What Explains Russians loss of Memory ?

[ML]

This afternoon while we were doing our walking exercise, Ochka and I talked about the current situation in Ukraine.

She went on a great length telling about how in late 1980s and early 1990s, the citizens of all countries of FSU came to learn and understand that they had been lied to continuously by the Soviet Government and the media that was  controlled by the Soviet Government.

She knew that never again would the people of these former SU countries believe the media if it were controlled by the government.

Thus, it is now incomprehensible to her how these same Russian persons are now once again believing what they are being told by the government and media controlled by the government.

This is even more incomprehensible when considering that the Russian people now have access to independent media from around the world that presents a more true picture of the despicable acts committed by Russians and the total fabrication of stories as reported by Russia's government controlled media.

And let's don't hear this crap that USA government also lies to its citizens.

When it does happen, our independent media is all over the story.  No untruth goes uncovered in USA.

He!!, our Commander in Chief cannot even get a BJ to help him relieve stress without it being discovered and reported around the world.

Does anyone have an explanation for this huge loss of memory by Russian persons?

[Boethius]

Most people don't want to have to think too much.

[Boethius]

I would add, Ukrainian media is also controlled.  It has a lot more variety, though, because it is controlled by different oligarchs.  So, depending on who controls a particular media source, a particular message will be sent.  There are, however, pockets of good reporting in Ukraine.  There is a little bit in Russia, too, but less.

[Boethius]

My better half no longer reads any Russian or Ukrainian newspapers.  All his news of the region comes from European papers.  He said he can't trust any of them.  He is someone who never believed anything he read in Soviet papers.  He used to say he had his own eyes, he could see that what they were reporting was all lies.

[Boethius]

Another thing to keep in mind is Russia has a huge disinformation section.  They pay people to post on websites, to post dissenting opinions in newspapers (in the online comments sections), and even on forums. 

[calmissile]

ML, I am as puzzled by this as your are.  I posted a similar question to Mendy.

BTW, we seem to have some members from the West with selective memory also.  Perhaps they were too busy smoking dope or partying to pay attention to the whole cold war era.  Russia's actions (recently) reminds me generally of the same environment we lived through during the cold war.  The difference is that Russia is much weaker militarily today, but still acting like a super-power.  I guess it was time for the bully to try his luck again and found a weaker Europe and USA leadership cowering to his threats.

[calmissile]

Another thing to keep in mind is Russia has a huge disinformation section.  They pay people to post on websites, to post dissenting opinions in newspapers (in the online comments sections), and even on forums.

Duh!  I think we figured that one out some time ago.     

[Faux Pas]

This afternoon while we were doing our walking exercise, Ochka and I talked about the current situation in Ukraine.

She went on a great length telling about how in late 1980s and early 1990s, the citizens of all countries of FSU came to learn and understand that they had been lied to continuously by the Soviet Government and the media that was  controlled by the Soviet Government.

She knew that never again would the people of these former SU countries believe the media if it were controlled by the government.

Thus, it is now incomprehensible to her how these same Russian persons are now once again believing what they are being told by the government and media controlled by the government.

This is even more incomprehensible when considering that the Russian people now have access to independent media from around the world that presents a more true picture of the despicable acts committed by Russians and the total fabrication of stories as reported by Russia's government controlled media.

And let's don't hear this crap that USA government also lies to its citizens.

When it does happen, our independent media is all over the story.  No untruth goes uncovered in USA.

He!!, our Commander in Chief cannot even get a BJ to help him relieve stress without it being discovered and reported around the world.

Does anyone have an explanation for this huge loss of memory by Russian persons?

You need to get your head out of your ass. Your government has been lying all of your life. The difference in you and the Russians you speak of is nil.

[JayH]

Another thing to keep in mind is Russia has a huge disinformation section.  They pay people to post on websites, to post dissenting opinions in newspapers (in the online comments sections), and even on forums.

The Kremlin disinformation section has something like 36,000 people involved !!
This is a massive number and highlights how much importance the Kremlin gives to  selling it's lies.

In another thread- Mende responded to Calmissile's question. The constant bombardment on TV,Radio,Internet and media generally promoting Kremlin angle is hard to resist  for Russians as the aim is to smother alternative views--or in Russia itself--to deny a hearing as much as possible.

Read any forum,newspaper- any and everywhere in the world  the Kremlin trolls are super  active  in trying to drown others comments.

A few days ago I posted an academics assessment of the Russian economy-- entwined with some factual reality of numbers ( a negative) were some reinforcements of the craziness of the current ideolgy--plausibe at first glance  and a typical way of wrapping the Kremlin BS.

One only needs to look at the misguided on the forums to see the result of people happy to try and tell the world that black is white !
Here is the comments made that seem very appropriate to this thread--
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Offline mendeleyev
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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #80 on: Yesterday at 01:54:49 AM »
Quote
Please help me understand the dynamics of why Russians are anti-USA when we helped them in WWII and had a decent relationship over the past 20 years.

Thank you, Doug for your thoughtful reply.

I do see some similarities as you mention. However, as neither of us were around during that war, or at least adults as I don't know your age, it is difficult to make an accurate comparison beyond the leadership level.

In Russia today it is difficult to discern the truth. Laws passed, and ownership of media, have squeezed out most competing voices. The vast majority of Russians get their news on TV and Russian news spews a constant diet of extremely anti-west stories. Earlier this morning there was a talk show on a station that normally plays smooth jazz music, and that show host and the guest took an hour to replay all the supposed evils of Western morals and then concluded that democracy was to blame.

When one walks on the street, listens to radio, or reads any publications, the theme is a constant pounding of "we are being attacked, or about to be attacked, and we must be ready to resist the USA and NATO who are going to blast our children to kingdom come, and likely soon." It is nonstop, one lie or half truth after another.  This incessant indoctrination, and that is what it is, is much like torture--is designed to control the mind and emotions.

As to us helping win the war, most certainly. Stalin begged and begged the West for help and we gave it, then entered the war too. However, most Russians have been taught from childhood that the West was about to go under and only the intervention of Russia saved Europe from Nazi domination. Most Russians really have no idea how countries like England, Canada, the USA and others sacrificed. They look at 28-30 million lives lost, compare our causality figures, and dismiss our efforts. They have no frame of reference to understand how Stalin mismanaged the war, even according to his own generals, and how many lives were lost because of his wartime policies.

Now that is not to take away from those lives lost, or from those who fought to save the Motherland, but a Russian is raised from childhood with the belief that the West had little to do with the war.

This is programming of the mind that would make L Ron Hubbard jealous. The Soviets had decades to perfect it, and with the KGB really in control, it is truly a miracle that 100 percent of the population hasn't fallen in line. I remember during the Crimea crisis that almost every Russian media outlet, including billboards, went into a theme of victory over the Nazis (Germany). Soon thereafter the theme was adjusted slightly to victory of the Nazis (Ukraine), and the next phase was protecting the homeland from NATO.

But change is coming. I don't know when, but I can feel it. It may be years, or months for all I know, but at some point the dam will break. The last thing the West needs is an angry and humiliated populace that will react by following the next ultra nationalist mad man.

This problem took a long time coming. It has been fermenting since Moldova and Georgia, and the West deserves some blame for not stepping up then. Now there is a lot of water under the bridge, and as I love to mix metaphors, we cannot expect change on a dime as the expression goes.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:58:41 AM by mendeleyev »
END QUOTE

[JayH]

 

[Shadow]

ML, I am as puzzled by this as your are.  I posted a similar question to Mendy.

BTW, we seem to have some members from the West with selective memory also.  Perhaps they were too busy smoking dope or partying to pay attention to the whole cold war era.  Russia's actions (recently) reminds me generally of the same environment we lived through during the cold war.  The difference is that Russia is much weaker militarily today, but still acting like a super-power.  I guess it was time for the bully to try his luck again and found a weaker Europe and USA leadership cowering to his threats.

If it reminds you of the Cold War, the mission of the US media has succeeded.

[Shadow]

My better half no longer reads any Russian or Ukrainian newspapers.  All his news of the region comes from European papers.  He said he can't trust any of them.  He is someone who never believed anything he read in Soviet papers.  He used to say he had his own eyes, he could see that what they were reporting was all lies.

I would suggest him to take the news of European newspapers with a grain of salt as well. Try social media, but restrict to a short time after the news breaks, before the disinfromation and spinning crews start writing.

[AC]

Russians have a loss of memory because they have mold spores in their brain.

excerpt
Then there was the television, which I never worked on, with a more sinister mission: political-psychological control. The approach could be deeply counterintuitive. NTV, for example, one of the country’s biggest networks, doesn’t try to pretend Russia is a rosy place like Soviet channels used to do—which is also how they lost credibility with viewers. Quite the opposite: It shows non-stop horror stories about how dangerous the country is, encouraging the viewer to look to the “strong hand” of the Kremlin for protection. Even supposedly “science-based” programs are used for manipulative effect. The most expensive documentary ever shown on Russian television aired in 2009 and was called Plesen (“Mold”). It argued that mold is taking over the Earth—an invisible but omnipresent enemy whose evil spores have been invading our lives, causing death and disease. When the film aired it caused a panic, with people running out to buy anti-mold machines and calling into the network from all over the country, asking for help.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/putin-russia-tv-113960.html#ixzz3O3zpeVbz

[Muzh]

I remember my first trip to the former Soyuz, when my wife would proudly say she had Russian heritage (don't go there), and I met many people in Eastern Ukraine. One time we were in the middle of nowhere spending the night at the place of one of her former co-worker. We had a pleasant dinner, actually there was enough food to feed an army. And we made toasts. Many of them.


At one point, one of their neighbors who was having dinner with us asked me point blank why I accepted the CIA's killing of Samantha Smith. (Google her)


I had no clue what the hell he was talking about. Eventually, after he explained to me what she did and who she met, I realized who he was talking about.


Then I remembered how she died.


She was "killed" by the CIA. Yeah. Sure.


Things don't change.

[mendeleyev]

Does anyone have an explanation for this huge loss of memory by Russian persons?

ML, first off, Merry Christmas! If memory serves, you are a historian by profession and I cannot tell you something that you don't already know, but allow me to give my view on your question.

Yes, I think that the answer, or at least part of it, can be found in how Russians have developed two tracks over a great period of time.

One: is the siege mentality after experiencing so many invasions over the centuries. Russia is a land of multiple Kremlins; the name meaning "fortress" because they were often in danger from outside powers.

Two: is an inferiority complex. Only 23% of Russia is in Europe, but that represents almost 40% of Europe's land mass. Yet, Russia has always felt isolated by Europe. That was true for ancient Tsars and still true today by those in the Kremlin. True, for centuries Europe viewed Russia as backward and the people as uneducated. Peter the Great's great motivation in life was to bring Russia into European life.

However, much of Russia's isolation has been self imposed. I don't remember who said it, but a Russian statesman once observed (loose paraphrase) that "where Russia's border ends, there Europe begins."

Russians have always felt a strong sense of nationalism, and have adopted a "them against us" mentality, but that has not stopped them from conquering new territories. As you say, the memory is very selective at times.

[Gator]

.

Does anyone have an explanation for this huge loss of memory by Russian persons?

I too wonder about this.  Consider RWD's Doll.  She lived as an adult in Soviet days, yet seemingly accepts all Russian media reports today as truth, not propaganda.  I recall in one post asking her the question.  No answer given. 

A few Russians in Florida have told me that today's Kiev government is similar to Nazi Germany's government.  In response I asked them directly why would England, France, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. who fought a horrible war against Fascism would now support Fascism in Ukraine.  No answer given. 

[Shadow]

I too wonder about this.  Consider RWD's Doll.  She lived as an adult in Soviet days, yet seemingly accepts all Russian media reports today as truth, not propaganda.  I recall in one post asking her the question.  No answer given. 

A few Russians in Florida have told me that today's Kiev government is similar to Nazi Germany's government.  In response I asked them directly why would England, France, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. who fought a horrible war against Fascism would now support Fascism in Ukraine.  No answer given.

The answer to that is very simple. Governments support the side they feel will be most beneficial to them, regardless of ideology.
Besdes that, the fight was against NaZism, which is fascism combines with socialism.

[Boethius]

Except that, the Ukrainian government is not Nazi or fascist.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I have to say I do get a good chuckle out of people who think they know what is really going on and their media is telling the truth.


Our media may not be state controlled, but it surely is profit controlled these days.  All you have to do is look at who owns the media.  It isn't about telling the truth, it's about ad revenue. 


I just find it strange that people can't see that and then they go on to say Russians are blind. 


There is so much disinformation out there most people wouldn't know where to begin in order to find the truth.  I know I don't have all the time in the world to research everything in order to figure out who is telling the truth and who is not.  Yet we have some Einsteins here who think they have everything figured out because, well, "Western Media" said  so and they are not state controlled like those other guys.

[Boethius]

Western media is more diverse, it is not state controlled, and many Western media outlets do attempt to get both sides to a story.

[Gator]

You need to get your head out of your ass. Your government has been lying all of your life.

True.  Reefer Madness, Gulf of Tonkin,  read my lips no new taxes, TWA 800, I did not have sexual relations with that woman, WMD in Iraq, you can keep your health plan if you like it, etc.

The difference in you and the Russians you speak of is nil.

I see one huge difference.  In America eventually the truth is discovered, and when it is, no new lie is made up to extend the original lie.  It seems based on the Ukrainian conflict that Russia perpetuates the lies or at least the target of the lies, never admitting a lie.

Another difference is that truth seekers in America are not an isolated small number.  And they are allowed to pursue truth mostly unfettered even when the case is considered closed, e. g. JFK's assassination.   

Nevertheless, I wonder how many American government lies have never been disclosed and we accept them today as fact.

 

[Faux Pas]

I too wonder about this.  Consider RWD's Doll.  She lived as an adult in Soviet days, yet seemingly accepts all Russian media reports today as truth, not propaganda.  I recall in one post asking her the question.  No answer given. 

A few Russians in Florida have told me that today's Kiev government is similar to Nazi Germany's government.  In response I asked them directly why would England, France, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. who fought a horrible war against Fascism would now support Fascism in Ukraine.  No answer given.

This is something I'm just learning, not understanding mind you but learning. The bunker down "us versus them" mentality still very much permeates deep in the Russian society and psyche. As a society they've experienced much adversity. They came through it as Russians. Not Slavs, Orthodox, Tartar, communists, or any persuasion but Russian. It still has a high value and appeal much like being an American did in the 60's, -80's. The difference to the modern day Russian perhaps is, they didn't believe any news reports in the Soviet days and overall don't pay much attention to them now. However, most always answer the call to Russian when the bell is rung.

Most Russians I know are very intelligent and highly educated yet, probably half of them are blindly believing the Russian propaganda versus the Western version. The other half are somewhere on the fence in the middle. Baffling, very baffling. That said. I'm not believing the Western version either. For me the truth lies somewhere in the middle but like American politics that doesn't exist any longer for most folks. It seems one has to be all in or all out

[Shadow]

Western media is more diverse, it is not state controlled, and many Western media outlets do attempt to get both sides to a story.

Who owns the BBC?

[Boethius]

The people of Britain.  Flawed as the BBC may be in some respects, it is not an organ of government in its reporting.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Western media is more diverse, it is not state controlled, and many Western media outlets do attempt to get both sides to a story.

Bo, I agree with some but the attempting to get both sides statement depends on context.  I think the days of strictly facts are long gone and companies push their agenda through media companies they have purchased has replaced them.