Ukraine is losing the war

[Steamer]

Russia is already doing the same thing. They are currently supplying weapons into Ukraine and shooting down Ukraine's military planes and a civilian airliner. I guess that's their method of imposing a no fly policy.

IMHO Ukraine is already a proxy war between the US and Russia. Keeping a level of deniability about events prevents things from becoming a direct war. Declaring a no fly zone makes it direct and neither side wants that.


This is what a cold war looks like.

[Muzh]

IMHO Ukraine is already a proxy war between the US and Russia. Keeping a level of deniability about events prevents things from becoming a direct war. Declaring a no fly zone makes it direct and neither side wants that.


This is what a cold war looks like.

As I was saying to another member, read the above.


Now, imagine if the USA would have gotten involved.

[Steamer]

Now, imagine if the USA would have gotten involved.

You don't think we are?

[Muzh]

You don't think we are?

Not the way you are thinking.

[jone]

IMHO Ukraine is already a proxy war between the US and Russia. Keeping a level of deniability about events prevents things from becoming a direct war. Declaring a no fly zone makes it direct and neither side wants that.


This is what a cold war looks like.

From Russia's point of view, you are probably correct.  They see Ukraine as a proxy war.  But does the US think that Ukraine is a proxy war with Russia .......... nah, Russia's not important enough to even hold the US's attention.  It is just a big gas station on the border of Europe.

[Steamer]

From Russia's point of view, you are probably correct.  They see Ukraine as a proxy war.  But does the US think that Ukraine is a proxy war with Russia .......... nah, Russia's not important enough to even hold the US's attention.  It is just a big gas station on the border of Europe.

Then why is the US causing so much trouble in Ukraine? To make it so Ukraine can frolic in the tulips? No, the US wants controlling influence over the real estate.

[jone]

The US is not making trouble in Ukraine, from my point of view. 

The US is reacting to a country that is trying to get out from the shadow of oppression.  The US has been EXTREMELY restrained in how it has responded. 

1. It has not sent lethal weapons.  The only military support offered has been defensive and non-lethal.
2. No one has proven US participation in Maidan. 
3. The US has worked through its European allies and helped (although in a stilted fashion) through loan guarantees.

Ultimately, if you have followed the many threads, you will see that most of us have advocated that the US not participate in military assistance.  And that is the current response.

As for controlling influence, your understanding of foreign policy is somewhat stilted.  The US will NEVER control the real estate.  Ukraine MAY become a part of the European Union, although it is not looking likely currently.  Ukraine has, directly in response to Russian aggression, altered its non-affiliated status.  It has requested participation in NATO which will not be granted.

[calmissile]

Then why is the US causing so much trouble in Ukraine? To make it so Ukraine can frolic in the tulips? No, the US wants controlling influence over the real estate.

I think your Russian wife is feeding you too much propaganda along with dinner.   

[Boethius]

Then why is the US causing so much trouble in Ukraine? To make it so Ukraine can frolic in the tulips? No, the US wants controlling influence over the real estate.

If the U.S. had wanted controlling influence over the real estate, they would have managed it better over the last two decades.

[calmissile]

If the U.S. had wanted controlling influence over the real estate, they would have managed it better over the last two decades.

   Yes, Sevastopol and Balaklava  would have made a nice base, especially with the sub base in the mountain.   

[JayH]

Then why is the US causing so much trouble in Ukraine? To make it so Ukraine can frolic in the tulips? No, the US wants controlling influence over the real estate.

Complete and utter rubbish. You think Doll's comments look crazy? Your are in the same boat.
Your insular petty US centric comments simply show ignorance of a bigger world out there that does not think everything revolves around the US-- that is what Putin is trying to sell his sheep to justify his craziness.

[lordtiberius]

Between January 13 and 14, Ukraine shrank by 300 kms during a so-called cease fire.  A no-fly zone, loans,  weapons and training are in order.

[Hammer2722]

I think your Russian wife is feeding you too much propaganda along with dinner.   

 

[fathertime]

Complete and utter rubbish. You think Doll's comments look crazy? Your are in the same boat.
Your insular petty US centric comments simply show ignorance of a bigger world out there that does not think everything revolves around the US-- that is what Putin is trying to sell his sheep to justify his craziness.

There goes General Jay again!  Calling Steamer 'crazy' and 'ignorant' because he dare state a viewpoint that the armchair General disapproves of!   


Fathertime!   

[lonedrake]

 I agree with the article and it is something that my wife has been telling me for a long time.  The Generals are corrupt and do not have a clue what to do …. and furthermore….don't even care. Just looking for another way to make money. We give them supplies…they sell them.

As far as Porshenko goes……my wife says he has sold out Ukraine and needs to be shot. She is not kidding either.

[lordtiberius]

The mobilization affects my wife's family.  I agree in part with steamer.  This is a proxy war.  I also agree with his critics that the US is not waging the war it is currently in.  A fault both familiar and peculiar to our national fabric.

[AC]

Then why is the US causing so much trouble in Ukraine? To make it so Ukraine can frolic in the tulips? No, the US wants controlling influence over the real estate.

 


If what you wrote was even remotely true we could have had that 20 years ago.  We could also have it now, since Poroshenko went to Congress and asked for help. 

[JayH]

From Russia's point of view, you are probably correct.  They see Ukraine as a proxy war.  But does the US think that Ukraine is a proxy war with Russia .......... nah, Russia's not important enough to even hold the US's attention.  It is just a big gas station on the border of Europe.

Yep-- and soon it will be like a gas station the new freeway bypassed and took all the traffic with it-- sitting in the middle of nowhere with overpriced gas and no customers!!

[mendeleyev]

Odd that Putin sends a "peace plan" to Poroshenko at the same time that he sends in the Russian version of the "Arrow" (Стрела) anti-aircraft systems.

[lordtiberius]

Odd that Putin sends a "peace plan" to Poroshenko at the same time that he sends in the Russian version of the "Arrow" (Стрела) anti-aircraft systems.

Do you think a diplomatic solution can be found with the current President of Russia?  Or should a miltary solution be imposed?  How do you see this ending?  Or does this have an end?

[JayH]

Odd that Putin sends a "peace plan" to Poroshenko at the same time that he sends in the Russian version of the "Arrow" (Стрела) anti-aircraft systems.

Do you think a diplomatic solution can be found with the current President of Russia?  Or should a miltary solution be imposed?  How do you see this ending?  Or does this have an end?

On those points----I was going to comment very much along the lines of article--

Expert: The Kremlin is ready to start a war at any time
If the Ukrainian leadership will focus on the political games, Putin will seize the chance occurrence.

One example of this - the shelling of the Donetsk airport, which is a kind of training using new weapons.

About this  from-ua.com  says military expert at the Center for Army, Conversion and Dr. Valentin Badrak disarmament, reports "word and deed."

"Airport - a symbol of our resistance, a symbol of the ability of Ukrainian troops to confront the Russian military machine. It is already considered this issue - not as offensive separatist and terrorist groups, and opposition to the Russian military machine ", - says Badrak.

According to experts, the Ukrainian army is necessary to increase the combat potential, to achieve a real cease-fire.

"If we show that the army becomes a deterrent, if we increase the combat potential, it will inevitably lead to peace. If on the contrary - where it will be too large bias in diplomacy, political games, of course, Putin always seize the chance to advance, "- he said.

In this case Badrak convinced that the Kremlin is ready to start a war at any time, but still completed questions combat coordination and therefore conducted training with the use of new types of weapons that are abandoned there.

"Therefore, some leeway there, but this time the stock Ukrainian military-political leadership should be used to build defense forces. Intercom weapons can be used only against the background of defense capabilities. No individual diplomatic genius can not be. Here everything is clear and understandable: there is a strong army - will be Putin's readiness for a serious discussion, there will be a strong army - Putin will go on "- summed up the expert.

http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/11495-ekspert-kreml-gotov-razvyazat-voynu-v-lyuboy-moment


LT--to answer your question--no-I do not believe it will be possible. A short term frozen conflict is probably the best Putin can do now-- and hang on to Crimea-- but--if he is allowed to get away with that Russia will continue to conduct terrorism and destabilisation in Ukraine itself-there will never be acceptable lasting peace for Ukraine.Putin is intent on costing Ukraine a future-- any way he can do it.
I said it before--any compromise Ukraine makes will be a mistake--other than compromises to Ukraines short term advantage eg buying time etc .
The difficulty I see for Ukraine is that support and sympathy is worldwide now that attention is on the region--that will wane as the world sees another no-solution type conflict. Ukraine needs to capitalise on that support-- and focus on getting the aid and help it needs--needs to really finish the threat- otherwise- it will come at them repeatedly.

[papacool]

AkMike,
If you can live without wine and beef, it is easy to stay in Ukraine.
With $ or euros, your power of life is about 10 times more than in occidental country.
In my little city, you can buy a beautiful house with big ground for about 10.000$.
In west Europe this is 20 times more price.
In Vinitsa oblast, it is much less price.
Uman Park is one of the best in the world, surely, the most interesting thing I saw in all Ukraine.

[JayH]

AkMike,

In my little city, you can buy a beautiful house with big ground for about 10.000$.

papa--- AK  is very close to  you !!

[papacool]

Jay, part of my family is also close to you, from Sydney since 1890. Also in New Caledonia.

[mendeleyev]

Putin has boxed himself into a corner--very dangerous situation at this point.

I think that it foolish for the West to send in the cavalry. That could easily set off WWIII. Yes, it would turn nuclear, at least regionally.

At the same time, it would be even more foolish to play the part of Neville Chamberlain: see my detailed response to Father Time in another thread.

I think that Ukraine needs to have the resources and ability to defend herself, and that Europe should step up, big time, to help faciliate this. At this juncture, the Europeans, although they often have weak stomachs for conflict (which gets them into trouble in the first place), need to grow some balls. In the eyes of Russians, the USA is the "main enemy," and therefore the Europeans can get away with aiding Ukraine in ways that the USA cannot.

I am truly sorry that Ronald Reagan is not alive at a time like this, but glad that Angela Merkel is watching closely. She may, if she accepts the assignment, end up being the Margaret Thatcher of our time.