounds like defeatism to me.

[AC]

Seriously?  Sounds like defeatism to me.

Not at all.  Ukraine is barely surviving in an economic sense, and you think they should launch a bloody and unwinnable war to take back Crimea?  Now that would be defeatism for sure.

Pragmatic and wise people choose their battles carefully.  The first battle for Ukraine right now is to survive economically, the second (or of equal importance) is to keep the Russians where they are and to continue to starve them economically.

[mendeleyev]

Believe me, there is not a single soul in the Kremlin who views me as a "Russian patriot."

LT, do not put words in my mouth. I have never thought of Crimea as a legitimate part of Russia. However, I do not see that being reversed in my lifetime. You are intelligent enough to understand the difference--so act and speak accordingly. Were I some all-powerful god, I'd give it back to the Tatars and let them decided whom to keep, and let the rest swim back to wherever home is.

Nor am I compromised. Pressured a lot, as are other Western journalists--that goes with the territory.

[lordtiberius]

You have a profound love for a Russia, its history, its people, its language and its destiny.  To me, they are the mob that wants to hurt my family.  There will be a diversity of opinion.  I am sympathetic to you and your view.  We just have different interests.  We both would like to see a free, democratic Russia. We want a Russia without Putin.  I support Navalny.
 
 I don't know how a democratic Russia is possible.  Russia is in a lot of ways ungovernable.  Recent history, Yeltsin, to Kruschev, to the assassination of Tsar Alexander to the failure of the Decembrists, Russia has no tradition of democratic principles.

In my opinion, Russians enjoy more freedom under non-Kremlin rule.  From Latvia to Kazakhstan, Russians under foreign rule enjoy more rights and prosperity than under their kinsmen in Muscovy.

The world is not safe as long as the Kremlin controls the second largest nuclear arsenal.

If these NATO incursions have taught the West anything, it is that we must impose a seige against Russia until they appoint representatives who are sincere about joining the family of nations.

Russia cannot hold Crimea.  Ukraine will seize Crimea by force or by concession within five years or sooner.  Military strength is illusory that is why one must be wise in its application.  Russia has not been wise.