Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?

[fathertime]

Fathertime: Your theory perhaps fails to fully recognise Russian strategy, which historically, in general terms, has often been very good (terrible executioners but great strategists). Crimea excepted, a simple military walk-in-takeover, which as you say, militarily, was relatively simple, would not be as saleable to the nationalistic audience.
 
The current quagmire of Eastern UA is working very well for RU strategists (again, great strategists, terrible executioners) because it is allowing, perhaps even fuelling, the demonization, of "these crazy UA people" in RU circles and convincing the same that USA is far more involved than it probably is - perhaps even allowing time for the latter to become more so.
 
On the nationalistic bent, it is interesting to observe even my wife and some of her friends, who are all quite well educated, most having lived and worked abroad for many years (quite similar to some we've seen here), clam up and admit that the only real feeling in the sickness of their stomach is that America is somehow at the bottom of this and then in the same breath admit that the fact they feel this way points to them not having matured much beyond soviet thinking even yet....   
 
I contend the current "strategy" is near perfect - the execution is extremely expensive in human capital but I don't think that was ever a consideration, nor has it ever been in Russian military history.

Hey I/O,  You bring up some great points, and may be right.  Clearly history has shown that Russia is willing to lose men in battle if that is what they need to do get what they want...whereas here in the states we start losing support pretty quick when our soldiers start dying.  So based on how I've read your post,  this time that is elapsing is a necessary part of Russia's strategy as it allows the populace to ferment so to speak, and then at some point will be or support the 'catalyst' when they go in 4-square with the populace fully behind the move.  Interesting.


Fathertime!   

[I/O]

when they go in 4-square

That may or may not happen.

[sleepycat]

If it was not Crimea, it would be anything else.

Classic example of victim Russian mentality.

The goal is to defeat Russia which won't happen.

Never underestimate the power of global capitalism.

[JayH]

You are completely deluded.  When Ukraine began to win against the separatists in E. Ukraine Russia sent in their regular Army guys and there was a massacre of Ukrainian soldiers.  Poroshenko immediately pressed for a cease-fire and that brings us to where we are today. 

Yet you persist in thinking that Ukraine could dislodge the Russian regular Army and special forces which are stationed all over Crimea.  Completely delusional thinking.

I am deluded--I dont think so--given I never said what you alledge--read what I said-- "escalated" --meaning in the context of YOUR WW3 comment-- escalated = meaning more than Ukraine involved--really-- you said it--I commented in that context.Nowhere did I say"Ukraine could dislodge the Russian regular Army and special forces which are stationed all over Crimea."  I expressed no view on that issue.Read the sequence of posts.
Really AC-- you have looked at a post and added 2 + 2 to = 33 about 1/2 a dozen times now--is it necessary to spell every comment out to you? I don't think it is-- but please read the words in context.

Your comments on actions are not accurate either-fact is the Russians have got the coffin home in far greater numbers-fact not fiction.The action you refer to was where Ukrainian troops that were encircled and were slaughtered when they thought they had a truce.

As far as Crimea situation-- currently the Russians are busy making Sevastopol    a closed city within the Crimea-with it's own borders. Many potential explanations-- perhaps they are thinking they will lose Crimea and be able to keep Sevastopol?
 If this thinking is on the Russian agenda--it is interesting in itself-they are smelling defeat and still think they can negotiate to their advantage.

As for comments her about ending the war--it would end the second Russia removes its troops from Ukrainian territory and respected the borders that it agreed to protect for Ukraine.

Jay I think you are hyperventilating again.  If Russia is up to something in Sevastopol it could be Nuclear.  The chance of Ukraine getting Crimea back within 5 years is extremely slim.  If I were a betting man I would certainly bet against that.

Soviet Russia beat the Nazi's there and prior to that they beat the combined efforts of Britain, France and Turkey and yet you really think that Ukraine by herself is going to get the barnacles out of there?  Or do you want to start WWIII like lordtiberius does?

Not close to what I was saying here.
My point here was that  Russia could be preparing alternatives for itself-- to get what is most important to it at the negotiating table.
There have been discussions going on for some time between US and Russia over Ukraine(months not days)--  as you may guess I am underwhelmed at the idea of conceding anything to Russia--but realities say that anything that stops the loss of Ukrainian lives needs consideration.

To answer the question you allude to-- the Russians can and would be defeated in an escalated war-- including removing them from Sevastopol and the Crimea.That answer applies to a nuclear war or a more localised restricted war.  Putin is bluffing-- and I would call his bluff--at any level. The only thing that a bully will respond to is self preservation-- and that is the issue that needs driving into Russian heads is that they are are going to lose here--one way or another.

You are completely deluded.  When Ukraine began to win against the separatists in E. Ukraine Russia sent in their regular Army guys and there was a massacre of Ukrainian soldiers.  Poroshenko immediately pressed for a cease-fire and that brings us to where we are today. 

Yet you persist in thinking that Ukraine could dislodge the Russian regular Army and special forces which are stationed all over Crimea.  Completely delusional thinking.

In case you are not following--Related New Topic--

Birukov: «Cyborgs» destroyed Russian Special Forces group, militants and wounded two warlords
«Cyborgs» destroyed more than 50 militants who stormed the Donetsk airport. An advisor to the Minister of Defence Yutiy Birukov wrote about it on his Facebook page.

«Information from the Donetsk airport, 20:56 Monday (Kyiv time — ed.): all in all the rumours about a Russian Special Forces group are not rumours. Few dozens of «astronauts» had arrived and led organisms into an attack.

Now, if Russians will speak of us as of an inhospitable nations, don’t be surprised. According to an intercepted separatists’ radio conversation, 27 soldiers of the Russian Special Forces will go home this morning, in cosy body bags. About 25-30 of the locals organisms have also ended their life journey. Two warlords (that’s if one can call such scam a warlord) are wounded,» — wrote Birukov.

http://en.inforesist.org/birukov-cyborgs-destroyed-russian-special-forces-group-militants-and-wounded-two-warlords/

[AkMike]

Five more loads of humiliated Russian tourists leave Ukraine! 

http://en.inforesist.org/5-vehicles-with-the-cargo-200-went-to-russia-from-the-luhansk-region/

[AC]

I am deluded--I dont think so--given I never said what you alledge--read what I said-- "escalated" --meaning in the context of YOUR WW3 comment-- escalated = meaning more than Ukraine involved--really-- you said it--I commented in that context.Nowhere did I say"Ukraine could dislodge the Russian regular Army and special forces which are stationed all over Crimea."  I expressed no view on that issue.Read the sequence of posts.
Really AC-- you have looked at a post and added 2 + 2 to = 33 about 1/2 a dozen times now--is it necessary to spell every comment out to you? I don't think it is-- but please read the words in context.

Your comments on actions are not accurate either-fact is the Russians have got the coffin home in far greater numbers-fact not fiction.The action you refer to was where Ukrainian troops that were encircled and were slaughtered when they thought they had a truce.

Jay I think I will let Robocop deal with you from now on.  You really are deluded because you want to escalate this war and bring NATO into it and have them invade Crimea?  Is that what you really want?  That would indeed be the start of WWIII.  Cuckoo!!   

[JayH]

Jay I think I will let Robocop deal with you from now on.  You really are deluded because you want to escalate this war and bring NATO into it and have them invade Crimea?  Is that what you really want?  That would indeed be the start of WWIII.  Cuckoo!!   

Like I said-- your comprehension skills are only marginally better that some or the truly deluded here.
If you are incapable of asking a question that does not attempt to attribute views not being expressed -- and when answered in the hypothetical you extend from there--in this case --the major point you miss is that in fact--I was advocating a way to avoid WW3.
To point out the even more obvious-- where did I say anything about Nato invading the Crimea? the answer--I did not.
If you choose to insist on believing lies--more fool you-- stick to the stupid yes  it is/no it isnt type crap of the forum fools.

[AC]

Like I said-- your comprehension skills are only marginally better that some or the truly deluded here.
If you are incapable of asking a question that does not attempt to attribute views not being expressed -- and when answered in the hypothetical you extend from there--in this case --the major point you miss is that in fact--I was advocating a way to avoid WW3.
To point out the even more obvious-- where did I say anything about Nato invading the Crimea? the answer--I did not.
If you choose to insist on believing lies--more fool you-- stick to the stupid yes  it is/no it isnt type crap of the forum fools.

                                                                                                  


Blah blah blah blah.  Yet here is the quote of General Jay, who claims he would call Putin's bluff.

To answer the question you allude to-- the Russians can and would be defeated in an escalated war-- including removing them from Sevastopol and the Crimea.That answer applies to a nuclear war or a more localised restricted war.  Putin is bluffing-- and I would call his bluff--at any level.

[Shadow]

Five more loads of humiliated Russian tourists leave Ukraine! 

http://en.inforesist.org/5-vehicles-with-the-cargo-200-went-to-russia-from-the-luhansk-region/

Let us all cheer for people dying, hurrah hurrah.

[AkMike]

But only for the invaders! 

[cc3]

The illicit invaders have earned their fate.

[Shadow]

But only for the invaders! 

The illicit invaders have earned their fate.

May  both of you share their fate.

[AkMike]

Sooner or later we all will. No big deal.

 They earned their fate by their actions.

BUT ours will be marked graves unlike theirs.

[Shadow]

Sooner or later we all will. No big deal.

 They earned their fate by their actions.

BUT ours will be marked graves unlike theirs.

Sure no big deal at all. I do hope everyone around you will be truly happy you died and not bother to mark your grave. After all that is what you wish for.

[AkMike]

ROTFLMFAO!

 You sure love to twist things around.

 I've earned a marked grave and folks will mourn my passing.

Quite unlike the ones stacked like firewood in the trailers marked Cargo 200! They have died for a fictional reality that Putin alone sees.

[Shadow]

ROTFLMFAO!

 You sure love to twist things around.

 I've earned a marked grave and folks will mourn my passing.

Quite unlike the ones stacked like firewood in the trailers marked Cargo 200! They have died for a fictional reality that Putin alone sees.

You have earned nothing at all. In fact you are clearly the lowest form of life around here.
I guess that due to the all and mighty Hollywood doctrine in which you so firmly believe any enemy death is to be cheered.
Only brainless Americans can truly believe such a thing.
You will never see me cheer for any loss of life in a war zone, regardless of which side they are on.
But I do cheer for people like you dying, as they deserve to become extinct like the barbaric dinosaurs they are.

[AkMike]

You truly don't have a clue about much at all. 

[Shadow]

You truly don't have a clue about much at all. 

The one who is clueless are you. If you can cheer about people dying, there is no hope for you.

[JayH]

You have earned nothing at all. In fact you are clearly the lowest form of life around here.
I guess that due to the all and mighty Hollywood doctrine in which you so firmly believe any enemy death is to be cheered.
Only brainless Americans can truly believe such a thing.
You will never see me cheer for any loss of life in a war zone, regardless of which side they are on.
But I do cheer for people like you dying, as they deserve to become extinct like the barbaric dinosaurs they are.

Hypocrite-- you have shown zero compassion or empathy for Russian scum killing good Ukrainians and now you have the temerity to lecture others on morality?

When you start respecting others--you may get some from others-- and you talk of the brainless!!  You have wasted countless forum space in denying the bleeding blind obvious.

[Shadow]

Hypocrite-- you have shown zero compassion or empathy for Russian scum killing good Ukrainians and now you have the temerity to lecture others on morality?

When you start respecting others--you may get some from others-- and you talk of the brainless!!  You have wasted countless forum space in denying the bleeding blind obvious.

Tell where I have cheered about Ukrainians dying?
As for wasting forum space... how many posts did you make?

[sleepycat]

When the time comes that midget mongoloid prez better hope he gets buried in an unknown unmarked grave, otherwise his tombstone is sure to get p*ssed on and vandalised.

[Shadow]

When the time comes that midget mongoloid prez better hope he gets buried in an unknown unmarked grave, otherwise his tombstone is sure to get p*ssed on and vandalised.

Do you really thing they would do that to your grave?

[LiveFromUkraine]

The one who is clueless are you. If you can cheer about people dying, there is no hope for you.

Surprising, isn't it?  People cheering for the death of other human beings.  Many forum members have family that are Russian and these guys would cheer at the thought of them dying. 


Reminds me of images like this.

[AkMike]

It's not so much about the cheering for the dead ones as it is the Ukrainian lives spared because of their deaths.

If they had stayed in Russia and not invaded Ukraine they'd be breathing.

[LiveFromUkraine]

It's not so much about the cheering for the dead ones as it is the Ukrainian lives spared because of their deaths.

If they had stayed in Russia and not invaded Ukraine they'd be breathing.

Are you saying the Russians fighting have a say in where they go?