yet another reflection on Photoguy's K-1 experience

[KenC]

   

   Re: Reflecting on our K-1 period
« Reply #84 on: Yesterday at 01:31:47 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish this topic had stayed locked. Now I have to defend
myself against untrue bull***t statements that mis-characterize who I am.
For example Andrewfin writes that I didn't have the time or money
for a second visit. Completely untrue. She talked me into coming to
the US. She was enthusiastic about seeing America.
So should we look at Larisa as a scammer? She scammed you for an all expense paid 90 day vacation in America. How could a "mature" man of 52 allow a 20 something year old girl talk him into such foolishness? Where was your head? (The one that is supposed to be on your shoulders)
In retrospect,
our second meeting should have been in her home town. I admit to
that mistake.
Oh, you mean us geezers got something right?

The second mis-characterization, is the whole idea that
this sequence of events was something horrible. Haven't any of you
dated a woman and then broke up?
Not after being engaged to her, NO! You play both sides of the fence on this one. On one hand you sincerely wanted to marry her, but yet on the other hand, it was just a casual "dating thing." Make up your mind, because it can't be both.
Geesh. I admit that I love the
woman. Her emotions are more 'mixed' regarding me, with many factors affecting
her including bad health and her possessive parents.
How could you ever get engaged to a woman that was "ambivalent" about you? Are you that desperate?
Another bull***t
statement is that I had fallen in love with a photo. A total crock.
I agree with you. You fell in love with the idea of being in love. Larisa was just the necessary missing piece for your fantasy

I am tired of this crap. I relate my experiences for the good of
everyone, and I have to deal with character assassination? I have never
been married, so that's twisted into the idea that I'm a naive idiot
who just fell off the turnip truck.
I don't ever recall anyone questioning your character. But your foolishness shows clearly through your actions. And yes, the turnip truck seems rather close to your current location

I am glad I chose Larisa, and yes if I had followed jb's, KenC's and Anono's
advice, I would have discarded Larisa for a number of ridiculous reasons.
In that way, KenC was telling me to give up (on her, specifically)
Hmm, I just reread your 25 page marathon thread, and no where in it did I ever encourage you to give up. Maybe give up on your foolish ways, but I never discouraged you from trying to do the right things
Although it may have not worked out, I am happy I pursued Larisa and
spent time with her...   Yes, you can choose a woman who is not a challenge,
a woman who is in love with you from DAY 1 (or even DAY14), but in that case
you better beware of GCG's and ultra-desperate types.
How about choosing a woman that "likes" you? One that might not mind a kiss or two from you? How about a woman that you can actually talk to? If not that, maybe a woman that is interested enough in you to learn your language?

Actually the goal should not be 'a successful and happy marriage',
This might be your single most stupid statement ever!
 but
the goal should be to discover who she is.
Excuse me? Shouldn't you "discover who she is" before you get engaged to be married?
That process will take longer
than a few weeks. After that process(sometimes years), comes the 'happy marriage' goal.
If you discover that you are not right for each other, move on, look elsewhere.
You will have succeeded in discovering you are not right for each other.
That discovery process should not be underestimated and minimized in favor
of a view that only looks at marriage/success- separation/failure. That is way
too simple. The discovery/dating process often does not result in marriage
and that's actually okay, not some shameful failure, that opens us up to
demeaning put-downs from puffed-up authoritarians.   
As one of those "puffed up authoritarians" I would have to say that I agree with you, but that your time line is out of whack.  A more normal sequence of events should be discovery/dating/engagement/happy marriage. Please note that the dating comes before the engagement.

How someone in your position, can still insist that he attained some level of success, is beyond comprehension.

My wife has told me about a scammer in her agency. This girl would lead on her AM victim for free trips to Moscow and all the wining and dining that could be had. She eve worked a few "marks" into taking her to America on K-1 visas. She would continue to work the guy until the end of the 90 day periods and return home with her bounty of gifts. Of course her claim is that she was returning home to give the thought of marriage some more time. Of course she always came to the same conclusion that she really didn't want to marry the guy.

If you take away all of your romanticism of what has happened, Larisa is no better than this despicable scammer. She worked you for a free vacation in Kiev for herself and her friend. At least the scammer I spoke of put out. You didn't even get kissed! She further worked you for a 90 day hiatus in America. And I am sure her suitcases were significantly fuller upon her return home. Where Larisa is so much better than the scammer, is that even in leaving you, you still seem happy about the experience! Yeah, I am afraid you really did fall off that turnip truck. I for one am truly sorry that I wasted s much time trying to help someone so incapable of seeing the light of day.
KenC
 

[Jumper]

:::::::::::::note to self: KenC is NOT a Rah Rah guy::::::::::::

[Photo Guy]

AJ,
LOL
No, KenC is not a Rah Rah kinda guy.

Here, I'll point out how helpful he can be:

(My posts in blue, his in black)
I wish this topic had stayed locked. Now I have to defend
myself against untrue bull***t statements that mis-characterize who I am.
For example Andrewfin writes that I didn't have the time or money
for a second visit. Completely untrue. She talked me into coming to
the US. She was enthusiastic about seeing America.

So should we look at Larisa as a scammer? She scammed you for an all expense paid 90 day vacation in America. How could a "mature" man of 52 allow a 20 something year old girl talk him into such foolishness? Where was your head? (The one that is supposed to be on your shoulders)

Here KenC makes the positive friendly accusation that Larisa might have been a scammer,
simply because she wanted to come over and see where and how I lived.
In retrospect, our second meeting should have been in her home town. I admit to
that mistake.

Oh, you mean us geezers got something right?

Here, he pretends that I called him a geezer, rather than a 'puffed-up authoritarian'
and for some reason wants me to feel bad about admitting to a mistake.

The second mis-characterization, is the whole idea that
this sequence of events was something horrible. Haven't any of you
dated a woman and then broke up?

Not after being engaged to her, NO! You play both sides of the fence on this one. On one hand you sincerely wanted to marry her, but yet on the other hand, it was just a casual "dating thing." Make up your mind, because it can't be both.

After meeting her in Kiev, we decided we wanted to do the K1. We both suspected that we
had met the right kind of person, who could make us happy. We looked forward to three
months together in my home. Why does this bother you? It's bizarre that the idea of
a couple spending time together is somehow a bad thing for you. It's our lives, not yours.
get over it. And then KenC, you use that word, 'casual' dating thing. Why? I never thought
of our time together as something casual. For me, a 'dating thing' simply means that
two individuals are exploring and discovering who the other person is. If that phrase
disturbs you, too bad.

Geesh. I admit that I love the
woman. Her emotions are more 'mixed' regarding me, with many factors affecting
her including bad health and her possessive parents.

How could you ever get engaged to a woman that was "ambivalent" about you? Are you that desperate?

Here KenC is telling me how to pick my woman. The audacity! KenC does not know what
it was like for us to live together for almost three months. Here he has his shotgun out,
shooting in the dark. Who knows why? And why did he once advise me that I 'could do
better' and find a better woman, after only knowing so little about her? That was quite
annoying to me.
Another bull***t
statement is that I had fallen in love with a photo. A total crock.

I agree with you. You fell in love with the idea of being in love. Larisa was just the necessary missing piece for your fantasy

Here KenC concludes that Larisa was my 'fantasy'. That's based on what?
After three months of laughter, tears, trials and tribulations, he has the audacity
to tell me it was simply a fantasy. How does someone from afar, judge my
personal life? It's totally obnoxious.

I am tired of this crap. I relate my experiences for the good of
everyone, and I have to deal with character assassination? I have never
been married, so that's twisted into the idea that I'm a naive idiot
who just fell off the turnip truck.

I don't ever recall anyone questioning your character. But your foolishness shows clearly through your actions. And yes, the turnip truck seems rather close to your current location

Spending time with a woman you like, is not foolishness. Period.

I am glad I chose Larisa, and yes if I had followed jb's, KenC's and Anono's
advice, I would have discarded Larisa for a number of ridiculous reasons.
In that way, KenC was telling me to give up (on her, specifically)

Hmm, I just reread your 25 page marathon thread, and no where in it did I ever encourage you to give up. Maybe give up on your foolish ways, but I never discouraged you from trying to do the right things

Yes, you have definitely given some good advice, but you actually did encourage me
to discard Larisa, and I view that as negative influence.

Although it may have not worked out, I am happy I pursued Larisa and
spent time with her...   Yes, you can choose a woman who is not a challenge,
a woman who is in love with you from DAY 1 (or even DAY14), but in that case
you better beware of GCG's and ultra-desperate types.

How about choosing a woman that "likes" you? One that might not mind a kiss or two from you? How about a woman that you can actually talk to? If not that, maybe a woman that is interested enough in you to learn your language?

Here KenC expresses the bizarre idea that Larisa did not 'like' me. Why would he do that?
Larisa was not very affectionate during our 7 days in Kiev, but so what? Some women are shy
cautious slow starters. Larisa was affectionate during our three months here.
KenC is mis-characterizing the relationship. Why? ...Also, Larisa's ESL teach was proud of her.

Actually the goal should not be 'a successful and happy marriage',

This might be your single most stupid statement ever!

I stand by my idea that a couple must first discover who the other person is,
before creating the goal of marriage. That's basic common sense..

 but
the goal should be to discover who she is.

Excuse me? Shouldn't you "discover who she is" before you get engaged to be married?

Yes and there are various ways to do that, and some are unconventional.

That process will take longer
than a few weeks. After that process(sometimes years), comes the 'happy marriage' goal.
If you discover that you are not right for each other, move on, look elsewhere.
You will have succeeded in discovering you are not right for each other.
That discovery process should not be underestimated and minimized in favor
of a view that only looks at marriage/success- separation/failure. That is way
too simple. The discovery/dating process often does not result in marriage
and that's actually okay, not some shameful failure, that opens us up to
demeaning put-downs from puffed-up authoritarians.  

As one of those "puffed up authoritarians" I would have to say that I agree with you, but that your time line is out of whack.  A more normal sequence of events should be discovery/dating/engagement/happy marriage. Please note that the dating comes before the engagement.

Here we agree, although I don't care much about your view or society's
view of 'normal'. 'Dating' IS the discovery period I wrote about. I don't care about what you think about my personal sequence of events. Why should I? Romance is a personal thing. So go get a life.
 
How someone in your position, can still insist that he attained some level of success, is beyond comprehension.

Well that says something about your ability to comprehend various forms of success
and achievements.

My wife has told me about a scammer in her agency. This girl would lead on her AM victim for free trips to Moscow and all the wining and dining that could be had. She eve worked a few "marks" into taking her to America on K-1 visas. She would continue to work the guy until the end of the 90 day periods and return home with her bounty of gifts. Of course her claim is that she was returning home to give the thought of marriage some more time. Of course she always came to the same conclusion that she really didn't want to marry the guy.

If you take away all of your romanticism of what has happened, Larisa is no better than this despicable scammer. She worked you for a free vacation in Kiev for herself and her friend. At least the scammer I spoke of put out. You didn't even get kissed! She further worked you for a 90 day hiatus in America. And I am sure her suitcases were significantly fuller upon her return home. Where Larisa is so much better than the scammer, is that even in leaving you, you still seem happy about the experience! Yeah, I am afraid you really did fall off that turnip truck. I for one am truly sorry that I wasted s much time trying to help someone so incapable of seeing the light of day.
KenC

Here, KenC is pretending that he is 'truly sorry'. What he meant to say was that he was quite angry and offended that a 'newbie' did not follow his rigid guidelines. He finished his post, by throwing mud at Larisa, comparing her to a scammer. Now isn't that warm and fuzzy? Yikes, does he still honestly think I did not get kissed, even during our three months? Yikes! Who is the one with the (negative)fantasies? KenC, You need to get a life away from this board, and get away from the notion that you know everything that is best for everyone.

By the way, if you remove all aspects of romanticism from the relationship, you will be
left with something very dry and tasteless.

[Zhena]

Photo Guy,dont mind about the rude posts ok.
To say frankly,your story made me feel sad. You both had the good intentions,but it didnt work in some reason...whats the reason? I suppose you both werent prepared properly.

[andrewfi]

Photo Guy,dont mind about the rude posts ok.
To say frankly,your story made me feel sad. You both had the good intentions,but it didnt work in some reason...whats the reason? I suppose you both werent prepared properly.

That is the root of it!

There were other issues that compounded the problems but lack of preparedness was key. Hardly surprising though. A man approaching old age, without experience of close relationships with women, limited emotional and financial resources and a sense of impending mortality leading to the desperation that so often fills Doug's posts. 52 years avoiding being prepared hardly readies one for a lifelong committment.

That said, I think it would be hard to characterise many posts as being 'rude'. Frustrated, curt, insightful, impatient, helpful, constructive but very few were, or are rude.

[Zhena]

That said, I think it would be hard to characterise many posts as being 'rude'.

Yes,to me some posts sounded rude. I wont call the names. We all are smart when it doesnt towards us personally. But I dont think all of that posters doing always perfectly.

[Bruno]

There were other issues that compounded the problems but lack of preparedness was key. Hardly surprising though. A man approaching old age, without experience of close relationships with women, limited emotional and financial resources and a sense of impending mortality leading to the desperation that so often fills Doug's posts. 52 years avoiding being prepared hardly readies one for a lifelong committment.

OK, Andrew seem to be the expert... but it seem that the expert are similar to the studied subject ( Doug )... If i good remember, you have speak about your limited resource, about the fact that you was never married, etc ...

Like said in a previous episode of "reflection" topic... we are in a situation where the blind try to lead the blind...

Maybe it is time to stop put oil on the fire... let the fire die in peace... All was needed and all was not needed to say is already write somewhere on these forum... listen always the same song begin to be boring...

[Michelangelo]

Oh, you mean us geezers got something right?]
KenC[/b]

Not much right, KenC.  This latest attack is both crude and rude.  It's over..so let it rest!!!

Let's be positive and learn....

Photo posted some very thoughtprovoking advice when he wrote:

"Larisa really missed her life in Ukraine. She missed her family and friends.
This was a total shock to her system. She told me she did not expect to have
those feelings, and it increased her feeling of isolation and anxiety. Her lack of
English contributed to these feelings and her ESL classes countered this very well."

For those bringing girls to the US on K-1s, we need to know it will be difficult for the girl.  America is a distant and very strange land.  And without good English, successful communications will be difficult.

[PeeWee]

That is the root of it!

There were other issues that compounded the problems but lack of preparedness was key. Hardly surprising though. A man approaching old age, without experience of close relationships with women, limited emotional and financial resources and a sense of impending mortality leading to the desperation that so often fills Doug's posts. 52 years avoiding being prepared hardly readies one for a lifelong committment.

That said, I think it would be hard to characterise many posts as being 'rude'. Frustrated, curt, insightful, impatient, helpful, constructive but very few were, or are rude.

Andrew, I can tell that you and I will not get along very well. You have a tendency to make very general and derogitory statements. You may not be aware of it. 52 is no  where near "...a man approching old age." You probably just endeared yourself to a large number forum lurkers. Maybe we should oughta put you into a room full of Baby Boomers and a couple of 50 plus year old Soprano types and then see how you fair after you have declared to them that they are all old men?

Why not think about what it is you are going to say first and then write it and then not try to offened someone by it. We might all like you a little better for it. I still cannot believe  how trivial you make the military uniform out to be.

Peewee

[andrewfi]

Peewee ~ unless a man is going to live until he is well over 100 he is no longer middle aged. You can flatter yourself with your self descriptions, but 52 is not young, it is approaching old age. Come the day I need to flatter eejits who have dreams of immortality, come the day I need to look at how I live.Perhaps the element of self delusion, to which you also seem prey, is what makes it so hard for you older guys to find happiness.

You should not be offended the truth. If you are, as you appear to be,then you are the man with the problem and not I. If you need in your advancing years the crutch of a uniform of some kind, worn in your younger days, then again, sorry mate, your problem, not mine.

Bruno ~ There are quite some differences between Doug and I. Time and economic resources are just two of them, but I do know what it is to be short of both. Unlike Doug I do have some experience in areas that he lacks and somewhat less of a need to have pi$$ed on the electric fence to know that it hurts. It might be true to suggest that in the areas of which you first wrote that you and Doug are much more akin than he and I, but even given your similar constraints you have endeavoured to do the job right, even if, thus far, with a similar lack of success. I would surely be inclined to bet, if I were a gambling man, that you will attain your goals before Doug manages to live his fantasies.

[Bruno]

Bruno ~ There are quite some differences between Doug and I. Time and economic resources are just two of them, but I do know what it is to be short of both. Unlike Doug I do have some experience in areas that he lacks and somewhat less of a need to have pi$$ed on the electric fence to know that it hurts. It might be true to suggest that in the areas of which you first wrote that you and Doug are much more akin than he and I, but even given your similar constraints you have endeavoured to do the job right, even if, thus far, with a similar lack of success. I would surely be inclined to bet, if I were a gambling man, that you will attain your goals before Doug manages to live his fantasies.

Yes, i think that i will reach my goal before Doug... but i don't think that it is specially a reference... i have begin my quest for a wife in 1997, almost 9 year ago... i have know my test and trial period, make some big mistake and learn... i have use 5 year of my life with a GCG... the only reward i have from these period is that i know now what pleasure is to be father and what responsability implies these function... i have learn, i have change, i have test several strategies, date very different girls... and now, i think have find the right one... i was not really seeking her, we was friend and we have learn to know each other... the time have change our friendship in something other...

So, Doug have only start his quest recently... have know his first misluck... allow him to learn of this and continue his quest... and i am that he will find the right one with time...

Yes, 9 year for find someone can seem long... but how much here have marry a woman ( local or foreign ), use a lot of year for realise that she was not the right one... Doug love Larisa but Larisa was not sure of her feeling... She go back... What is the problem... Imagine if they have married and that after a few year, they divorce... this will be a real misluck... they have try and miss, nothing wrong with this... Simply the Doug method is not conventional but it have nothing to make with the relationship and feeling... in the future, Doug will use other strategies, if not he will adapt the actual one for have a more big chance of success...

Like Doug, i go use the Belgium fiancee visa for my Mircha... I will she know how i live, how is my country... and only when she will be sure, we will marry... She and i seem sure now but who know what she will think when she will be for the first time in Belgium... Yes, the US K1 is not a trial period but how can a FSU woman know if she will adapt to the new country if she is not able to visit these country with a tourist visa before... every lady use the K1 like a trial period because they have no other choice... People say that it is important to see how a FSU lady interact in her own country but seem how she is in her future host country is more important... Doug have use the K1 for this and he was right... It is not legal but what are the other choice in US ?

[Photo Guy]

For those out there who are reading Andrew's criticisms of my life, keep in mind the fact that Andrew actually knows very little about my finances, and yet he
pretends that he does. Why?
Also, after he PM'd me, I explained to him that I do have more than 7 weeks per year
away from my job- free time to do what I please with, including travelling.
This is what can happen when you share your experiences here. Some people
assume the absolute worst. How many pages of personal experiences has Andrew posted?
My guess is that HE is the one with issues regarding finances and free time.

I'll state again that I am happy I spent three months with Larisa. I am sorry
she returned to Ukraine, although I can certainly empathize with her predicament.
The best formed pre-planning could not have prevented the outcome.
 
If you are able to get a leave of absence from your job for six months or
a year, go over there and live with her for that amount of time. Otherwise
the K1 period WILL BE a continuation of the dating/discovery period.
I guarantee that. ...And that's okay. If you make a commitment after only a
few weeks, I think you would be rushing into it too fast. That early stage
is just the 'infatuation' stage.  Above all, stay positive! Life is an adventure.

[PeeWee]

For those out there who are reading Andrew's criticisms of my life, keep in mind the fact that Andrew actually knows very little about my finances, and yet he
pretends that he does. Why?
Also, after he PM'd me, I explained to him that I do have more than 7 weeks per year
away from my job- free time to do what I please with, including travelling.
This is what can happen when you share your experiences here. Some people
assume the absolute worst. How many pages of personal experiences has Andrew posted?
My guess is that HE is the one with issues regarding finances and free time.

I'll state again that I am happy I spent three months with Larisa. I am sorry
she returned to Ukraine, although I can certainly empathize with her predicament.
The best formed pre-planning could not have prevented the outcome.
 
If you are able to get a leave of absence from your job for six months or
a year, go over there and live with her for that amount of time. Otherwise
the K1 period WILL BE a continuation of the dating/discovery period.
I guarantee that. ...And that's okay. If you make a commitment after only a
few weeks, I think you would be rushing into it too fast. That early stage
is just the 'infatuation' stage.  Above all, stay positive! Life is an adventure.

 

I'd like to read an official definition of what the intent of the K-1 visa is. Without knowing it my tendency is to agree with PG. There has to be a discovery period and although the 90 days that is alotted is short by any standards there has to be discovery still going on in some for. If nothing else she is learning if she can adapt to her life in her new country. In the meantime the dating process is still happening because you did not marry her. I think PG is looking at this in the right way.

With that said I think too that before someone processes the paperwork for the K-1 that they should have a clue as to whether or not this is a good match. Not saying that PG did not know it just saying that generally the better you prepare the better may be the outcome.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

Peewee ~ unless a man is going to live until he is well over 100 he is no longer middle aged. You can flatter yourself with your self descriptions, but 52 is not young, it is approaching old age. Come the day I need to flatter eejits who have dreams of immortality, come the day I need to look at how I live.Perhaps the element of self delusion, to which you also seem prey, is what makes it so hard for you older guys to find happiness.

You should not be offended the truth. If you are, as you appear to be,then you are the man with the problem and not I. If you need in your advancing years the crutch of a uniform of some kind, worn in your younger days, then again, sorry mate, your problem, not mine.

Bruno ~ There are quite some differences between Doug and I. Time and economic resources are just two of them, but I do know what it is to be short of both. Unlike Doug I do have some experience in areas that he lacks and somewhat less of a need to have pi$$ed on the electric fence to know that it hurts. It might be true to suggest that in the areas of which you first wrote that you and Doug are much more akin than he and I, but even given your similar constraints you have endeavoured to do the job right, even if, thus far, with a similar lack of success. I would surely be inclined to bet, if I were a gambling man, that you will attain your goals before Doug manages to live his fantasies.

Andrew, the life expectancy of a Russian man is 58 years old. To your way of thinking you would of course tell him..." A man approaching (death), without experience of close relationships with women, limited emotional and financial resources and a sense of impending mortality leading to the desperation that so often fills Doug's posts."

Sound insensative to me but that is just how you present your thoughts. You need to think abou what you say in the event that it might just offened someone.

Other than that you do have some good advices to dish out from time to time.

Peewee

[Admin]

 

I'd like to read an official definition of what the intent of the K-1 visa is. Without knowing it my tendency is to agree with PG. There has to be a discovery period and although the 90 days that is alotted is short by any standards there has to be discovery still going on in some for. If nothing else she is learning if she can adapt to her life in her new country. In the meantime the dating process is still happening because you did not marry her. I think PG is looking at this in the right way.

With that said I think too that before someone processes the paperwork for the K-1 that they should have a clue as to whether or not this is a good match. Not saying that PG did not know it just saying that generally the better you prepare the better may be the outcome.

Peewee

This is one area where jb and others definitely have the law correct. If I find the time, I'll look up the citations - but for now, suffice to say the K-1 is entitled a "Fiance visa" for a reason. The expectation is that people who exercise it, have already made the decision to marry (through 'normal' time periods and means) - and are merely in need of 90 days to make the final arrangements for their marriage. It was NEVER intended to be a period for people who did not know one another - the time to gain that familiarity and THEN decide to marry.

In fact, if the beneficiary (recipient) of a K-1 visa were to tell an interviewer at the Embassy - or the Border Control agent at the airport - that they are coming here simply to try things out before marriage and did not have specific plans to marry - that interviewer/agent would be well within their rights to reject that person.

I do NOT have specific knowledge of this ever happening - but then again, most people whom I know (or know of) have been counselled to be sure they do NOT say something like that upon entry - so I know of no instances where someone said that to an authority.

Some people, like KenC, recognizing this issue - went different routes to insure they had more time together prior to marriage. Those routes are not easy - and are probably getting tougher all the time - but that is what one man did when faced with the issue - he chose a more expensive process which was probably also more difficult - but it allowed he and Lena more time to decide.

Just FWIW

- Dan

[Jumper]

peewee said

-I'd like to read an official definition of what the intent of the K-1 visa is

go to the BCIS website.It is very clear.
its name is indicative of its definition and purpose,
 it is a *fiancee visa* granted to those couples already engaged ,
with plans to marry when she comes to the US.
it even has a window of oppurtunity to perform the wedding within 90 days.
or the visa is no longer valid.
it's kind of self defining isnt it? LOL

seriously peewee when you file a k1,
 you must  attest that you both have full intentions and plans to marry, or the K1 would not be granted.
its the purpose of the visa, the purpose of the interview etc etc.

you cant even think to say ..
*well we want to see if we really care about each other enough to marry and explore our relationship further *..or
* we need to see if she can adapt to living here*..
 the visa would be promptly declined.

I dont have a dog in this fight,
Many abuse the intended use of the K1, but it couldnt be more clear how it is to be used and both parties musr sign affidavits swearing to uphold these restrictions,or do so in the interview process.

do i care? no.
If a man and woman want to use the 90 day K1 as a dating period or trial period thats thier business?..in fact it is probably used more often that way than in its intended light.

i've known couples who filed multiple K1's..
spending a year together before marriage,
probably not a likely scenerio , but it has occured.
evey couple wil do what is best for them?


and each case is different?
my wife was waiting a good man,,one she could love.
she was hoping he would be tall dark and handsome prince of course!
(poor girl got me instead)
but regardless if he turned out to be a  goofball like me,
she would expect a proposal of marriage to be, well,
 a proposal of marriage
(there's your traditional and pragmatic RW for you)
in our case a K1 would have in her mind just been time to make wedding arrangements..
as i had proposed, she had accepted,, i had asked her family for her hand in marraige etc..

its only theoretical- as i was absolutely sure or i would not have asked!
but if i wasnt sure,
she would have VERY likely told me to come back when i grew up..LOL or when i was sure about her..
(a *cough* traditional RW,lol they expect you to be strong confident and sure of all decisions,certainly one of such magnitude,and they seldom mince words)  
in light of the situation of many traviling to the FSU, that may seem folly on her part..and mine,..
why not plan a trial ? and see how it goes?
 afterall it is an availible option?
but its just an example of how all couples will be different.in their paths..
 we were both on the same page,,(isnt that key?)
i wouldnt think of asking for her hand if did not intend to take it..
she would have viewd any offer of marriage,, be it K1 or whatever ,
as just that, nothing less.and decided accordingly..
it effected how her family viewed or relationship and marriage as well.
They are very traditional.

other couples will do things completely differently, and it will work for them..

[Jumper]

sorry Dan,
we posted basically the same thing , at the same time ..

[Admin]

sorry Dan,
we posted basically the same thing , at the same time ..

No worries. 

- Dan

[Son of Clyde]

FWIW, the laws are arcane, to say the least.
I personally think the law should be relaxed to at least allow single women a tourist or work visa. With all these illegal Mexicans, it must be very dangerous to our security to unleash a few RW into the US. Maybe they will fit into our society and be accepted as real, decent people. Maybe in time Larisa could have adapted had it been another type of visa.

[BC]

Clyde,

If I were somehow able to become President the first thing I would do is abolish K1 and make everyone go K3.  Sorta like put your money where your mouth is..  DV divorces as a deterrent for those too much in a rush to think about their actions. In fact I'm almost ready to write my congressman with this idea.

Having been through the process of getting my wife and kids tourist visas for the US we probably had more scrutiny than other applicants (and remember I was not allowed to be at the interview).. but the intent of the trip was real and we had good documentation to support that there was little chance that this was an attempt to immigrate.  I submit that any RW even beautiful with proper intent and their duckies in a row can get a tourist visa.

Maybe there should be a D1 Dating visa? Write your congressman about that.

[Admin]

FWIW, the laws are arcane, to say the least.
I personally think the law should be relaxed to at least allow single women a tourist or work visa. With all these illegal Mexicans, it must be very dangerous to our security to unleash a few RW into the US. Maybe they will fit into our society and be accepted as real, decent people. Maybe in time Larisa could have adapted had it been another type of visa.

Actually, I do not think it is a problem with the laws.

Ukrainians, Russians, Moldovans - are all permitted to visit the US with an appropriate visa (Tourist or Work or School or K-1 or ??).

So there is, at least, the possibility for travel to the US which would allow a substantial amount of time in country - with a visa OTHER than a K-1.

I have met numerous Ukrainians who had spent a great deal of time in the US on education visas, for example. IIRC, there was (is?) a program which was started by a former USA VP and designed to target youngsters from communist countries. There was (is?) money set aside to pay for those who qualify to come live with a host family in the US and study for up to one year. Usually, those are kids in the last couple of years of high school. The obvious intent of the program was to overcome the propaganda and brainwashing of the Soviets - and since they selected only the most gifted, they wanted those people to return to their country (VERY strict requirements on this) and to influence future direction of their countries which would favor the USA. Pretty smart thinking, if you ask me.

As for what does NOT work about the current visa regime - it is the FACT that FSU citizens too often overstay their visas. Becase of this, they represent a more serious risk than people from other countries. Not risk in the form of terrorism, perhaps - but economic risk, hence, they receive a much higher degree of scrutiny and rejection. Having said that, I recall reading some statistics about the rejection rates from the US Embassies in Ukraine and Russia, and I was surprised at the small percentage of people who applied and interviewed for visas were actually rejected. It was a very small amount - less than 10 % IIRC.

Since most countries practice tit-for-tat diplomacy, I have been waiting for the US to soften the visa regime somewhat, in light of Ukraine having softened theirs for US citizens - but I guess with the memory of 9/11 still so fresh, security concerns are overwhelming other diplomatic interests at the moment.

Anyway - my take on the visa problem is simple. the K-1 has a very specific intended purpose. Use it for it's intended purpose, and you should be fine. If you have a DIFFERENT purpose in mind - then it is a bit folly to blame the government for your misuse of the system they implemented.

Just my rambling and long-winded take on matters.

- Dan

[PeeWee]

Actually, I do not think it is a problem with the laws.

Ukrainians, Russians, Moldovans - are all permitted to visit the US with an appropriate visa (Tourist or Work or School or K-1 or ??).

So there is, at least, the possibility for travel to the US which would allow a substantial amount of time in country - with a visa OTHER than a K-1.

I have met numerous Ukrainians who had spent a great deal of time in the US on education visas, for example. IIRC, there was (is?) a program which was started by a former USA VP and designed to target youngsters from communist countries. There was (is?) money set aside to pay for those who qualify to come live with a host family in the US and study for up to one year. Usually, those are kids in the last couple of years of high school. The obvious intent of the program was to overcome the propaganda and brainwashing of the Soviets - and since they selected only the most gifted, they wanted those people to return to their country (VERY strict requirements on this) and to influence future direction of their countries which would favor the USA. Pretty smart thinking, if you ask me.

As for what does NOT work about the current visa regime - it is the FACT that FSU citizens too often overstay their visas. Becase of this, they represent a more serious risk than people from other countries. Not risk in the form of terrorism, perhaps - but economic risk, hence, they receive a much higher degree of scrutiny and rejection. Having said that, I recall reading some statistics about the rejection rates from the US Embassies in Ukraine and Russia, and I was surprised at the small percentage of people who applied and interviewed for visas were actually rejected. It was a very small amount - less than 10 % IIRC.

Since most countries practice tit-for-tat diplomacy, I have been waiting for the US to soften the visa regime somewhat, in light of Ukraine having softened theirs for US citizens - but I guess with the memory of 9/11 still so fresh, security concerns are overwhelming other diplomatic interests at the moment.

Anyway - my take on the visa problem is simple. the K-1 has a very specific intended purpose. Use it for it's intended purpose, and you should be fine. If you have a DIFFERENT purpose in mind - then it is a bit folly to blame the government for your misuse of the system they implemented.

Just my rambling and long-winded take on matters.

- Dan

That explains it well enough for me, Dan. Thanks. A visa is like a tool to select from your tool belt. Alway select the proper tool to accomplish the job.

Peewee

[Jooky]

I personally think the law should be relaxed to at least allow single women a tourist or work visa.

Plenty of single Russian women come to the US on tourist and work visas. It's just not likely that you will meet many of these women at a marriage agency.

The law allows for Russian who intend to legitimately work in or tour the US to do. It's only those whose intentions are deemed questionable (ie. are likely not to return to Russia) who are denied a visa.

[Killer-B]

FWIW the gal I'm meeting in Denver on the 29th is coming from Moscow on a "work visa" as a teacher, English no less!! And really had my reservations that she actually pulled this off (no one under 30, without "Stability" is able to get a tourist visa to America - or so they tell me) - But, today is only the 24th LOL - 5 more days, and we'll see if she was for real or not - :noidea:

After 911, I think we've all seen the visa process tighten up a bit.... I know they gave me the 3rd degree at LAX when re-entering - and I'm 100% born and raised American!!

[Jet]

 

I'd like to read an official definition of what the intent of the K-1 visa is. Without knowing it my tendency is to agree with PG.

It's your lucky day Peewee 

This is what the law has to say
TITLE 8--ALIENS AND NATIONALITY

  * CHAPTER 12--IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
    o SUBCHAPTER II--IMMIGRATION
     + PART II--ADMISSION QUALIFICATIONS FOR ALIENS; TRAVEL CONTROL OF CITIZENS AND ALIENS

Sec. 1184. Admission of nonimmigrants

(a) Regulations

(9)(d) Issuance of visa to fiancee or fiance of citizen

    A visa shall not be issued under the provisions of section
1101(a)(15)(K)(i) of this title until the consular officer has received
a petition filed in the United States by the fiancee and fiance of the
applying alien and approved by the Attorney General. The petition shall
be in such form and contain such information as the Attorney General
shall, by regulation, prescribe. It shall be approved only after
satisfactory evidence is submitted by the petitioner to establish that
the parties have previously met in person within 2 years before the date
of filing the petition, have a bona fide intention to marry, and are
legally able and actually willing to conclude a valid marriage in the
United States within a period of ninety days after the alien's arrival,
except that the Attorney General in his discretion may waive the
requirement that the parties have previously met in person. In the event
the marriage with the petitioner does not occur within three months
after the admission of the said alien and minor children, they shall be
required to depart from the United States and upon failure to do so
shall be removed in accordance with sections 1229a and 1231 of this
title.