So does anyone here ever go to Ukraine or Russia to date anymore?

[Jumper]

Being an armchair critic is easy. The situation can be a bit more complex in real life.

Absolutely it is more complex on the ground, and sure its easy to armchair quarterback,!
but its all we can do? heh


I do wish you good luck!

I will say if i was advising someone of a path to take,
I would tell them to avoid Kiev, unless they had a solid contact with good communication well ahead of time.
Going to Kiev and trying to set up dates while there through free sites or agencies would be not recommended at all.I wouldn't have recommended it in 2001 either. *shrugs*

[Faux Pas]

northkape,

I think it's up to the readers to distinguish which statements are facts and which are opinions. If facts give a negative attitude then so be it. Sugar coating does not change the situation, but you and everyone else has the right to feel in any way you deemed most appropriate.

Nah, facts are facts and they do not change no matter who is reading them. Facts do at times become outdated in this instance but they don't change according to who's reading. That said; your truth might be different from the next Ukrainian visitors truth. There's a lot of variables that determine that truth.

[Jumper]

Nah, facts are facts and they do not change no matter who is reading them. Facts do at times become outdated in this instance but they don't change according to who's reading. That said; your truth might be different from the next Ukrainian visitors truth. There's a lot of variables that determine that truth.

Indeed a lot of variables.
I did not notice any real difference in the pursuit from decade ago to more recently. The differences were in the ability to easily communicate. The MOB agencies were always grey area, and mostly sham.

Now , with conflict in the region, things may have changed dramatically.
I do find it hard to believe it would make women less interested in relocation though,however  good or bad that that might bode for a man looking.

[Gator]

Another thing is we had not been too passionate. It did not go further than crossing hands and kisses on her cheeks. From conversation, I sense that she is holding out because she is still afraid I might be seeing other girls, though I told her today I want to date her exclusively and mention that I will be back to see her again in a few months time. I told her I want to visit her only.

It seems you have exceeded the three date rule with nothing but a kiss on the cheek.  This woman seems to have passed your detailed scrutiny, yet do you want someone with so little fire in them? 

You say she is not passionate, yet I sense you are not passionate either, always studying her, going through your mental checklist.  Is your apparent lack of passion restraining her inner passion?  She likes you because you are different, so maybe your apparent lack of passion appeals to her.  I am reading between the lines so I could easily be wrong.

Maybe her behavior does reflect serial dating concerns, etc.   If this woman is the type of woman you want to pursue, I suggest your next trip be a holiday in  the DR, Thailand, etc.   For sure you will not be dating other women on such a holiday, nor have a Plan "B".  You will be living in close quarters and will get to know much about each other.

Such a trip requires planning together and that alone is revealing. 

I have one question about your detailed checklist for sincerity.  Whatever happened to using your feelings?  Not feelings such as intuition, but feelings whether you are having fun with her and she makes your heart race a little.




 

[mroz87]

While I think dating several is fine, if you are up front about it,
what men here  think or feel doesn't matter, its how the women feel
 that effects your dating experiences.

 You dated others, made time for her when you decided to,and she has complied.
 That's fine of course, but I do think this colors your initial meetings and may cause her reservations about a relationship.


Trust me I've heard every side of WMVM /WOVO ,done both myself, but again it doesn't matter what I or I -net pundits think or feel, it matter what the one woman you are dating feels about it.
Some are fine with it, others not.
This woman already stated she really wasn't, and in my opinion hit you up for a dress because why not? You are just another foreigner serial dating in her city, a city where most any foreign guy staying is going to be considered sex tourist, until he proves without a doubt, by actions, otherwise.
So her guard is up.Most every UW's is.
 I don't say it justifies her actions, but I am fairly certain your actions while their (innocent or not)  colors her responses.

My wife was 28,and I met her in 2010 dating through 2011.
Plenty of her friends are still there,  single, sincere, and looking.
Granted its a provincial city, and not Kiev, which seemed generally jaded to foreign men wife hunting , even back in 2001.


I'd say Kiev has been a difficult place to do anything more than date in a long time,and doubt its gotten any better, really why should it?

I'd think any city with a large MOB or affiliate agency presence is gong to be a tough go with a visit many style.

 

Hi Jumper. I think you provided the most accurate picture of my situation. Being up front about dating several ladies gives the man a self-illusioned of 'fine' because of the intrinsic honesty that goes by it, but I doubt most ladies accept this in a true and honest way. If I am a woman, I would withold intimacy too, because who knows whether I am No. 1, 2 or 3. What if she gave intimacy and later found out she is just No. 4? On the last day she met me, she still asked whether the other lady contacted me. This shows she ain't so sure. I think you are spot on with your explanation. She probably thought I was not serious, so why not clean him out anyway.

This goes very against the WMVM method. Another problem with VM, is that all ladies will want to spend time on the sweet spot (eg. first day of your arrival). Who would you pick if they all seem real? This again is a gamble. It goes downhill real quick for the other ladies whom were not picked. Doesn't matter where she is at the ranks, she knows she is not No. 1. How do you manage that? Also ladies tend to call any time and say she is in down town and want to meet in 30 minutes, but then you are with another lady. Any ideas how to deal with this too? She knows your only business there is dating, so any other excuses will put the man into an even higher level of scrutiny.

WOVO - pro-dater, flakey woman = fail
WMVM - somehow women thinks the man as not serious = still fail

Looks like there is no good way to do it, except if I go to a place where WOVO is not tarnished by a cottage industry of pro-daters and women spoiled for choices.

Edited:
Jumper, why are the lady friends of your wife still 'single, sincere and looking'? What went wrong?
Also, which provincial city are you referring to? There are a few 'provincial cities' that are loaded with pro-daters too.

[mroz87]

Gator. There are only two possible explanations: either she is a pro-dater, or she witholds because she has to be sure she is the only one I am communicating. She says she will need time to light up that fire. Granted I only met her less than one week and had no previous communications. That seems logical to me, and consistent with personal observations of couple dynamics. Nevertheless I told her I can only visit her for so many days in a year, and I do not have unlimited face time with her. She got the hint.

She also talked about visiting me in my own country, but obviously I will have to foot the bill. It would be interesting if this ever goes to planning stage, and if she is willing to pay for a small part. Anyway, let's see if she is keen on keeping communications after I leave Kiev.

[Gator]

She also talked about visiting me in my own country, but obviously I will have to foot the bill.

Yes, you must pay unless she makes a lot of money (as much as you do).

It would be interesting if this ever goes to planning stage, and if she is willing to pay for a small part.

She will balk if you demand such.  The most you can expect is for her to obtain the tourist visa.  Even if you pay for the visa, she needs to apply for it independently of you, even finding a non-male contact who is inviting her.  I am not sure how this works today, especially for a UW. 

BTW, do you have within you enough trust to buy a ticket, i. e.,  trusting a woman to show up?

Anyway, let's see if she is keen on keeping communications after I leave Kiev.

The safe bet, yet leaving the door open for her or you to take anything better that comes along. 

This sounds like you need to pursue other women until you find someone special enough to command your attention.  It seems you think of this current woman as not much above ordinary.   

[BillyB]

She says she will need time to light up that fire.

If a RW likes you, you will know it. You don't know it so it's time to move on. You can keep communications open with the lady but chances are things will die out. Be aware she may keep you on the hook as a backup plan if it doesn't pan out with her favorite man.

WMVM - somehow women thinks the man as not serious = still fail

Women are usually attracted to men who other women want. I've been asked by women on dates if I'm seeing other women. I don't get nervous and defensive. I tell them the truth that I haven't made a commitment with anybody and we should continue to date to learn if we're compatible. Most ladies accept.


Mroz87, I went back to read the beginning of this thread and seen that you called Ukraine a wasteland full of prostitutes and pro daters. You recommended to men to save their money and not go there. I said you're looking for love in all the wrong places. Gator said I haven't been there in years and maybe things have changed. I don't believe good girls of Ukraine all of a sudden turn evil in a matter of years. Your analysis of the available women in Ukraine is based on bad experiences. You now have a jaded view of the women living in Ukraine. Not a healthy attitude to take on a date. I say you are looking for love in all the wrong places. You and I traveled to the same place yet took different paths. I've never used agencies and quickly discarded insincere women so that I can spend more time with sincere women. You were ready to make a serious commitment a few days ago and today you still aren't sure if lady you want to commit to is a pro dater or not. There are women out there that are sincere, have good manners, very family oriented and will give you no doubts. Keep searching for one I described and good luck.

[Patagonie]

Hi Jumper. I think you provided the most accurate picture of my situation. Being up front about dating several ladies gives the man a self-illusioned of 'fine' because of the intrinsic honesty that goes by it, but I doubt most ladies accept this in a true and honest way. If I am a woman, I would withold intimacy too, because who knows whether I am No. 1, 2 or 3. What if she gave intimacy and later found out she is just No. 4? On the last day she met me, she still asked whether the other lady contacted me. This shows she ain't so sure. I think you are spot on with your explanation. She probably thought I was not serious, so why not clean him out anyway.

This goes very against the WMVM method. Another problem with VM, is that all ladies will want to spend time on the sweet spot (eg. first day of your arrival). Who would you pick if they all seem real? This again is a gamble. It goes downhill real quick for the other ladies whom were not picked. Doesn't matter where she is at the ranks, she knows she is not No. 1. How do you manage that? Also ladies tend to call any time and say she is in down town and want to meet in 30 minutes, but then you are with another lady. Any ideas how to deal with this too? She knows your only business there is dating, so any other excuses will put the man into an even higher level of scrutiny.

WOVO - pro-dater, flakey woman = fail
WMVM - somehow women thinks the man as not serious = still fail

Looks like there is no good way to do it, except if I go to a place where WOVO is not tarnished by a cottage industry of pro-daters and women spoiled for choices.

Edited:
Jumper, why are the lady friends of your wife still 'single, sincere and looking'? What went wrong?
Also, which provincial city are you referring to? There are a few 'provincial cities' that are loaded with pro-daters too.

The good speed in a WMVM is to not too much write to a lady which let you a lot of possibilities.
THe travel is your, it is not her personal story: it is your, which means that you don't have to tell her exactly when you will arrive, just when you will see her.
ALso using an agency gives you a lot of flexibility.
The secret is to use a go between. If it is not an agency it could be a terp.

Go between, no more than 3 ou 4 letters exchanged both ways, and it guarantees you that a lot of time things will go smoothly. However you will always find some ladies who will walk away as soon as they know they are not THE TOP and ONLY NUMBER ONE. Those ones shows a stifness and no real empathy, so you you can let them go.

As Billy said, in 90/95% of time all will be fine, they adore the men who are pursued. Anyway the chances in Ukraine are with you, and don't forget one thing : you go, you pay, you do what you want, and you don't let the control of your time and your schedule to anyone. Women would like to govern the dating time to their profit but it is still men go down the mine when it is time to meet. ANd this rule applies more in the east than in the west.

[Larry1]

Looks like there is no good way to do it, except if I go to a place where WOVO is not tarnished by a cottage industry of pro-daters and women spoiled for choices.

I'd say Kiev has been a difficult place to do anything more than date in a long time,and doubt its gotten any better, really why should it?

As a guy who spoke to lots of girls in Kiev and dated several when I was there after a failed WOVO trip, I agree with Jumper that Kiev is not a place I would recommend to search.  I wouldn't recommend Odessa either.  Undoubtedly there are lots of great girls in both cities but I think your chances are better elsewhere.

[calmissile]

As a guy who spoke to lots of girls in Kiev and dated several when I was there after a failed WOVO trip, I agree with Jumper that Kiev is not a place I would recommend to search.  I wouldn't recommend Odessa either.  Undoubtedly there are lots of great girls in both cities but I think your chances are better elsewhere.

I have to disagree with both of you.  Just because Kiev and Odessa has a reputation for the agency gals and scammers, they are still a good source of tens of thousands of single good women.  I became more aware of this after my extended stays in Ukraine, meeting many women that are not on dating sites.  Also, after meeting Larissa I have met many of her girlfriends and relatives that are not on dating sites that might be interested in finding a foreign husband.

As far as meeting women that are not on dating sites, I have recommended several times to make the trip, meet some locals and network with them to meet single women.  Men searching should also learn the differences between 'city girls' and 'village girls' and examine the compatibility of the lifestyles, etc.

[Larry1]

I have to disagree with both of you.  Just because Kiev and Odessa has a reputation for the agency gals and scammers, they are still a good source of tens of thousands of single good women.  I became more aware of this after my extended stays in Ukraine, meeting many women that are not on dating sites.  Also, after meeting Larissa I have met many of her girlfriends and relatives that are not on dating sites that might be interested in finding a foreign husband.

As far as meeting women that are not on dating sites, I have recommended several times to make the trip, meet some locals and network with them to meet single women.  Men searching should also learn the differences between 'city girls' and 'village girls' and examine the compatibility of the lifestyles, etc.

I don't disagree that there are thousands of great girls in both cities. The problem is meeting them.

It would require a very substantial amount of time in-country to meet many girls who aren't on the dating sites. Few guys are able to spend nearly that much time there. If you can make 30-40 trips, like AvHdB, this approach works. If you can move there, as Christianv did, then it wouldn't be too hard to succeed.

[mroz87]

BTW, do you have within you enough trust to buy a ticket, i. e.,  trusting a woman to show up?

I think you, myself and everyone will agree this is just common sense. Like Billy said she will show it if she is interested. And I had local ladies showed it to me in the past, so it is not like I am totally clueless about dating. When the evidence of strong interest is there, then I have no problem paying, otherwise there is a possibility of a 'hit and run'. I am back now, so far I have not heard from her. I will give her some time and if still no reply then I am pursuing other women. If she does reply and does it consistently, then the best course of action is a second visit to her country, a WOVO trip and let see how that will go. If she still fails to show it, then I am still on the ground and there are chances of meeting other women. In a neutral location like Thailand or Turkey, if it fails then I am stuck there with no mood of seeing that place.

Good thing is I am doing this young, so I have plenty of time. I also have a local contact, who had previously provided me some organic introductions, some are actually his relatives and first degree friends. These women are solid but most are in their mid 30s and some divorced with kids.

Women are usually attracted to men who other women want. I've been asked by women on dates if I'm seeing other women. I don't get nervous and defensive. I tell them the truth that I haven't made a commitment with anybody and we should continue to date to learn if we're compatible. Most ladies accept.

Mroz87, I went back to read the beginning of this thread and seen that you called Ukraine a wasteland full of prostitutes and pro daters. You recommended to men to save their money and not go there. I said you're looking for love in all the wrong places. Gator said I haven't been there in years and maybe things have changed. I don't believe good girls of Ukraine all of a sudden turn evil in a matter of years. Your analysis of the available women in Ukraine is based on bad experiences. You now have a jaded view of the women living in Ukraine. Not a healthy attitude to take on a date. I say you are looking for love in all the wrong places. You and I traveled to the same place yet took different paths. I've never used agencies and quickly discarded insincere women so that I can spend more time with sincere women. You were ready to make a serious commitment a few days ago and today you still aren't sure if lady you want to commit to is a pro dater or not. There are women out there that are sincere, have good manners, very family oriented and will give you no doubts. Keep searching for one I described and good luck.

Billy, you have been reading too much into the semantics. I said Ukraine is a wasteland because almost all foreigners' kind of activities appeared to have disappeared. That includes the prostitutes, local hustlers, and I didn't see those combos shown by the photos Robocop attached. It's 99% gone now. Whether there are a lot of pro daters, it depends on perspective. Let say there are 10,000 marriageable age ladies in Kiev, but only 100 ladies are pro daters. That is merely 1%. But if I go to a free personals site or agency or simply just showing up in a venue supposedly frequented by foreigners, then all 100 of them shows up there. See the perspective difference? 9,900 good women are sitting at home watching TV, and this is the problem: they don't go hard enough looking for men.

I have not gone all in with this one woman. Some of my older posts are narrative of what happened, what I said to her, what she said to me. In reality both her and myself could feel something else or have plan B, C and D. If she is not a pro-dater, then it is a case of both of us treading the water carefully. I am sure if she is real and serious, then she should have no problem communicating with me consistently once I am back. The next few months are the time she won't be getting nice dinners and freebies. Let see if she still look for me just like she did when I was in Kiev.

I have to say this, Billy. Women in the 30s, and especially with children, are almost completely casted out of the locally acceptable dating pool. No disrespect intended, but this is fact. This explains why certain members of this community has some really serious women who cooked them nice dinners and pretty much show that interest. I am pretty sure many of you have seen this tour documentary on youtube. This one lady in the video, about early 30s, still very beautiful, but has a kid, practically cried at some point in the video because no one wanted her. When I was in a provincial town with my local contact, and words broken out at the local government company that I have come looking for partner, immediately 6 women lined up wanted to meet me for dinner that same night. Once again it is mismatch, as I want ladies who are below 30, never married and have no children.

[mroz87]

Go between, no more than 3 ou 4 letters exchanged both ways, and it guarantees you that a lot of time things will go smoothly. However you will always find some ladies who will walk away as soon as they know they are not THE TOP and ONLY NUMBER ONE. Those ones shows a stifness and no real empathy, so you you can let them go.

This doesn't work with the range of ladies I am pursuing. These ladies have many choices when they have their profiles online. The many choices are mostly illusion, because most are either not real or will never visit, but the ladies still do not realize it yet. Just like some 50 year old foreigner fantasizes on that 20 year old lady, there are also ladies in the 20s fantasizing hot men in similar socially acceptable age range. Most hot men don't need to come, and if they do, they come just for sex. Simple logic really, but fantasies are more fun I guess.

I have exchanged letters with ladies, and that were more than 3 or 4 letters, all with real discussions not fluff romantic talk. I did not end up meeting them. Instead, I met one with just one letter with a single sentence in it containing her mobile number.

[RoboCop]

Hey MrOz,

My apologies for the late reply. I really am dumbfounded as to what advice I can give you, given the predicament you are in is something quite foreign to me. I am trying to put myself in your shoes, and I can't think of something viable. Like I said previously, fortunately my process of meeting Tamila was much more straight forward and simple.

I do agree with you that a couple of the posters are reading into things way too much, and are projecting their own biases and prejudices onto your situation. I'm also glad you've stayed on the forums, and haven't let the negativity deter you.

Now this being near the end of your trip, you should allow yourself some time to re-group and assess things from a more impartial stance.

I really think you should avoid cities like Kiev and Odessa, and maybe even Ukraine in general. Big companies like Anastasia-Date and A Foreign Affair have massive wife hunting tours there all the time, so the women there have probably become opportunistic scammers as a result of a bus load of guys coming into the city constantly.

If I was you, I'd join a website like EM, establish contact with a few viable women, and go visit them, regardless of whether they are in Kazan, Tashkent, Vladivostok, Samara etc. I'm inclined to think one of the reasons why I didn't have to make multiple trips or spend years searching for someone, was because I inadvertently took the road less traveled. If I felt there was the potential for a connection with one of the girls, I'd go see them. They could have been in some obscure village in the middle of Siberia, and I would have gone to see them. I also think the girls appreciate the effort you're making more, as they know it's out of the way, and there isn't a plane full of foreign men coming into their city all the time, so there won't be this sense of complacency.

One thing you might have to ask yourself, is where you stand on the attractiveness spectrum, and if you're going for girls "out of your league?" I don't mean to come off as an a$$hole, but I'm surprised how often such simple questions are begged.

Yes, I think that given you are quite young compared to most of the men who go on this endeavor, you have a lot of time on your hand. I am wondering what was it that made you decide to pursue FSU women? It is a bit of an anomaly from what I can gather reading the forums. What made me decide to pursue FSU women was coincidentally a trip I made to Baku, Azerbaijan, back in 2007, to support a friend of mine that qualified for the FILA 2007 wrestling world championships. We both wrestled for Oregon State Beavers, and him qualifying was the excuse I needed to travel to some obscure country. I ended up having a fling with a local Russian girl there, (I'm no Don Juan or Brad Pitt) and I suppose the FSU just made a lasting impression on me since then.

I do agree with you that if you're an attractive guy with a lot of dating options back home, you wouldn't be as inclined to hop on a plane and travel half way across the world to meet a potential spouse. That's a hard pill to swallow for many of the guys pursuing FSU women. I don't know why you brought that up exactly though? I mean, the good-looking young girls might be idealistic, but the reality of the situation will bring them back down-to-earth. They'd realise these hot young guys they want are not the ones hoping on the plane and coming over.

I wish you the best of luck Mroz, I'm gunning for you. Despite what others have said, I think it shows you are a genuine in your intentions to meet someone, given the fact you have made the effort to go to Ukraine and spend all that time there.

You're welcome to PM me if you want.

[AC]

I really think you should avoid cities like Kiev and Odessa, and maybe even Ukraine in general. Big companies like Anastasia-Date and A Foreign Affair have massive wife hunting tours there all the time, so the women there have probably become opportunistic scammers as a result of a bus load of guys coming into the city constantly.

 

[Patagonie]

This doesn't work with the range of ladies I am pursuing. These ladies have many choices when they have their profiles online. The many choices are mostly illusion, because most are either not real or will never visit, but the ladies still do not realize it yet. Just like some 50 year old foreigner fantasizes on that 20 year old lady, there are also ladies in the 20s fantasizing hot men in similar socially acceptable age range. Most hot men don't need to come, and if they do, they come just for sex. Simple logic really, but fantasies are more fun I guess.

I have exchanged letters with ladies, and that were more than 3 or 4 letters, all with real discussions not fluff romantic talk. I did not end up meeting them. Instead, I met one with just one letter with a single sentence in it containing her mobile number.

Thank you to have answered.
There are some good in what you wrote, especially about fantasy among young FSU ladies. However, if you are a nice enough looking guy and you are in the city or REALLY coming in the city (i mean that you have your ticket and it is just a question of days), women who like your profile will do some effort to meet you. Men in Ukraine have an outstanding advantage that puts them far ahead from the crowd.
I think that you could perhaps adopt a more positive vision of the dating scene, would you ?
Don't throw the water with the baby now and keep your energy on this quest. You just need to take your time and devote it 3 or 4 years. That is not insane

[AC]

Thank you to have answered.
There are some good in what you wrote, especially about fantasy among young FSU ladies. However, if you are a nice enough looking guy and you are in the city or REALLY coming in the city (i mean that you have your ticket and it is just a question of days), women who like your profile will do some effort to meet you. Men in Ukraine have an outstanding advantage that puts them far ahead from the crowd.
I think that you could perhaps adopt a more positive vision of the dating scene, would you ?
Don't throw the water with the baby now and keep your energy on this quest. You just need to take your time and devote it 3 or 4 years. That is not insane

Very good post, I also noticed he seemed negative.  However don't you agree he could choose a better city?  I think what Robocop wrote about being willing to visit a lady in a small village in Siberia is important!

[BillyB]

I am back now, so far I have not heard from her.

Even if she doesn't think of you as her future lover, she should be replying back as a friend and thanking you for all you did. That's what a person with good manners do.

I will give her some time and if still no reply then I am pursuing other women.

I would have already started. You are not cheating because you are not in a relationship with her. You are looking for evidence that she cares about you, maybe even evidence that she loves you. You have evidence she hasn't checked on you to make sure you had a safe flight home. That speaks volumes.


mroz87, find the right woman and this chapter of your life will easily be forgotten and all the trips to Ukraine will have been worth reaching that moment.

I really think you should avoid cities like Kiev and Odessa, and maybe even Ukraine in general. Big companies like Anastasia-Date and A Foreign Affair have massive wife hunting tours there all the time, so the women there have probably become opportunistic scammers as a result of a bus load of guys coming into the city constantly.

The key is not avoiding big cities. The key is avoiding those big agencies. Not all foreigners and most Ukrainian men have not had the bad dating experience in big cities as you and mroz87 encountered. Pro daters are rare and if the majority of women a guy is dating are pro daters, he's looking for love in all the wrong places.

[RoboCop]

The key is not avoiding big cities. The key is avoiding those big agencies. Not all foreigners and most Ukrainian men have not had the bad dating experience in big cities as you and mroz87 encountered. Pro daters are rare and if the majority of women a guy is dating are pro daters, he's looking for love in all the wrong places.

You've mis-read my post. I've had no bad dating experiences in Ukraine, nor did I have the dis-pleasure of meeting a dating scammer there. I was basing my recommendation on MyOz's experience and observation.

But yes, if one is only meeting scammers, it makes you think the guy is looking in all the wrong places, or the women doesn't find the guy attractive and is pro-dating him to get a free meal from an expensive restaurant.

[mroz87]

Thank you to have answered.
There are some good in what you wrote, especially about fantasy among young FSU ladies. However, if you are a nice enough looking guy and you are in the city or REALLY coming in the city (i mean that you have your ticket and it is just a question of days), women who like your profile will do some effort to meet you. Men in Ukraine have an outstanding advantage that puts them far ahead from the crowd.
I think that you could perhaps adopt a more positive vision of the dating scene, would you ?
Don't throw the water with the baby now and keep your energy on this quest. You just need to take your time and devote it 3 or 4 years. That is not insane

I have not given up yet. It actually makes me want to do my search even more seriously. It is like that movie Edge of Tomorrow. In the beginning I keep 'dying', then I wake up again and again. Every next time I keep getting better. Also the reason why I choose to do this younger than most, so I know when I finally succeed, I will still be at the right age for starting a family. It is not all hopeless. I met one real lady through organic introduction. Our outlook in life differs, which is why I did not pick her, though I still remain friend with her. Yes, there's communication after I am back home, unlike the lady at the center stage of this thread which now undoubtedly proven to be a casual pro-dater.

As I am writing, I have another lady from a smaller city in Ukraine (a solid 9) writing me. Of course I don't hold high hopes, since many Ukrainian ladies online are flakey anyway. My best bet is still organic introduction. I am hoping my local contact will come out with some new intros for me one of these days.

Very good post, I also noticed he seemed negative.  However don't you agree he could choose a better city?  I think what Robocop wrote about being willing to visit a lady in a small village in Siberia is important!

Your status says 'still looking'. How are you approaching this, or have things got all quiet for you already? Let's share your experience.

[LAman]

Yes. Myself. And probably for the final time. I am writing from my apartment in Kiev.

Ukraine is a wasteland now. I see very few foreigners. I do not see the combo involving foreign men and local ladies. This combo always stand out due to age gap or dress code difference, or I can tell with the translator hanging around. Most English speaking locals, which are not a lot to begin with, appeared to have left, probably because they have a better chance of leaving. Arena city is pretty much an abandoned place, and Mandarin plaza has more security guards than visitors. It has been this way after Yanukovych and his gang fled. Even the local hustlers and hookers are almost gone.

I met from scammers to pro-daters one after another. When one local girl registers in a personals site, she has more than 500 views in a few hours time. I have communication with some, and have potential date that turns out to be flake. As I am standing now, I am 'supposed' to have two dates soon. Supposedly I guess.

Gentlemen, save your money and enjoy it in other places.

You won't see many foreigners in winter plus with all the 'winterware' it is not real obvious.
I read much of what you wrote and you sound jaded. I wonder if it comes across when you meet women.
If it doesn't work out as you hope a girl is a pro dater, scammer, ect. It is only a meeting to see if there is interest/chemistry...... just relax have fun , be interesting and not worry about earmarking women. If you are not comfortable move on to next one, if you run out of girls  see the city, try different restaurants, see some tourist sites. Going in winter limits what you can do...it is freeking freezing outside!!
About this last girl you saw.....she is just into it because it is something for her to do, never sounded like she had any interest in you, only for spending time, you should have treated it this way. It certainly seemed you were a tad desperate not wanting to be alone. Too bad I didn't come here sooner, we could have had a drink and spoke. I certainly have not been alone in any cities for several years now, always with friends close by. Out of curiousity, what did the girl from ~45 minutes away ask for taxi fare?

[Jumper]

Jumper, why are the lady friends of your wife still 'single, sincere and looking'? What went wrong?

They are individuals, so each would have their own unique story?
*shrugs*


 There is a lot of MOB influence in most any city in Ukraine, as far as agencies,and has been for a long long time..anyone you are considering dating has known of it their entire adult life.It is mote pronounced where foreigners more easily travel.

My general advice is to establish communication first before visiting.
 The advise I gave in this thread was based on my feelings given your situation at the time , which i wouldn't advise to be in.
  I do think Kiev or Odessa have many nice women, if you sort someone, or someones,  out ahead of time.
 Yet being in those cities and just meeting women  -is a hail mary and not advisable. And yes particularly in those cities as despite MOB influence being everywhere in Ukraine, , those two cities have seen the most traffic of foreigners for almost 2 decades now.
 This isn't just about how that might influence the small percent of the female population that might try and take advantage of the scenario?
Its far more about how it effects the  views of the regular single women there about foreigners.
  Sorry , fair or not, (life isn't fair) you are NOT given the benefit of the doubt as a sincere man.
 You are first and foremost judged by all the foreign men  and their mentalities and actions proceeding you.A great deal wern't sincere, and regardless many that where, the concern of a local single women there is based on her and her friends perceptions!
Whether those perceptions are accurate doesn't matter !
How they see things is what you will have to deal with.
Or bypass all the women that share the common view!
 Yes i think its a bit more ingrained in areas that have seen more reasons to be jaded .
Again it has nothing to do with pro daters etc, as they are easy to avoid. It has to do with what a single young FSU women and her fiends think of a random single foreigner in her city, there simply for serial dating.That is their impression, and it isnt a good one!
So yo have to over come that.To deny its a challenge (however big or small) doesn't allow you to prepare for it.

We can gnash our teeth, scream to the sky that the women  are certainly dating regularly in their culture as well., so its not fair...That dammit!  we are driving the marshrutka, so they must take the route we want.. etc etc etc,.
  Or you can face the reality of her ,and her friends and family who influence her, perceptions !and work within those constraints, which is to prove to her you are serious before expecting really anything other than them being polite and mildly curious.
 Now ,if you can convince her you are really serious,  while fitting her into your dating schedule, while she makes sure she is on time for you  each call you make, good deal!
but lets not pretend it doesn't color the initial impression of you and your intent.It does, certainly you may overcome it, but it is a hurdle.It was a hurdle before you ever showed up.

Culturally words mean very little there, actions are all that are respected.
Your actions need to coincide with your words , 100% of the time,or you'll be kept at arms length emotionally.
(regardless what mayor may not happen physically)

[Patagonie]

I have not given up yet. It actually makes me want to do my search even more seriously. It is like that movie Edge of Tomorrow. In the beginning I keep 'dying', then I wake up again and again. Every next time I keep getting better. Also the reason why I choose to do this younger than most, so I know when I finally succeed, I will still be at the right age for starting a family. It is not all hopeless. I met one real lady through organic introduction. Our outlook in life differs, which is why I did not pick her, though I still remain friend with her. Yes, there's communication after I am back home, unlike the lady at the center stage of this thread which now undoubtedly proven to be a casual pro-dater.

As I am writing, I have another lady from a smaller city in Ukraine (a solid 9) writing me. Of course I don't hold high hopes, since many Ukrainian ladies online are flakey anyway. My best bet is still organic introduction. I am hoping my local contact will come out with some new intros for me one of these days.

Your status says 'still looking'. How are you approaching this, or have things got all quiet for you already? Let's share your experience.

Nice, persistence is a clear key of the success.
BillyB is right if a woman don't ask you how was your travel, what's new from Dallas, rebound ASAP

[calmissile]

They are individuals, so each would have their own unique story?
*shrugs*


 There is a lot of MOB influence in most any city in Ukraine, as far as agencies,and has been for a long long time..anyone you are considering dating has known of it their entire adult life.It is mote pronounced where foreigners more easily travel.

My general advice is to establish communication first before visiting.
 The advise I gave in this thread was based on my feelings given your situation at the time , which i wouldn't advise to be in.
  I do think Kiev or Odessa have many nice women, if you sort someone, or someones,  out ahead of time.
 Yet being in those cities and just meeting women  -is a hail mary and not advisable. And yes particularly in those cities as despite MOB influence being everywhere in Ukraine, , those two cities have seen the most traffic of foreigners for almost 2 decades now.
 This isn't just about how that might influence the small percent of the female population that might try and take advantage of the scenario?
Its far more about how it effects the  views of the regular single women there about foreigners.
  Sorry , fair or not, (life isn't fair) you are NOT given the benefit of the doubt as a sincere man.
 You are first and foremost judged by all the foreign men  and their mentalities and actions proceeding you.A great deal wern't sincere, and regardless many that where, the concern of a local single women there is based on her and her friends perceptions!
Whether those perceptions are accurate doesn't matter !
How they see things is what you will have to deal with.
Or bypass all the women that share the common view!
 Yes i think its a bit more ingrained in areas that have seen more reasons to be jaded .
Again it has nothing to do with pro daters etc, as they are easy to avoid. It has to do with what a single young FSU women and her fiends think of a random single foreigner in her city, there simply for serial dating.That is their impression, and it isnt a good one!
So yo have to over come that.To deny its a challenge (however big or small) doesn't allow you to prepare for it.

We can gnash our teeth, scream to the sky that the women  are certainly dating regularly in their culture as well., so its not fair...That dammit!  we are driving the marshrutka, so they must take the route we want.. etc etc etc,.
  Or you can face the reality of her ,and her friends and family who influence her, perceptions !and work within those constraints, which is to prove to her you are serious before expecting really anything other than them being polite and mildly curious.
 Now ,if you can convince her you are really serious,  while fitting her into your dating schedule, while she makes sure she is on time for you  each call you make, good deal!
but lets not pretend it doesn't color the initial impression of you and your intent.It does, certainly you may overcome it, but it is a hurdle.It was a hurdle before you ever showed up.

Culturally words mean very little there, actions are all that are respected.
Your actions need to coincide with your words , 100% of the time,or you'll be kept at arms length emotionally.
(regardless what mayor may not happen physically)

Agree nearly 100%.
In addition, men need to assess the costs in time and money before pursuing a FSUW.  There is no sense starting  something that you do not have the resources to follow through on.