Ukraine is losing the war

[Doll]

Show the CNN interview not this edited op-ed piece by that RAG.

I tried- can't insert the video

[Doll]

If true that Obama brokered a deal for transition of power, the really bad part is not helping Ukraine afterwards.   If we encourage a country to take a bold step knowing it will upset the sleeping Russian bear, we are cowards as well as wrong for not giving massive aid to help Ukraine defend its borders when the enraged bear comes for revenge. 

 

How about it is none of your (USA) business at all?
Now are you going to talk about freedom and democracy in Ukraine or better- its independence? When your President made it clear that t was the US that "brokered a deal for transition of power"?
We, we, we should , we would- it is none of your business. Now what- your hands are in blood.
Now you want to supply weapon to have more blood on your hands?
God's Land of freedom and democracy.
 

[AkMike]

But "WE" didn't invade Ukraine. Russian supported invaders have. 


Russia's hands are bloody. 

[AC]

But "WE" didn't invade Ukraine. Russian supported invaders have. 

Russia's hands are bloody. 

She doesn't care Mike.  She's been grasping at straws since this whole thing began and she will continue doing so until the bitter end, which will be when Putler blows his brains out in a bunker somewhere.

[Doll]

But "WE" didn't invade Ukraine. Russian supported invaders have. 


Russia's hands are bloody. 

You started the conflict- Obama said it clearly. But for the US there will be no war.

[AkMike]

Try again Doll, He said he brokered a transition of power.


 That's not the same as starting it. The Ukrainians started it when they got tire of the rip and gouge from putin's puppet and his gang of thieves.

 Do you recall that they sucked the coffers of Ukraine dry then slit to the protection of the huilomeister? Then the huilomeister invaded when the country was weak and broke.

[Gator]

Doll, before you jump to conclusions, some clarification is needed.  None of us have all the facts.

Keep in mind that Obama is a bit of a narcissist and has a history of taking credit for a number of things.  His speech about the killing of OBL sounds like he directed everything other than pulling the trigger.   

If you feel you know now everything, then run your mouth. 

[Doll]

you wants video? Here it is
http://rt.com/op-edge/228379-obama-power-transition-ukraine/
In an interview with CNN’s Fareed Zakaria, Barack Obama acknowledged that the United States had "brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine," thus admitting to a high level of democratic impropriety.

Before we consider Obama’s revealing remarks, and how the Ukrainian people sold their country for a song, let’s rewind to November 2013, when then-President Viktor Yanukovich had shocked western capitals - and, more importantly, western markets - by suspending plans for an association agreement with the European Union.
As if on command, thousands of Ukrainians suddenly poured into the streets of Kiev to protest the decision. Such a rapid reaction should not have come as a surprise. After all, a multitude of US government agencies – most notably, USAID - had been operating in Ukraine since the collapse of the Soviet Union, investing billions on its latest "democratic" pet project.

This is no conspiracy theory. On December 13, 2013, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, following her third trip to Ukraine in five weeks, told the National Press Club: "Since Ukraine's independence in 1991 the United States has…invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in needs and other goals."

Exactly what those "other goals" may have been, and who helped underwrite them, seem rather obvious today.

Although many are tempted to believe otherwise, governments don't normally spend such prodigious sums of money in a foreign land unless it expects to get something hefty - in this case, Kiev’s loyalty - in return. Governments are by nature political opportunists, not philanthropists, which is precisely why Russia gave USAID the boot in 2012. Ukraine did not, and was forced to pay the piper, so to speak.

We should note here that it was not just US taxpayer dollars that unwittingly provided the funds to support the coup d’ etat in Ukraine. In another softball interview with CNN’s Zakaria, billionaire George Soros last May coolly admitted: “I set up a foundation in Ukraine before Ukraine became independent of Russia. And the foundation has been functioning ever since and played an important part in events now.”

Certainly those billions of dollars weren’t spent just on humanitarian work, like distributing pastries to the Ukrainian rabble gathered on Independence Square. After all, the crucial question as to who would lend Ukraine a multi-billion dollar rescue package was the elephant parked on Maidan that few talked about. Once upon a time, western financial institutions had the market cornered on the lucrative task of bailing out cash-strapped countries. Today, however, other economic agencies - BRICS for example - are able to compete with the IMF. But after Kiev exploded in chaos and violence, the regular lender of last resort bagged itself another national trophy for above its fireplace.
Michael Hudson, of Counterpunch, summed up the IMF victory: "In April 2014, fresh from riots in Maidan Square and the February 22 coup, and less than a month before the May 2 massacre in Odessa, the IMF approved a $17 billion loan program to Ukraine’s junta. Normal IMF practice is to lend only up to twice a country’s quote in one year. This was eight times as high."

Hudson said the loan, given at a time of civil war, proved that the Washington-based financial institution functions as "an arm of US Cold War politics."

"Kiev used the loan for military expenses to attack the Eastern provinces, and the loan terms imposed the usual budget austerity, as if this would stabilize the country’s finances."

[Doll]

For anybody who still believes those billions of dollars were spent just to prop up democratic institutions need only consider the harsh historical lessons from places as diverse and distant as South America and the Middle East. Time and again, from Chile to Iran, Washington propped up puppet dictatorships to serve its purpose.

Proving this charge is as simple as eavesdropping on a telephone call conversation between Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt.

Almost one year ago to the day, Nuland was heard outlining Washington’s vision of Kiev’s future "democratic" structure. Nothing terribly ironic about that, right? While much of the amused media focused its attention on Nuland’s “F*ck the EU” verbal bomb, that was mere child’s play compared to the meat of the conversation, which spelled out exactly who Washington wanted in power in Kiev.

Nuland: …I don't think Klitsch [Vitaly Klitschko, one of the opposition leaders] should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.

Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff….

Nuland: I think Yats [Arseniy Yatseniuk, current prime minister of Ukraine] is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyagnibok [Oleg Tyagnibok, the other opposition leader] on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

Or, instead of enduring the obscenities of a Nuland conversation, one could simply wait for Barack Obama to sum it all up in an interview with CNN all-star softball pitcher Fareed Zakaria.

Instead of challenging Obama on the question as to whether US-NATO policies in Eastern Europe - which, aside from moving inexorably eastward to Russia’s border, also excludes Russian participation in the US missile defense shield - have in some substantial way contributed to the deterioration of relations between Russia and the US, Zakaria merely dangles the “Russian aggressor” carrot before Obama, who of course blames the entire mess on Putin, while admitting to something incredible, yet entirely believable.

[Gator]

Doll, please don't quote long reams of propaganda.  Summarize it with your own thoughts please. 
And read what others post.  Earlier I had given a link to the CNN archived video of the interview. 

[AC]

Doll, you did not give proper citations for the long article you posted...RT aka "Russia Today" is the source.  Need we say anymore? 

[BillyB]

Doll, the video isn't revealing anything new or what you think it's saying. Obama said Yanukovych fled after they brokered a deal to transition power.


The deal was new elections to which Yanukovych agreed to. Google "phone call Biden Yanukovych". You'll find out those two talked often before Yanu fled. If Yanu felt America was trying to overthrow him, do you think he would be so friendly to us?


America did promote democracy in Ukraine by non lethal means. Russia promoted their brand of whatever plus rigged elections. The majority of Ukrainians got tired of the Russian brand.

[Boethius]

How about it is none of your (USA) business at all?
Now are you going to talk about freedom and democracy in Ukraine or better- its independence? When your President made it clear that t was the US that "brokered a deal for transition of power"?
We, we, we should , we would- it is none of your business. Now what- your hands are in blood.
Now you want to supply weapon to have more blood on your hands?
God's Land of freedom and democracy.
 

The US has never hidden that it brokered the power transition, with EU representatives as well, once it was clear Yanukovych was not going to stay in power.  That does not mean the US was behind Euromaidan, as Russian apologists, and the Russian press, claim.  They are distinct.


No blood is on US hands.  The US did not invade Ukrainian lands.  They did not send spies and agitators into Ukraine to kill people.  They are not sending arms, money, mercenaries, and troops to Ukraine. 

[fathertime]

   They did not send spies and agitators into Ukraine to kill people.  They are not sending arms, money, mercenaries, and troops to Ukraine.

Stating all these things AS FACT is not appropriate...you don't know for sure if this is all accurate...or are you saying this is all fact?  We often find out all sorts of things well after the  event ends.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

It is fact.   Where do you believe the military equipment, with Russian markings, comes from?  Who do you think is paying for that equipment, which needs trained soldiers to operate it?


I don't believe Russia is paying mercenaries, but there is undisputable proof that there are mercenaries, and Russian troops in Donbas.

[sleepycat]

.

[fathertime]

No blood is on US hands.  The US did not invade Ukrainian lands.  They did not send spies and agitators into Ukraine to kill people.  They are not sending arms, money, mercenaries, and troops to Ukraine. 

It is fact.   Where do you believe the military equipment, with Russian markings, comes from?  Who do you think is paying for that equipment, which needs trained soldiers to operate it?


I don't believe Russia is paying mercenaries, but there is undisputable proof that there are mercenaries, and Russian troops in Donbas.

The second statement is IRRELEVANT as it pertains to your first statement.  In your first statement you are stating AS FACT that the US hasn't sent:  "They did not send spies and agitators into Ukraine to kill people.  They are not sending arms, money, mercenaries, and troops to Ukraine."   


By including all of these items it is not a fact you can know for sure...I am not commenting on your second statement (regarding RUssia) at this time, but your 1st statement is NOT fact, so I have no idea why you continue to state it as if it is. 

[/size]Fathertime! [/i][/size]   [/i]

[Boethius]

There is zero evidence of the US sending anyone into Ukraine to agitate locals, or kill Ukrainian officials who tried to defend their homeland.  None.  There is plenty of evidence of Russia doing that.


There is no "win" for the US to do this.

[BillyB]

We often find out all sorts of things well after the  event ends.

Russian intelligence is smart. If America was trying to overthrow Russia's puppet president violently, they would have warned Yanukovych not to be talking to us.

Yanu stole billions from his people. Citizens had valid reasons to be pissed without America motivating them. The current rebels in Ukraine are upset their man got ousted. Guess what kind of leadership Ukraine will have if the rebels win?

[fathertime]

There is zero evidence of the US sending anyone into Ukraine to agitate locals, or kill Ukrainian officials who tried to defend their homeland.  None.  There is plenty of evidence of Russia doing that.


There is no "win" for the US to do this.

Here is what you stated earlier: They did not send spies and agitators into Ukraine to kill people.  They are not sending arms, money, mercenaries, and troops to Ukraine.

You have now covered SOME of those items in this recent post, but that does NOT account for all that you originally said....In addition to the items you did cover, if there is no evidence at this time, there could be at a later date, or perhaps it was such a slick job that there is no evidence.  Again, in your original statement you covered a lot of things and they are not fact, as you presented them.

Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Russian intelligence is smart. If America was trying to overthrow Russia's puppet president violently, they would have warned Yanukovych not to be talking to us.

 

Hey Billyb, that may well be, but my objection to Boethius statement was to state as fact all the other things she contended....there is no way she can know all of that for certain, it is opinion, which is fine, but stating it as fact is worthy of a call out. 


Fathertime! 

[bagalia]

Super huge explosion happened last night seen from outer space even. Ukraine has blown up a very large weapons depot in Donetsk.

[AkMike]

Super huge explosion happened last night seen from outer space even. Ukraine has blown up a very large weapons depot in Donetsk.

 Cool! A Big BOOM! Possibly 200 terrorists toasted! 

http://tsn.ua/ato/nadpotuzhniy-vibuh-na-skladi-boyovikiv-sprichiniv-paniku-u-donecku-socmerezhi-407988.html

[Doll]

Doll, please don't quote long reams of propaganda.  Summarize it with your own thoughts please. 
And read what others post.  Earlier I had given a link to the CNN archived video of the interview.

My quotes are not longer than Taz's or somebody else. I post the way I want.

[Doll]

I am impressed by Boe's "facts"
Три копейки в базарный день им цена.
They are Boe's opinion, nothing else.

I posted the video with Obama.
Have to go to work now, so later I will find the video that proves the US involvement BEFORE Maidan.

Now- слава независимой Украине. То есть- сала Хахаха