Ukraine is losing the war

[jone]

That is your opinion but certainly not facts even if you want to present it as such.   

The facts are that even Romney said Russia was a threat.  You can look pass that but he didn't pull that out of his ass and now everyone is saying he was right.  I also doubt Romney had special information that the current Administration wasn't privy too. 

No one said a threat has to be a direct military threat.    If you are dismayed by this conversation, I suggest not reading it or laying down in case you faint.

All personal insults, disregarded,  as of 6 years ago, when Obama was elected, the US did not see Russia as a threat.  You seem to take any slight to your personal point of view as a personal insult.

My references to the staging of Russia's antipathy towards the US accounted for Romney's statement that he saw the evolution as well of Russia's dislike of the US. 

[jone]

show me

I watched it live.  So I would not have video links to point to.  The reference that I make was to the last statements that Obama made to the Washington Post journalist.  He said that all of the European powers and the US were getting ready to issue an aid package to Ukraine.  He also said that supporting Ukraine economically was more important than any military intervention.

[Изумруд]

Most likely.
One more time- Russian passports are taken by "военкомат"

Sometimes it's just better to hear it from the horse's mouth:

[Steamer]

The people needed to make the changes themselves, and the only people energetic enough to go and do something were simply interested in enriching themselves, and everyone else sat paralyzed...

Back in '00 or '01 Zbigniew Brzezinski gave a lecture on Eastern Europe, breakaway regions and color revolutions and how the US could press its advantage. My stepson asked him 'what is the US willing to do to help these different regions against Russia?' He answered 'what are they are willing to do to help themselves?' I understood him to mean that these regions must fight their own fight but the US 'could' help. 'Would' may be a different issue.

On the other hand, it always struck me how much the West was doing for Ukraine compared to how little Russia was doing (especially in relation to Chernobyl), but yet Russia considers Ukraine to be “theirs”, so while the USA influences with money, Russia influences with military force (and manages to blame the USA for doing so!)

This is the big problem with Russia. They don't understand that attraction is better than compulsion. That if they had an economy that was worth a sh!t other countries would be coming TO them rather than run away from them. Oil and gas is good but not enough. No one wants to buy a Lada.

[jone]

Sometimes it's just better to hear it from the horse's mouth:

I take absolutely no joy in a video like that.

[Gator]

With regard to Obama's words "we brokered a deal to transition power," I believe Boethius et al have described the context exactly.

Any "brokering" done by the US was after Euromaidan protests were well underway when it became clear Yanukovych might depart, thereby necessitating new leadership, i. e., a transition  of leadership.  Europe, particularly Germany, would have a better grasp of who would be the best to take over leadership of Ukraine; however, the US needed to be involved because the US would be behind much if not most of the aid money needed by the new Ukraine.   Likewise, those competing for leadership of a new Ukraine would feel the need to receive the endorsement of the source of needed funding.   

In any event, Poroshenko was selected by the Ukrainian voters in a democratic and fair election.  Folks, that is not brokering.

What the US did is similar to a venture capitalist investing in a company undergoing reorganization after the CEO had been fired.  The venture capitalist as well as existing creditors would need to be comfortable with the proposed new management.

Another point.  I do not like Obama and find him deceitful among many other faults.  He is extremely skillful in covering up his improprieties.   So if the US and Obama did indeed act improperly during Ukraine's transition, Obama would be the last person to reveal a hint of such.  He had nothing to hide, and being the Narcissist, he took credit for the transition, to show the American people he is on top of the Ukrainian conflict.

The Russian propaganda machine is very good, even better than Obama in convincing his supporters.   

[Изумруд]

I take absolutely no joy in a video like that.

Of course you don't, no normal person would, even though there are worse out there; perhaps I should have put a warning before it.  However, I posted it because those soldiers are calling themselves Russians, and that is important.

[Boethius]

You can tell even by the Russian they speak, that they are not from Ukraine.

[LiveFromUkraine]

All personal insults, disregarded,  as of 6 years ago, when Obama was elected, the US did not see Russia as a threat.  You seem to take any slight to your personal point of view as a personal insult.

My references to the staging of Russia's antipathy towards the US accounted for Romney's statement that he saw the evolution as well of Russia's dislike of the US.

You seem to be overly emotional if you think what I said was a personal insult.  You saying you are dismayed and throwing in emotional overtures are more about you not being able to accept another point of view.


First of all, you have no idea if the US saw Russia as a threat when Obama was elected.  In any case, that point has nothing to do with the US seeing Russia as a threat now, a year ago, two years ago.

[Gator]

Of course you don't, no normal person would, even though there are worse out there; perhaps I should have put a warning before it.  However, I posted it because those soldiers are calling themselves Russians, and that is important.

I thought by jumping they declared themselves faggots.  Not jumping would have admitted to being Russia.

[LiveFromUkraine]

With regard to Obama's words "we brokered a deal to transition power," I believe Boethius et al have described the context exactly.

Any "brokering" done by the US was after Euromaidan protests were well underway when it became clear Yanukovych might depart, thereby necessitating new leadership, i. e., a transition  of leadership.  Europe, particularly Germany, would have a better grasp of who would be the best to take over leadership of Ukraine; however, the US needed to be involved because the US would be behind much if not most of the aid money needed by the new Ukraine.   Likewise, those competing for leadership of a new Ukraine would feel the need to receive the endorsement of the source of needed funding.   

Why is anyone "Brokering"?  Let the sovereign country handle their mess on their own. Nuland's phone call wasn't what I considered brokering but planning.  I don't understand how so many just let that phone call pass and then call out Doll and Belvis for what they accept as truth.


Now Ukraine is finding out all the brokering was fluff when it comes to getting the help they need.  I expect other countries to bear witness to his mess when the US/EU start trying to "broker" with them. 

What the US did is similar to a venture capitalist investing in a company undergoing reorganization after the CEO had been fired.  The venture capitalist as well as existing creditors would need to be comfortable with the proposed new management.

Those venture capitalist are profit driven.  They are not doing so for "democracy" sake.  I do like your analogy, though, and imagine it being closer to the truth than democracy reasons. 

What I don't understand is why is the IMF loaning money to countries that cannot pay it back?  Well, let's say that question is more rhetorical in nature.

[lordtiberius]

I watched it live.  So I would not have video links to point to.  The reference that I make was to the last statements that Obama made to the Washington Post journalist.  He said that all of the European powers and the US were getting ready to issue an aid package to Ukraine.  He also said that supporting Ukraine economically was more important than any military intervention.

That's fine.   The equivocations of these "leaders" is annoying.  If you were Putin, would you respect us?

[AC]

It becomes clearer and clearer to me that we (The U.S.) had WAYYYYYY too much involvement in Ukraine.  This is Russia's neighbor and (as evidenced on this tape) KNEW that this was going to stir up a hornets nest, yet we did meddle.  We have had some knuckleheads find themselves on tape (Nuland) but it is very likely that many other conversations took place that weren't caught on tape.  It is also arrogant to say 'Fvuk the E.U., as if it is ONLY our decision, half a world away. 

So both Nuland and Putin say F*&^ the EU.  Big deal.  Putin also frequently more or less says F*&^ Obama.  There is absolutely no special significance to any of these F*&^ the whoevers.  None whatsoever. 

[fathertime]

With regard to Obama's words "we brokered a deal to transition power," I believe Boethius et al have described the context exactly.

Any "brokering" done by the US was after Euromaidan protests were well underway when it became clear Yanukovych might depart, thereby necessitating new leadership, i. e., a transition  of leadership.  Europe, particularly Germany, would have a better grasp of who would be the best to take over leadership of Ukraine; however, the US needed to be involved because the US would be behind much if not most of the aid money needed by the new Ukraine.   Likewise, those competing for leadership of a new Ukraine would feel the need to receive the endorsement of the source of needed funding.   

 

Another point.  I do not like Obama and find him deceitful among many other faults.  He is extremely skillful in covering up his improprieties.   So if the US and Obama did indeed act improperly during Ukraine's transition, Obama would be the last person to reveal a hint of such.  He had nothing to hide, and being the Narcissist, he took credit for the transition, to show the American people he is on top of the Ukrainian conflict.

What a bunch of gobbledygook and circular self-serving logic  [size=78%]...So now Obama is a narcissist and Putin has a version of autism. [/size]


Fathertime!

[Gator]

So now Obama is a narcissist and Putin has a version of autism. 

Yes to the former.  Doubtful to the latter

[AC]

Why is anyone "Brokering"?  Let the sovereign country handle their mess on their own. Nuland's phone call wasn't what I considered brokering but planning.  I don't understand how so many just let that phone call pass and then call out Doll and Belvis for what they accept as truth.

Now Ukraine is finding out all the brokering was fluff when it comes to getting the help they need.  I expect other countries to bear witness to his mess when the US/EU start trying to "broker" with them. 

Gee Einstein, because we don't have a tape of some private conversations between Lavrov and Putin or whoever, we're supposed to consider the Russians as just innocent bystanders in this whole Maidan affair, nothing but innocent little angels?  If there was a tape no doubt Doll and Belvis and fathertime and you would claim that the tape is fake.

Ultimately Maidan was about Ukraine wanting to be closer to the EU and further away from Russia.  Ultimately Ukraine had a right to hope for help from the USA since we were a signatory to the Budapest memorandum.  Ultimately Ukrainians have chosen the West as evidenced by Porochenko going to the US Congress and pleading for help.

Mental midgets like you and the usual collection of conspiracy whack-jobs are more than welcome to read more into the conversation than what's there.  Only a fool would claim that Ukraine was improperly influenced by the USA when it's Ukraine who doesn't want to be a slave to the Russians.  Just think Holodomor, forced Russification, etc. and it's easy to see why Ukrainians have made the choice they have made. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Gee Einstein, because we don't have a tape of some private conversations between Lavrov and Putin or whoever, we're supposed to consider the Russians as just innocent bystanders in this whole Maidan affair, nothing but innocent little angels?  If there was a tape no doubt Doll and Belvis and fathertime and you would claim that the tape is fake.

Ultimately Maidan was about Ukraine wanting to be closer to the EU and further away from Russia.  Ultimately Ukraine had a right to hope for help from the USA since we were a signatory to the Budapest memorandum.  Ultimately Ukrainians have chosen the West as evidenced by Porochenko going to the US Congress and pleading for help.

Mental midgets like you are the usual collection of conspiracy whack-jobs are more than welcome to read more into the conversation than what's there.  Only a fool would claim that Ukraine was improperly influenced by the USA when it's Ukraine who doesn't want to be a slave to the Russians.  Just think Holodomor, forced Russification, etc. and it's easy to see why Ukrainians have made the choice they have made.

Ah, AC, the guy that tries to get other men to fight his battles.  I love cowards like you who try to talk tough. 


In any case, we have a phone conversation with Nuland. Talking about Lavrov is deflection.   I understand how bad you want to avoid actual evidence so you can continue your hate campaign on all Russians.   


haha  "Improperly influenced"...  How funny!  Now they are a slave to the IMF/US/EU.

[fathertime]

Gee Einstein, because we don't have a tape of some private conversations between Lavrov and Putin or whoever, we're supposed to consider the Russians as just innocent bystanders in this whole Maidan affair, nothing but innocent little angels?  If there was a tape no doubt Doll and Belvis and fathertime and you would claim that the tape is fake.
 

I don't think LFU ever said/implied Russia was 'an angel'....it is silly to say he has.


Fathertime!

[Boethius]

Ultimately Maidan was about Ukraine wanting to be closer to the EU and further
away from Russia.

Closer ties to the EU did, and does not, necessarily mean distance from Russia.  That is why all of this is so silly and false.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I don't think LFU ever said/implied Russia was 'an angel'....it is silly to say he has.


Fathertime!

You're wasting your time with these pinheads.  If you don't talk about how bad Russia is in every post you are a Russian apologist or Pro-Russian.  That is how seriously dysfunctional some of these guys.

[AC]

On the other hand, it always struck me how much the West was doing for Ukraine compared to how little Russia was doing (especially in relation to Chernobyl), but yet Russia considers Ukraine to be “theirs”, so while the USA influences with money, Russia influences with military force (and manages to blame the USA for doing so!)

Bingo!  The mentally challenged pro-Putin bunch can whine all they want to about undue US influence.  Your post and hundreds of thousands of other similar situations clearly show why the World thinks of the USA as the good guys and why nations like Ukraine and other former Soviet Bloc nations think of Russia as the bad guys.  Lose the 19th Century mentality that you own Ukraine and come into the 21st Century, nationalistic Russian bullies. 

[AkMike]

If you don't talk about how bad Russia is in every post you are a Russian apologist or Pro-Russian. 

 That's not even close to truthful LFU!



 (every other post will be just fine) 

[fathertime]

You're wasting your time with these pinheads.  If you don't talk about how bad Russia is in every post you are a Russian apologist or Pro-Russian.  That is how seriously dysfunctional some of these guys.

Yes I've noticed that!   I'm pretty sure this will get solved in a reasonably reasonable way, which will make the strident Russia haters (in every post) very angry...which is fine as not everybody can be satisfied.


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

I doubt it.  Novorossiya is not Putin's end game, and never was.

[LiveFromUkraine]

That's not even close to truthful LFU!



 (every other post will be just fine) 

ha Duly noted.