Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?

[Steamer]

And of course Russia needs to be contained.  Look at it's history present and past.  Are you blind?

Nope. What do you expect to happen when you threaten a country's existence? Thanks? Roll over and play dead? Not going to happen. What the US, EU or anyone else thinks doesn't matter, it's how Russia perceives all this that determines how Russia will respond. I think you need to find a new enemy.

[jone]

This is the point I've been trying to make. Russia views all these moves by the US and NATO as a continuing plot to contain Russia. Losing Ukraine will be an existential threat to Russia and they are not going to let that happen. Russia is willing to fight about this and the US is just going to give this lip service (and maybe a few guns). I expect the poop to hit the fan soon and Ukraine will be the biggest loser.

Well, Russia better do something soon.  Or they will have won so much they'll be devastated.  (When I was growing up, my father would comment on my mother's shopping.  She liked to go in big for sales on items.  He used to say "Honey, you'll save us so much money, we'll be broke.")

[onlyFSU4me]

Nope. What do you expect to happen when you threaten a country's existence? Thanks? Roll over and play dead? Not going to happen. What the US, EU or anyone else thinks doesn't matter, it's how Russia perceives all this that determines how Russia will respond. I think you need to find a new enemy.

 Yet Ukraine is supposed to roll over and play dead?   

[Steamer]

Yet Ukraine is supposed to roll over and play dead?   

Oh no, the problem is no one invaded them. Trust me, when Russia goes full on attack there will be no doubt in anyones mind. Especially Ukraines.

[sleepycat]

And of course Russia needs to be contained.  Look at it's history present and past.  Are you blind?

Best solution will be to orchestrate the breakup of RF into multiple sovereign tiny republics. Then encourage these republics to be constantly at each other's throat thus keeping them all weak.

Ooooops better not say this out too loud. Read somewhere there is a law making this suggestion a criminal offence!
 

[Gator]

Losing Ukraine will be an existential threat to Russia and they are not going to let that happen.

Doesn't Ukraine have a voice in deciding how it wants to be aligned?    A sovereign country has the right to choose its own path, and Ukraine wants to develop a Western style economy not subordinated to Russia. 

   Russia is willing to fight about this....   

Comparable to the domineering, controlling husband not wanting his wife to divorce him, so he becomes more abusive to her.  Maybe if the husband had been more understanding and helpful, his wife would not leave him.  Russia lost Ukraine a long time ago, and Ukraine is not coming back, especially after this bloody war. 

[calmissile]

Oh no, the problem is no one invaded them. Trust me, when Russia goes full on attack there will be no doubt in anyones mind. Especially Ukraines.

I think you are being served too much propaganda with your corn flakes in the mornings.   

There is irrefutable proof that regular Russian troops are in East Ukraine and have military hardware supplied by Russia.  You think Russian 'volunteers' just walk off with advanced military weapons?   Give me a break!

You deny that Russia invaded Crimea prior to their phony referendum?

With all the testimony from the Russian terrorists taking credit for downing MH17, and all the photo evidence, you deny that the rocket launcher that brought it down came from Russia?

[Taz]

To your point, this is pretty interesting read.


"Pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine have employed at least 21 weapons and vehicles that were not previously found in the country, according to an arms research company, bolstering claims that Russia has equipped the rebels. [/size]The weapons—all but one of which came from Russia—include man-portable air defense systems (MANPADs), rocket launchers, anti-tank munitions, and small arms, according to a[/color][/size] [/color][/size]report[/color][/size] [/color][/size]by Armament Research Services (ARES). MANPADs of Polish origin were also observed in Ukraine."[/color]



More here:


http://freebeacon.com/national-security/report-eastern-ukraine-flooded-with-russian-made-weapons/?


Sorry about the formatting issues. For some reason there are problems not matter how I post text into this forum regardless of what browser I use. There is no way I can clean it up not matter what I've tried. The forum changes the HTML tags.

[Gator]

Trust me, when Russia goes full on attack there will be no doubt in anyones mind. Especially Ukraines.

Russia would win no doubt, about as quick as Nazis conquering Poland.   However, a large invasion would cause too much repercussion on the world stage.  Instead, Putin opted for a stealth invasion using proxies, mercenaries, volunteers and limited regular troops, and giving them unlimited arms.  Putin denies, denies, denies.....knowing that he may convince some blockheads that he is not behind the conflict in Ukraine.  Reading your posts, Putin is correct.   And he has no reason to believe his plan will fail.   

[fathertime]

Nope. What do you expect to happen when you threaten a country's existence? Thanks? Roll over and play dead? Not going to happen. What the US, EU or anyone else thinks doesn't matter, it's how Russia perceives all this that determines how Russia will respond. I think you need to find a new enemy.

+266


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

What do you expect to happen when you threaten a country's existence?

Except that no one was ever threatening Russia's existence.

[mendeleyev]

To say that Ukraine has not been invaded is blind madness. Too many videos and photos, from citizens to journalists, and there will never be enough for those defending/excusing the invasion.

Look at the older tanks and rocket launchers and you'll see Novorossiya emblems or flags. The newer stuff, just like Crimea, was apparently purchased off the shelf at the local Army (new) Surplus store. Which is funny if you've ever been to one in the FSU.

[Steamer]

To say that Ukraine has not been invaded is blind madness. Too many videos and photos, from citizens to journalists, and there will never be enough for those defending/excusing the invasion.

That's like calling the US "advisors" in Afghanistan an invasion. A presence sure but invasion?

[Taz]

Far more Russian in Ukraine than the US had advisors in Afghanistan. Looks like Russia is ready to go "all in" now.


http://www.interpretermag.com/moscow-readying-a-massive-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-golts-says/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2831620/NATO-says-Russian-troops-Ukraine.html

[Belvis]

You deny that Russia invaded Crimea prior to their phony referendum?

Why phony? Because you don't like the result?
Here is the recent survey poll made by Ukrainian agency:
http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2015/02/4/7057470/


I'll translate:
82% of Crimeans supports completely reunification of Crimea with Russia;
11% of Crimeans supports conditionally;
And only 7% doubts or against reunification.

Don't challenge the will of people             

[Taz]

Polling people is very problematic in Russia. I can assure you the Tatars had no desire to be reunified with Russia. There was also polling done before the invasion and there was not a strong desire to be part of Russia.


Any reasonable person knows this was instigated by Russia. I was there, I saw it with my own eyes. After Russia invaded, then a referendum was made. There was NO OPTION on the ballot to remain part of Ukraine.


Basically the choices were:


Do you want to be Russia's bitch but be a quasi-separate entity?
or
Do you want to be totally part of Russia?


There was no option other than those options on the referendum. Keep in mind that when this was done it was totally under the guidance/control of Russia or its local puppets. They oversaw the voting and when you look at the stats, there is no way that almost 100% of all Tatars voted for the referendum which is what it would have taken to get the voting results they claimed.


Don't forget that the one Russian puppet internally owed (and his companies) over $140,000,000 to Ukrainian banks that conveniently weren't ever repaid after Russia stole Crimea. There was no popular uprising here that was strongly supporting Russia. It was totally the opposite situation of Kiev where thousands of people, on their own accord, were out protesting against Yanukovich.


My in-laws in Crimea absolutely hate the changes that have taken place. Russian carpet baggers have taken over almost everything. Shut Ukrainians (even if ethnic Russians) out of their businesses. All disagreement with Putin is totally shutdown (big surprise there). Forums I used to post on no longer allow ANY posts of dissent against the current situation. So the only viewpoint you can hear/see is ONLY in support of Putin and his cronies. Corruption is even worse there than Russia and that is hard to believe as Russia is one of the most corrupt countries I have been in. Press freedom is non-existent. All the social media sites are controlled by the Kremlin if based in Russia such as VK.com, Odnoklassniki, etc. They have direct access to all your account info and private messages and posts.

[AC]

Why phony? Because you don't like the result?
Here is the recent survey poll made by Ukrainian agency:
http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2015/02/4/7057470/


I'll translate:
82% of Crimeans supports completely reunification of Crimea with Russia;
11% of Crimeans supports conditionally;
And only 7% doubts or against reunification.

Don't challenge the will of people         

When Chechnya and Dagestan hold referendums and vote overwhelmingly to leave Russia (and no little green men holding weapons will be needed) will you say the same thing? 

[Doll]

TAZ, give us the link to Crimean forums. please.

[Taz]

Search for the ones in Sevastopol. I can't access them from where I am at.

[Belvis]

When Chechnya and Dagestan hold referendums and vote overwhelmingly to leave Russia (and no little green men holding weapons will be needed) will you say the same thing?

Sure, I respect the will of people. Do you?

[Taz]

I would respect the will of the people if it isn't at gun point or the end of a tank barrel.


As we say in the US, elections have consequences. Sadly those consequences extend beyond our own borders. The world is suffering in a lot of ways because the US elected such a inept President as Obama.


If Crimea wants to be part of Russia, then then Ukraine needs to be compensated. Russia and Crimea will continue to pay a huge price for this though not as likely has high as they should have. Crimeans basically can only travel to very few countries. They likely will never be able to get visas to the EU or the USA.


They will suffer under far more corruption and oppression than they thought they might have been under with Ukraine. I truly hope in 5 year or so, they will look back and see what a fiasco this was. Ukraine could be on its way to closer ties with the West, more open and less corrupt government and much more freedom of speech. Crimea is ONLY a good place to be if you are one of the Russian carpet baggers or part of the Russian ruling class.

[Belvis]

If Crimea wants to be part of Russia, then then Ukraine needs to be compensated.

No haggling here, sorry. Crimea was paid by Russians with hundreds of  thousands of soldiers over XVIII-XX centeries. Ukraine has got it  free of charge, so no compensations.

[Hammer2722]

No haggling here, sorry. Crimea was paid by Russians with hundreds of  thousands of soldiers over XVIII-XX centeries. Ukraine has got it  free of charge, so no compensations.

Well, gee. I guess we better give Alaska back then...or better yet Russia should just submit its lands to Mongolia since they were conquered at one time by them. Nice justification there genius.

[jone]

Koenigsberg had its population completely relocated so that Russia could claim that the indigenous people are Russians.   So, now, Kaliningrad Oblast is bullet proof from an ethnic uprising.  I see the same thing happening in Crimea.

[AC]

Sure, I respect the will of people. Do you?

1st of all no you won't.  Putin and Russia have shown through two brutal wars that they will not let the will of the people to leave Russia stand in Chechnya.

2nd of all the Crimean referendum was conducted at gunpoint and is therefore illegal per International law.  Even Girkin has come out and admitted that it was a farce.  Tatars in particular knew they should stay home.  One who did not stay home was found tortured and murdered. 

All of that being said I'm sure that Ukraine and the EU would give up on Crimea (at least for the time being) if Russia would get out of E. Ukraine, but they won't.  Putin is going to eventually suffer a very humiliating defeat and it seems that the Russian people need to be humbled as well in order to give up their nationalistic and prejudiced nature towards their neighbors.  Just think of Putler ending his life in a bunker somewhere.  Scoff now but it will happen within 5 years and he brought this destiny upon himself.