Reflecting on our K-1 period

[Son of Clyde]

Rah Rah guys, very funny.

You come here feeling sorry for what happened and in your post you have this "but I told you so" attitude.

Yes, I gave PG support but as a grown man he had to make his own choices.

I think PG knew from the onset that there could be problems. He made his own choice good or bad.

Do you really think any guy will listen to 100% of the advice he receives here? He makes his own choices.

I seem to remember several remarks about larisa's looks but I don't remember who made them. Whoever made the remarks was wrong.

[Bruce]

Photo - I echo the excellent analysis provided above and again commend you on your truthfulness. 

My first question to you is exactly what do you think you should do differently to contact, meet abroad, bring to the USA and potentially marry the next time you go about this? 

I read your posts and read where you felt you could have improved upon things etc.  Everybody is a Monday morning quarterback and there are always would have, should have dones etc. 

What advice would you give to a guy interested in potentially going to the FSU with the thought in the back of his mind that he may meet his other half?

[KenC]

Rah Rah guys, very funny.

You come here feeling sorry for what happened and in your post you have this "but I told you so" attitude.

Yes, I gave PG support but as a grown man he had to make his own choices.

I think PG knew from the onset that there could be problems. He made his own choice good or bad.

Do you really think any guy will listen to 100% of the advice he receives here? He makes his own choices.

I seem to remember several remarks about larisa's looks but I don't remember who made them. Whoever made the remarks was wrong.

Clyde,
You're one of the worst offenders here with your "this is a support group" mentality. Do you think it is responsible for you to cheer a guy on even though you see the errors in his decisions? We should support poor decisions because the man has the right to make them? That is total nonsense. You and your like only fed poor Doug's fantasies. You did more harm than good.
KenC

[PeeWee]

Clyde,
You're one of the worst offenders here with your "this is a support group" mentality. Do you think it is responsible for you to cheer a guy on even though you see the errors in his decisions? We should support poor decisions because the man has the right to make them? That is total nonsense. You and your like only fed poor Doug's fantasies. You did more harm than good.
KenC

That is easy to say in hindsight, Ken. What is a "support group"? What are a man's rights to make a free choice and then live with that choice, be it a right choice or be it a wrong one? What is offensive is for someone to offer an opinion and then when that opinion is proved right, be the outcome good or bad, for them to sit back and say, "Well...I told you so." I now see those people coming forth.  Thus proving to themselves that they are indeed the prophet they thought they were.

There is absolutely now way, with any degree of certainty, that anyone will know the outcome of any event. We might be able to surmise what might happen but then what would be the appeal of any sporting event be? The Seahawks lost in last year's Superbowl to the Steelers. The Seahawks were underdogs going into the contest and most thought they might lose the match. Did these opinions stop the Seahawks from playing the game and almost winning it? No. Where the "rah rah boys" still there urging their team on? Yes they were. After the game had ended did those who had predicted a Steeler win crop up and claim, "I told you so. I'm so smart.: Yes again.

My six years in the service of my country taught me many things. One was to, "Proceed with caution." In otherwords, you are going to go ahead and do it and your chances of success are unknown so just think about what it is you are doing at all times and you might just come out of it ok. In Doug's case he did not lose his life of his disappointing experience. He might have lost a little face but in wisdom gained from the school of hard knocks he had come out a winner.  Rah Rah...go Dougie.

Peewee

[andrewfi]

PeeWee ~ you might have learned a phrase or two when you were in some kind of uniform, but that is no help to you here. Others reading these threads might learn something, Doug might learn something, but it is waaay to early to suggest that Doug has picked up any wisdom from his time pissing on the 'lectric fence, however, the early evidence might suggest the contrary position.

What has happened is that almost all the points, upon which those concerned about what we saw unfolding in front of us, came to pass. The only good thing was that, it seems, Larisa chose to return home. It may even be that Doug has a second chance, but if you were a betting man, what odds would you give on a middle aged man gaining the acceptance of a father of a woman, where that woman is the same generation as Doug, given what has already happened. It seems that as Leslie's wife pointed out some time ago, a sensible parent is unlikely to be in favour of his daughter going off with an old man that he has not even met yet.

I wish Doug good fortune, or as one who does not believe, overmuch in luck, the smarts to accept who he is, where he is and what he is and deal with those givens in a mature fashion. IE, Doug, go out, and find an age appropriate relationship with a person with whom you share social and cultural backgrounds. Deal with the realities, not the fantasies. But all the time remember that if you find a good woman who matches your needs, and you hers,then you wil have acheived the fantasy of many, many men and women.

[BC]

PeeWee,

To be quite fair, little if nothing Ken has said in this thread was hindsight. Many posts along the lines of his post here were discussed long ago.

You are correct in that no absolute outcome can be predicted, I'm sure Ken will agree with you on this point.  Professional sport teams have highly paid professionals to train their teams and plan their games, I'm sure they often review replays of game of other teams play to try and pick the winning strategy. They do everything possible and still there is the factor of luck (or misluck depending on POV) that can ultimately decide the winner.

I also served the military in a very dangerous job even in peacetime.  Yes, we proceeded with caution but never, never, threw caution to the wind even for our haz duty pay and quick promotions. Yes, we're not talking life or limb here but the same principle applies.

As far as hindsight goes, I hope PG can begin to objectively look in his rearview mirror and heed the 'objects seem closer than they actually are' warnings.

[jb]

PeeWee,

Last I looked, this is not a "support group".  Just a motley collection of totally anonymous screen names, all looking towards a common objective.  As such, we are completely free to express opinions, solve all the world's problems, or even berate the occasional idjit who comes down the path.

If you are looking for a support group to lend affirmation to a religion of funny ideas, perhaps you might join AA, MADD, GreenPeace, or some other "Save The Whales" organization, 'cause this ain't it.

Next~!

[Muj]

Doug,

Reading the posts here and some at "Photo Guy's assortment of knowledge ..and random thoughts" I'll add my two bits.  You're 52, in a big hurry, and like to do things your own way.  Ok, not abnormal, and not too bad, as long as you accept any consequences.  Which you do.  If you're still interested in Larisa, visit her and her parents this summer.
I agree with meeting the parents, visiting in her home city, and spending as much time together in multiple visits. 
Did something happen or not happpen at the beginning of her arrival?

[David1963]

This is one of the few stories that I have been following on here and wanted to say what a relief it was for them not to get married.  I think it would have been the wrong decision.

I'm sure Larrisa will get on with her life and it was been a learning experience for her and she will make better choices in the future from it.

It was shocked that this is the first time a 52yo has ever lived with a person before.  I think this is the main issue.

How has someone lived to 52 and not lived with another woman?
Why is a 52yo who has not lived with another woman looking abroad for a wife?
Why will a 52yo still look abroad for a wife and not try to find someone locally?

I know most of these answers and so does everyone else who can be honest about it.

My advice would be to not run around the world looking for someone to marry, try looking locally.  Once you are successful there and have some experience with women then you can look abroad. 

Sorry to be so hard on you but I am always amazed by some people.

One thing though, I do admire you for having the curage to post your experience here, that is more than some will do.

[PeeWee]

PeeWee ~ you might have learned a phrase or two when you were in some kind of uniform, but that is no help to you here. Others reading these threads might learn something, Doug might learn something, but it is waaay to early to suggest that Doug has picked up any wisdom from his time pissing on the 'lectric fence, however, the early evidence might suggest the contrary position.

What has happened is that almost all the points, upon which those concerned about what we saw unfolding in front of us, came to pass. The only good thing was that, it seems, Larisa chose to return home. It may even be that Doug has a second chance, but if you were a betting man, what odds would you give on a middle aged man gaining the acceptance of a father of a woman, where that woman is the same generation as Doug, given what has already happened. It seems that as Leslie's wife pointed out some time ago, a sensible parent is unlikely to be in favour of his daughter going off with an old man that he has not even met yet.

I wish Doug good fortune, or as one who does not believe, overmuch in luck, the smarts to accept who he is, where he is and what he is and deal with those givens in a mature fashion. IE, Doug, go out, and find an age appropriate relationship with a person with whom you share social and cultural backgrounds. Deal with the realities, not the fantasies. But all the time remember that if you find a good woman who matches your needs, and you hers,then you wil have acheived the fantasy of many, many men and women.

Andrew, how can  you pass of a thought or a precept with a statement such as, "...some kind of uniform."  That uniform, my friend, be it a police, fire, or military is what has kept you and still keeps you both free  and safe. I have no idea  how you can disregard the symbolism of  that uniform, no matter what it represents. Did you manage to walk on an American flag today, too?

Peewee

[KenC]

Peewee,
If anyone's hindsight is out of focus it is the sunshine boys that suddenly have come up mute. All the dolts that encouraged Doug that he was doing the right things share in the outcome of his errors. If they truly wanted to help Doug they would not have encouraged him to continue in his obviously mislaid plan. Be encouraging, OK, but encourage people to do the right things. Don't stand there applauding a guy's bravery as he jumps off a cliff!
KenC

[Photo Guy]

'Engaged' summarizes it well.

Here's an even simpler summary:
I DATED A WOMAN AND THE POSSIBLE END RESULT IS THAT WE WILL
GO OUR SEPARATE WAYS.

Ever hear of such a wild scenario? <sarcasm> Should I advise guys about how to avoid
such a horrible sequence of events? I can't, because the nature of 'dating'
is that you spend time discovering what you are like as a couple and then
after a certain amount of time, you commit to each other or you separate.
That's how it goes. Rather than suggesting a specific rigid game plan, I'd
advise guys to be flexible, empathetic, strong, considerate, and perceptive.

In groov's recent TR, there was a new prominent element of flexibility
or graciousness that I think really worked for him. That's what worked.
It did not have much to do with his pre-planned procedures or strategies.

This board is interesting and entertaining. I advise newbies to weigh all of the advice, but
make your own independent decisions.

Recently BC accused me of holding back details, personal information about
my relationship with Larisa. Well hell, I have lots of personal details I will not
share here, for obvious reasons. Get a clue about that. In the last year I've seen
authoritarian types jump to conclusions about all sorts of things, going way beyond
the info presented, and often assuming the worst possible scenario.

I advise newbies to share very little of their experience here, for that very reason. -doug[/size]

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

Last I looked, this is not a "support group".  Just a motley collection of totally anonymous screen names, all looking towards a common objective.  As such, we are completely free to express opinions, solve all the world's problems, or even berate the occasional idjit who comes down the path.

If you are looking for a support group to lend affirmation to a religion of funny ideas, perhaps you might join AA, MADD, GreenPeace, or some other "Save The Whales" organization, 'cause this ain't it.

Next~!

Support comes in may forms, Jb. If that support comes in the form of an "atta boy" or a "give it a try and see what happens" then that is what I would call support. This is a group and atleast someone has offered to Doug an "atta boy". This then, by the way I define it, qualifies us as a "support group." Why wouldn't we be proud of that? if you have ever said to anyone in one of your posts, "i agree." Then, my friend, you have offered to a brother your support.

peewee

[jb]

Peewee,

That's right, attack the messenger, never the message.

[jb]

Doug,

For the umpteenth time, a K-1 is not a "Dating" situation.  You still haven't got it, have you?

[PeeWee]

Peewee,
If anyone's hindsight is out of focus it is the sunshine boys that suddenly have come up mute. All the dolts that encouraged Doug that he was doing the right things share in the outcome of his errors. If they truly wanted to help Doug they would not have encouraged him to continue in his obviously mislaid plan. Be encouraging, OK, but encourage people to do the right things. Don't stand there applauding a guy's bravery as he jumps off a cliff!
KenC

I agree with it, Ken. I'm thinking like I would if my son came to me and told me that he planned to do this, this, and that. My life's experiences would suggest to him that, this, this, and that many not work but rather than flat tell him no I let him try. If he succeeds then I was wrong. If he fails then I was right. But that is where it ends. Try the samething again but try it using what you have learned from the first failure.

One time little peewee had a bird. The bird escaped from the home and flew into the woods. In his child wisdom he told me the bird would return. I told him that the bird was not like a dog. He would not return. It was getting dark. Little peewee politly listend to me and then put on his coat and went outside and into the woods. About an hour later he returned with the bird sitting on his shoulder.

I learned a lesson from him. Not to tell someone what they cannot do but rather let them discover it on their own. Had he listened to me he would not have found his bird. Now fast forward to 10 years later. I am visiting the home of a woman who has a parrot. The parrot escapes and flys away. I ask the woman if she is going to go look for the parrot. She had planned it but wanted to talk to me first. She would go look later. I figured she would find the bird but I offered to help her look. 30 minutes later we found the parrot sitting on a neighbor's roof about 2 blocks from her home.

Never say never and always be open to the cup being half full, as opposed to being half empty. Give it a try and if you fail, inspite of what others have offered in the way of advice and opions, then try try again. But don't be so stupid as to repeat your same mistakes in doing so.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

Peewee,

That's right, attack the messenger, never the message.

I can tell by your one liner that  you know that I am right. I can accept that.

Thanks, lad.

peewee

[RacerX]

KenC ~ “sunshine boy,” - I think I like the moniker, thanks.

When I first joined RWD I noticed there was already in place a bunch of guys who had  ‘been there, done that’ and certainly weren't shy about telling a newbie how wrong he was if he hadn’t followed down the same, well-rutted path they had taken.

I termed these guys the “pickle-barrel boys.”  You know, those older veterans who sit around the general store watchin’ life come and go.  When a new guy comes in all steamed up about a budding. but yet unconventional relationship, they roll their eyes;  give other that knowing look and then precede, one-by-one begin to pick apart his every move.  Now, if presented with a Mr. Clean who meets their stereotypical view of relationships, well that’s just dandy, and they get to pat him on the back and welcome him into the brotherhood.

Yeah, I’ve thought about joining the pickle barrel boys because I find I have a lot in common with them, but yet I’ve resisted for one primary reason: from their writings (postings) is easy to detect they are in relationships where the power is fundamentally tipped towards them.  Simply put: they are the boss, the one who makes all the important decisions, and while they might let it seem from time-to-time that  wifey is head-strong and frequently tells them off, the reality is they are in a marriage of unequals.

So, what has all of this to do with Doug? - “Mr Unconventional”

Only that there might just possibly be a multitude of approaches that can yield the desired result, which is obviously to find that unique RW for which they can share a lifetime of experiences.  Would I do it Doug’s way?  No, but I can’t say his way would have been any more or less successful since we are all guys who are not in the slightest bit reflective of the mainstream trying to establish relationships with women who  quite distinctly differ from their FSU sisters.

We are all “the blind leading the blind,” only some of us think we see better than the others.

[KenC]

Peewee & RacerX,
No one can ever predict how any relationship will turn out, especially one between an AM and a RW. All one can do is take the best course of action for the desired results. No one is kidding anyone here that Doug only wanted an extended 90 day date. I sure ain't buying that and I hope your not. So we can conclude that the "desired results" didn't happen with the methods employed by Doug. As I said previously, he couldn't have done any worse if he had considered the other suggestions. Maybe much better. The suggestions surly addressed some of the issues that Doug himself said had sunk his ship with Larisa (ie. parental approval, lack of English skills, depression etc)

Yes, I agree that sometimes the unconventional approaches have some success. But there is a reason they are "unconventional." It's because they usually don't work.

You both make it sound like there was a total attack on Doug for subtle differences in approach. That simply is not true. We aren't speaking of small insignificant details here. It was the simplest basic common sense logic that was ignored. Like meet the parents, see where she lives, have the ability to communicate, and know the woman you are getting engaged to. Kind of big stuff in my mind.

In closing, anyone who thinks that my wife Lena is dominated by me or is in a marriage of "unequals" surly has never met her. If you told her that to her face, she would rip you a new one!
KenC

[jb]

No one who has ever met Etna, face-to-face, would ever say she was dominated by little old me.  That is simply not possible.  Our's is a partnership, never one-sided, unless it's in the gift giving department where I'm always the winner.  RacerX, you know not of which you speak.

[Photo Guy]

jb wrote:
\Doug,

For the umpteenth time, a K-1 is not a "Dating" situation.  You still haven't got it, have you?


What you are saying, is impractical. We would have preferred a tourist or work visa.
It's all about love and romance and getting to know each other. Don't pretend it is not.
I am not here to satisfy the government. I am here to pursue happiness without
stepping on anyone else's toes. I used the k-1 period, as a time for getting to know her.
It worked well. In fact, I'd venture to guess that I got to know her better than guys
who make multiple trips over to the FSU, for the purpose of getting to know a particular woman.
You have to realize the US government wants its citizens to be happy. What they do not
want is GCG's or terrorists finding their way in here. I'm just a guy looking for true romance.
The government is fine with that.

jb, I want you to get this part: Making mulitple trips over there and deciding in just a few weeks that
you have definitely found your wife, is an absurd scenario. So, yes, it can be totally
'correct' to file a K1 after knwoing her in the FSU for a few weeks, and promising the world
that she is the woman of your dreams and saying that you will definitely marry her, during the
90 days after just those few weeks together. If you do not see the absurdity in that, you
are clueless about the reality of getting to know someone.

On the other hand, I believe a guy can determine in a short amount of time if the woman
is 'marriage material' based on his own individual criteria, and after a short amount of
time together in the FSU. However, everyone knows that the 90 day period is often an
eye-opener and a continuation of the 'getting to know you' process. She may be the perfect
woman for you, but if she does not adjust well to her new home, it ain't gonna work.
All kinds of factors come into play.
So yes, the K1 period is still a continuation of the discovery process, that I'll label 'dating'.
That's the reality. The only way this would not be true, is if the couple had spent MANY
months together in the FSU. That happens for a very small percentage of couples.

[BC]

PeeWee,

I kinda liked your stories about the birds.. the moral I see is that effort can be worth it.  No one told PG not to go see this woman, but I think even you will admit that finding a suitable RW is a bit different than looking for a lost bird. The true effort expended by PG was indeed very minimal and for the most part burocratic in nature.

Racer,

Re my wife: your aim is so far off that the chances of you getting hit by a ricochet are much greater.  Even considering our differences we are more equal in our relationship than any other I was a part of.

The 'pickle barrel boys' idea of yours is an illusion. The good handfull of married folks you mention each found their wives in different and unique ways.. but mostly share their common experiences and thoughts here.

Isn't it funny that you keep hearing the same ol' bull sh!t over and over from a bunch of old geezers strewn round the globe?

I think those sharing your views really need to take a step or two back and realize who has the least to loose and who has the most to gain from the mass of virtual ink produced here. Think it's really any skin off my back if some poor soul on another continent can't get his stuff together?  Hell I don't even personally know any of the other members of the 'peck of pickled peckers' you describe but what I do know is that the last thing in the world they rejoyce about is seeing someone fail.. The evidence of this is the huge amount of effort they put forth in trying to show what has worked for them in the past. 

OTOH I do see too often what does not work.

[Admin]

I have unlocked the topic - BUT - this is only for 24 hours, and I expect no unnecessary bashing of ANYONE. I really do think this topic has run its course - and all that needs to be said (written), has been. Nonetheless, some were surprised that I had set board permissions to allow a Topic Starter to lock their own topic -and I had done so without warning to the rest of the board. For that reason alone, I am opening this topic back up for 24 hours. I will not hesitate to lock the topic if I see any unnecessary bashing.

For the future, you should expect a policy to be forthcoming on if/when a member may lock their own topics.

- Dan

[andrewfi]

Doug ~
I want to be 25 again. I want to have a full head of hair. I want a house with a swimming pool. I want many things.

Of those, two are impossible and the third impractical at the moment. Knowing these things I make the most of what I have and work to make practical the impractical (or accept that I might have to settle for a Jacuzzi!) Your situation is similar. You have limitations upon you as a person and upon your capabilities/resources. It is no good to say that you cut a corner because it did not suit you, or was beyond your means. You chose not to make extra visits because you could not afford to, or because your employers would not give you the time, or both. That you could not make necessary trips does not mean that they were not necessary. No matter how much I want a swimming pool in my home, the practical issues of size and weight in an apartment come into play - I know it, so I don't build the pool.

The K-1 visa exists, you can not unwish it. I don't know for sure, but if a second one for Larisa were to come up, the interviewer might well ask why it wsa that she did not marry you on the first and judge, correctly that the privilage had been abused first time around and deny the application for that reason. You and others may object, but them's the rules.

Of course, some people meet a person and 'know' that the person is the 'one'. But you have spent 52 years of your life NOT doing that. I kinda guess that one such as you is not the one to bet on for having above average insights in interpersonal relationships. Perhaps that is why you did not realsise that 'jetlag' does not last weeks. Hardly a sign of knowing someone well, or of perception, or unspoken communication, eh?

As we have learned over the weeks and months and highlighted more recently in your posts that the reasons why you cut corners was due to lack of resources. I think, if you were entirely honest with us and yourself that if you had a little money and a job that had decent holidays that you might have done differently. You did not have the choice but you were fixed upon a goal - a one shot deal. Well, you had the shot. It did not work out. Lesson learned (maybe) that an international marriage is not available to everyone.

One shot deals are usually conceived out of desperation. Projects born of desperation rarely succeed, no matter how heroic the attempt.

Have a think about why you fixated upon marrying a woman to whom you could not talk. Why a woman not from your social and cultural background. Question your motivations and make plans not born of desperation and with a recognition of your limitations - not much money, not much vacation time, late middle age, little language skill, lack of relationship experience and of your good points - persistence, decent personality, cheap bus travel and work with what you have.

[Bruno]

Of course, some people meet a person and 'know' that the person is the 'one'. But you have spent 52 years of your life NOT doing that. I kinda guess that one such as you is not the one to bet on for having above average insights in interpersonal relationships.

Andrew, can you explain the logic of your argument !

Yes, Doug have never married but it don't mean that he have live like a monk during 52 years... I am sure that like all young men, he have date, know interpersonal relationship when he was in college...

By example, myself, i have married the first time when i was 30 year old... but it don't mean that i was a virgin before these time... i have know my share of relationship... some very short and 3 who have last very long before my first marriage... in the case of foreign relationship, marriage is almost a obligation ( not in holland ), but with local relationship, you are alowed to live together without be married...

EDIT : "I want to have a full head of hair" is something possible if you have the needed money... now, it is possible to implant new hair on a bowling ball ( human head without hair )