Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?

[JayH]

BB-- you have lost the plot-

Like I said BB-- virtually every thing you comment on has been covered ad nauseum on this forum-- best you read it.

Oh btw-- you think I am disgusted with Russia? Ask a few  of our Ukrainian posters on this forum what they think of Russia today-- try Sirlitz of MsA for starters-  I consider my comments moderate compared to how many Ukrainians I know feel about Russia today---like I said to you previously-- your comments are from a bygone age.

[mendeleyev]

Sanctions never worked with North Korea, Iran, and Cuba. They surely won't work with a major power like Russia. Sanctions will only delay the inevitable. Hurting Russia's economy isn't the goal of the sanctions. The goal of the sanctions is to get Russia to back off Ukraine and give back Crimea. It's not working

Billy, actually they are working. The Western sanctions are primarily aimed at certain individuals and companies, and on lines of credit.

In fact, Putin's sanctions/bans of Western products are among the most effective when it comes to impacting Russian consumers.

[Shadow]

Billy, actually they are working. The Western sanctions are primarily aimed at certain individuals and companies, and on lines of credit.

In fact, Putin's sanctions/bans of Western products are among the most effective when it comes to impacting Russian consumers.

The sanctions by themselve would have had little effect. However the move of pressuring the oil price was genius.

[Shadow]

Like I said BB-- virtually every thing you comment on has been covered ad nauseum on this forum-- best you read it.

Oh btw-- you think I am disgusted with Russia? Ask a few  of our Ukrainian posters on this forum what they think of Russia today-- try Sirlitz of MsA for starters-  I consider my comments moderate compared to how many Ukrainians I know feel about Russia today---like I said to you previously-- your comments are from a bygone age.

Those guys who visited charlieHebdo were also just doing a moderate protest.

[fathertime]

. Putin viewed sanctions as actions of the weak.


 . Bowing down to sanctions is the last thing I expect from Putin. Weak actions from weak leaders will not discourage him but it will 100% piss him off.

You said this 8 months ago and have been proven correct...to this point....


Fathertime!

[BillyB]

Billy, actually they are working. The Western sanctions are primarily aimed at certain individuals and companies, and on lines of credit.

You are right that sanctions are primarily aimed at certain individuals and companies in Russia but lets not fool ourselves. Average Russians who aren't targeted or rich are feeling serious pain from the sanctions and they are more likely to direct their anger at the West instead of Putin. Doesn't matter if Putin is feeding them propaganda, reality is the West is the guilty party applying the sanctions that's hurting their quality of life. Take away people's money and food, they can get vicious. Putin needs his citizens angry at the West to accomplish his goals.


Obama recently lifted the sanctions against Cuba realizing Cuba will never give back what they stole. Ironically Obama, who has shown he has no faith in sanctions working against small time Cuba, wants Putin and citizens of the free world to believe sanctions will work on big bear Russia. Go figure. North Korea and Iran will eventually get nukes and the ballistic missiles to deliver them. Putin knows the song and dance Iran and North Korea plays very well and to the same tune he will eventually gain control over Ukraine once again. America didn't gain it's freedom from the British Empire without the support of France and their weapons. Ukraine won't know freedom until the West is willing to give them real support and weapons. The West needs to get Putin to realize lots of Russians will die if he proceeds with his goals.

[Brasscasing]

As I've already explained..Putin is yours as much as he is mine...the contraction issue notwithstanding!

You've explained nothing of the sort. What you did was misunderstand an article of speech in an overzealous attempt to deliberately misconstrue my comment. 

Putin doesn't meet the qualifications as a despot...he doesn't have to total power necessary....Stalin did meet the qualifications.

Repeating the mantra won't make it correct. He meets all the criteria for being a despot including the two invalid reasons you erroneously tried to pass off as proof he wasn't a despot up thread.

 
Although Calmissile id a good job of discussing the nuclear protocol from what he knows...That doesn't include that there are protocols that he is not aware of.  I don't think it is convincing that our country would have a protocol that allows for a president to simply decide to fire missiles without provocation...During an actual live exchange I'll concede he probably does (as he should)...but not preemptively and without a real-time threat in progress. 

Already explained to you by multiple members. Feel free to rationalize all the protocols into existence you need to if it helps you sleep at night. Just don't try and pass your fears off as fact when discussing them with me.

You have said a little more than this regarding Russia's abilities, and by logical extension ability to fire missiles, like this:...

Yes I have. Do you find my comment inconsistent in some way to anything else I've posted or my position on the issue?

But that is unimportant for the moment.  There will be no 'winners' if nukes fall.  What it would take us to make it  'overwhelming, destructive, and final" would be ruinous on a global scale.   Like it or not Russia is our equal in that respect.

It's unimportant*period* and not really relevant as a rebuttal as well but whatever.

Nope. Another unwarranted assumption on your part. Russia is not NATO's equal with strategic assets and hasn't been since the early 90's. MAD is not an option for your Mr. Putin. I suspect he probably does as much rationalizing as you do on this issue though based on his off the cuff we have nucs so don't mess with us comments.

My apologies if I attributed feelings that you don't have.  Based on your prior posts, among other things,you are calling for direct military intervention in Ukraine from NATO which of course includes us...The way that plays out is a whole lot of killing....or maybe you see it playing out differently.

I've also stated several times that if Russia doesn't deviate from it's path of unprovoked aggression and breach of the peace with it's neighboring countries that a shooting war is unavoidable.

Brass 

[AC]

The Ukrainian military always had and still has numerical superiority over the rebels and Russian troops but they can't gain ground so Poroshenko had to agree to a cease fire to buy time to enlist help from the West. Ukrainian soldiers may have the spirit to fight but they are poorly led, poorly trained and poorly equipped. They can't beat a smaller force on their home turf. Remember Poroshenko's first day in office? He say he would get the rebels out in 24 hrs or something to that tune. He greatly overestimated his military's abilities and readiness. Overestimating one's abilities can get a lot of people killed. Poroshenko to his credit realized his military's capabilities. You should too. The Ukraine's military is not capable of securing it's country against a much smaller force. They need serious help.



Sanctions never worked with North Korea, Iran, and Cuba. They surely won't work with a major power like Russia. Sanctions will only delay the inevitable. Hurting Russia's economy isn't the goal of the sanctions. The goal of the sanctions is to get Russia to back off Ukraine and give back Crimea. It's not working. Sanctions rarely hurt the leaders of the nations that it's applied to. Putin and his cronies will always live the good life. The people will suffer and they will either hate Putin, which hasn't happened on a large scale, or acquire a desire to kill you. If you get killed by a rebel during a visit to Ukraine, some of our Russian members may feel joy and feel that you deserved it. They hate many of the things you've written here. When enough Russians get angry and have the desire to kill or see Westerners suffer, Putin will have the green light for war. Unlike the small, uncooperative nations previously mentioned, Russia has the option of war as a way to lift sanctions and inflict major economic damage to those applying the sanctions.

Great post and a voice of reason.  Ukrainian soldiers have the will to fight but they need better training and weapons.  The USA the UK and France should be ashamed at having signed the Budapest memorandum yet being so unwilling and slow to give real aid.

So far it looks to be Canada and Great Britain who are doing the most.  Considering the historical nature of Churchill during WWII this is something to be admired and applauded.

Sanctions are very good along with the unexpected drop in oil prices, but BB is correct that they really only piss-off Putin and that his hands are not tied.  He could invade and be all the way to Moldova within a week if he wanted to, and all because of the West not living up to their treaty obligations.

[Boethius]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18671.msg387363#msg387363

Thanks for the link, Изумруд.   I think the Americans will do fine, but it is unfortunate that monies that could be spent on something more productive will be wasted on this project.
 

[Изумруд]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18671.msg387363#msg387363

Thanks for the link, Изумруд.   I think the Americans will do fine, but it is unfortunate that monies that could be spent on something more productive will be wasted on this project.

Yes Boe, absolutely!

[mendeleyev]

The sanctions by themselve would have had little effect.

You very obviously do not live in Russia. The price of oil has less to do with finding certain foods at the market, while the reverse sanctions by Putin has very much to do with everyday products.

[fathertime]

You've explained nothing of the sort. What you did was misunderstand an article of speech in an overzealous attempt to deliberately misconstrue my comment. 

Repeating the mantra won't make it correct. He meets all the criteria for being a despot including the two invalid reasons you erroneously tried to pass off as proof he wasn't a despot up thread.

 

He does not meet all the criteria to be a despot repeating the mantra that he is a despot doesn't make it true....he does not have absolute power. 

Already explained to you by multiple members. Feel free to rationalize all the protocols into existence you need to if it helps you sleep at night. Just don't try and pass your fears off as fact when discussing them with me.

The fact remains that you, nor any member here know for sure what all the protocols are....so no one here can say with certainty what they are....

Yes I have. Do you find my comment inconsistent in some way to anything else I've posted or my position on the issue?

It doesn't matter if your comment is 'consistent' when it is consistently wrong.  You have stated that Russia is no more a threat then Ghadafi or Saddam....you are incorrect, but you are consistent.   

Nope. Another unwarranted assumption on your part. Russia is not NATO's equal with strategic assets and hasn't been since the early 90's. MAD is not an option for your Mr. Putin. I suspect he probably does as much rationalizing as you do on this issue though based on his off the cuff we have nucs so don't mess with us comments.

Russia has the ability to destroy the planet 3 times over but we can 6 times over...what is the difference?  They are our equal in that respect and blinding yourself to that fact doesn't make it go away. 

 your Mr. Putin.

He is as much YOUR Mr. Putin, as he is mine! When discussing the issues with me you can refer to him as OUR Mr Putin. 

I've also stated several times that if Russia doesn't deviate from it's path of unprovoked aggression and breach of the peace with it's neighboring countries that a shooting war is unavoidable.

Brass 

"With it's neighboring countries" entails a lot more than solely what is happening in Ukraine...and you are also stating unequivocally that the aggression is/was unprovoked.   Screaming past Russia, and talking in absolutes is sure to get us in an avoidable shooting war ...especially in Ukraine.


Fathertime!

[Gator]

You very obviously do not live in Russia. The price of oil has less to do with finding certain foods at the market, while the reverse sanctions by Putin has very much to do with everyday products.

For example, Putin banned EU apples. However, I hear the Poles sold their apples  to Belarus who them shipped them to Russia, at a much higher cost of course.   Who is going to know whether the apple was grown on a tree in Poland or Belarus? 

A Mercedes_Benz is another matter.  What is happening with luxury cars?  Lexus deliveries have skyrocketed? 

[mendeleyev]

And that is one of Putin's issues now with Belarus, and Kazakhstan, as he suspects they are both allowing this sort of thing to happen. It is happening, and that has widened the cracks of that Eurasian relationship.

[AC]

And that is one of Putin's issues now with Belarus, and Kazakhstan, as he suspects they are both allowing this sort of thing to happen. It is happening, and that has widened the cracks of that Eurasian relationship.

And if you got to Vienna with Shadow you can purchase some Dutch clothes given to poor Poles who are now selling them in Vienna.

[jone]

And that is one of Putin's issues now with Belarus, and Kazakhstan, as he suspects they are both allowing this sort of thing to happen. It is happening, and that has widened the cracks of that Eurasian relationship.

I think that the Eurasian Union, or whatever name they take moving forward is DOA.

[AkMike]

Much like the Kremlin.. The heart is still beating but the EEG is flat lined! 

[deccie]

The sanctions by themselve would have had little effect. However the move of pressuring the oil price was genius.

That genius is having significant side effects. It is destroying the US shale oil industry and any European states with any significant oil industry left may also close their doors soon.

[deccie]

The banks are appearing to be more and more precarious here.

Some of the current antics:

1. Closing unused credit cards. Forcing people to reapply with greatly increased % repayments.

2. 100% spread between buy and sell prices for Euro and USD. (clearly they don't want to sell them).

3. Not refilling bankomats when they get empty.

4. Asking people for a reason why they want to withdraw their cash.

We have seen examples of all these locally.

Some banks have also stopped giving credit for home loans under any conditions.

[deccie]

You very obviously do not live in Russia. The price of oil has less to do with finding certain foods at the market, while the reverse sanctions by Putin has very much to do with everyday products.

That is true but the price of oil impacts two things directly or indirectly:

1. The Russian budget which then feeds into pensions and govt salaries as well as business contracts.

2. Impacts on the exchange rate which then impact prices of imported goods.

The price of milk has risen by more an 50% in the last 6 months here. (It's about 70 rubles a litre here) Eggs area also up a lot. Yet both are domestically produced and not impacted by sanctions of either side directly. But, they are impacted by the fall in the relative buying power of the ruble.

[mendeleyev]

Russia has historically imported a significant amount of diary products. One of the reasons for those price increases are increased pressure on local supply.

[deccie]

From what I saw here it was primarily cheese, yogurt and UHT treated milk that was imported - not fresh.

[JayH]

Ukraine is now blocking the transit of eggs from Turkey across its territory if bound for Russia-- so that will lead to shortage and price hike.
Just another link in a chain.

[jone]

Russia has historically imported a significant amount of diary products. One of the reasons for those price increases are increased pressure on local supply.

Dear Diary,

No milk today.  No Morozhene either.  Oh, Crap.

[mendeleyev]

I eat some ice cream and yogurt sometimes, but am allergic to most diary products. (Sheep and goats milk are fine, for some reason). That being said, I have not been a bug Russian milk consumer but can remember the late 1990s and early 2000s when cousin Natasha had coupons to buy milk for the children. As we were older, my wife would save our coupon allotment for Natasha. I have not heard about the need for milk coupons for years now.

Perhaps the single biggest event that changed Russian agriculture and farming was the arrival of McDonald's. Although they have since sold most land and factory holdings (as a planned move), when they first arrived, Russia simply could not produce products in the amounts, and of consistent quality, to supply early Western restaurants. Much of the development of certain products and the creating of distribution systems is due to Mickey D. Today, except for ketchup which is made by John Kerry's wife at a factory in the Baltics, almost 100% of McDonald's products are local.

Companies like Kroshka-Kartoshka (Little Potato) were plagued with inconsistent potato size and quality in their early days. The CCCP had just not understood how consumers value a consistent product from location to location, and Kroshka had to help farmers learn how to grow the kind of potatoes that their chain could use. Today, no matter which city, you can expect a high quality potato of uniform size at their restaurants.

Over the last several years Kroshka-Kartoshka has implemented a regular program similar to the "undercover boss" idea, and the company reports that quality is up since instituting those visits. The company says that 70% of Kroshka-Kartoshka customers are regular repeat clients (like myself), and they are still in the process of teaching employees the importance of consistent and quality product from location to location. According to company executives, one of the biggest issues is when employees over-stuff a baked potato for one customer, and then under-stuff for another.