Principles before personalities

[BC]

No.. I don't want to start another eposode of the current drama being played out in 'another'.. 'yet another' and 'yet yet another' threads.

I took a step back looking for some commonality involved in these and the many other threads.  Two stick out like sore thumbs:

1. Some here seem to dwell on personalities involved rather than concentrating on the principles being expressed.

2. Resentments are being harbored and/or used in a defensive manner instead of being resolved.

The result is an ever lasting feeding frenzy that seemingly will not subside.

I submit that when responding to posts one should be able to find the principles involved and respond to those accordingly no matter how badly written or offensive the rest of the post may seem.  I've often done this and more often than not was rewarded with new knowledge and less trash.  Responding to offensive portions of posts only serves to amplify responses to ever increasing levels.

Very few here know each other personally and considering this fact should be mature enough to realize that if you are offended by a post it's because you decide to be offended. If you do so you are simply setting yourself up with a resentment that you will have to deal with.  IMHO resentments are like excess baggage with no clear destination.  Carrying it is really your option and if you find yourself overburdened only you can do something about it to lighten the load.  I force myself to dump any resentment asap lest I become a crooked man.  If I find myself harboring one there is something within myself that needs to be looked at in depth.

Thoughts anyone?

[viking]

Sounds like you have been reading Dr. Ellis's 'Guide to Irrational Living'.

Two of his common irrational ideas are:

I SHOULD become upset over my and other peoples problems or behaviors.

There is invariably ONE right, precise, and PERFECT solution and it would be TERRIBLE and CATASTROPHIC if this perfect solution is not found.

There are others but these are for starters.

[Admin]

Sounds like you have been reading Dr. Ellis's 'Guide to Irrational Living'.

Two of his common irrational ideas are:

I SHOULD become upset over my and other peoples problems or behaviors.

There is invariably ONE right, precise, and PERFECT solution and it would be TERRIBLE and CATASTROPHIC if this perfect solution is not found.

There are others but these are for starters.

You must be referencing Albert Ellis ??

I attended a conference a while back offered by one of Ellis' proteges. It was a little like sitting in a room full of angry hornets - getting 'stung' every few minutes. Quite the ride. I often refer to Ellis as inventing the "In Your Face!" form of psychotherapy.

- Dan

[PeeWee]

No.. I don't want to start another eposode of the current drama being played out in 'another'.. 'yet another' and 'yet yet another' threads.

I took a step back looking for some commonality involved in these and the many other threads.  Two stick out like sore thumbs:

1. Some here seem to dwell on personalities involved rather than concentrating on the principles being expressed.

2. Resentments are being harbored and/or used in a defensive manner instead of being resolved.

The result is an ever lasting feeding frenzy that seemingly will not subside.

I submit that when responding to posts one should be able to find the principles involved and respond to those accordingly no matter how badly written or offensive the rest of the post may seem.  I've often done this and more often than not was rewarded with new knowledge and less trash.  Responding to offensive portions of posts only serves to amplify responses to ever increasing levels.

Very few here know each other personally and considering this fact should be mature enough to realize that if you are offended by a post it's because you decide to be offended. If you do so you are simply setting yourself up with a resentment that you will have to deal with.  IMHO resentments are like excess baggage with no clear destination.  Carrying it is really your option and if you find yourself overburdened only you can do something about it to lighten the load.  I force myself to dump any resentment asap lest I become a crooked man.  If I find myself harboring one there is something within myself that needs to be looked at in depth.

Thoughts anyone?

What you suggest sounds right, BC. Yet there is a part of a human's nature that urges them to flight or fight. The flight or fight urgency is stronger one way or the other in all people. Those that have the stronger tendency to stay, or fight, will respond in a defensive way if they feel either threatened or if they feel at least that they need to defend their position.

What I think better, and Lena said it to me two or three weeks ago when we discussed relationships, "When man and woman disagree about an issue I hope that later we will be able to drink tea and discuss other things. I hope that we never take that disagreement into our bedroom."  That is a very wise idea. I agree with her.

It means that while disagreements will happen that once the discussion is had, whether an agreement of the minds is reached or not, that nothing is harbored in the way of resentment beyond that. I can say something and then forget about it the next day. I put things behind me very well. Perhaps it is another way to say what it is that you have to say here and then move on to something else.

Peewee

[BC]

Viking,

No haven't read the book but does look interesting. If I see it at a used book shop might pick it up. 'Principles before personalities' was of those 'buzz phrases' I heard long ago that made so much sense that I just couldn't get rid of it if I tried.. 

Discussed resentments and many other things long ago with a good older friend I truly respected.. you know those 'rocking chair on the porch with a beer in the evening' type chats.

His favorite phrase was "I wouldn't fix it for you if I could son, but if you're up to listenin' maybe you'll learn to deal with it yourself." He dispensed some pretty bitter pills but they always seemed to work in time.

[catzenmouse]

I wrote this last evening in the "Rah Rah" thread. Seems related to this topic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RWD can be (and very often is) a very close knit and very informative community of like minded individuals.

The one thing that often makes me shake my head is that someone can write a great post filled with wonderfully usefull and relevant information that would be completely needed by anyone starting this quest and most who are already involved in this quest and in one or two sentences destroy all of this great information with a couple of snide comments or personal shots at someone. I just don't see the point of this beyond self gratification and whatever satisfaction they would get from belittling someone that they consider lower than them.

Can someone who shows great integrity and class with vast knowledge be listened to when they go classless with degrading comments? Guess that will depend on the listener.

If you can glean the good information from a post and ignore the crap then you can learn an amazing amount of information that will help you and guide you through the tons of pitfalls that are to come.

If you cannot take that step back and look at the good in a message then sadly the good in that message will be lost. We here have and will continue to have a lot of good to impart to those who are here now and will come here in the future. Will the people with the knowledge be able to pass on this knowledge in a way that will be received, understood, and used by those who need it? We will just have to wait and see.

FWIW, YMMV, IMO,
Ken

[jb]

Ken, Catzenmouse,,,

I like you, you have a level head on your shoulders and often write things that make me say to myself: "Wow~! I wish I'd said that".

However, in this case, and I think we are talking about the same case, there are times when we must realize that a RW wife is not for everybody.  No matter how pretty the RWs are, no matter how sweet and loving they appear to be, they are, actually and verifiably, very high maintenance women.  If you consider the trips to meet, court, woo, and win, and ultimately finish up with the entire BCIS process of getting them here, established, and on the road to citizenship,,, well, the investment is just huge.  Not every man who walks through the doors here is financially, emotionally, and mentally equipped to handle the end product.  Most of these morons think they are buying a Barbie Doll.  The evidence is in their posts.

I'd say we do a great service to those who display those traits not suitable for RW marriage when we attempt to dissuade them from going where they are going to sink into quicksand. 

Just my opinion, YMMV.

[andrewfi]

jb is talking good sense here. We are not all equal, we do not all have the same attributes and for sure, we do nobody any favours by encouraging rash behaviour and faulty perceptions.

In the process of comunicating we are inevitably going to upset people from time to time. But we would do well to remember the 10% rule. !0% of what we say will hurt the hearer, but in only ten per cent of those cases was what was said MEANT to hurt.

If Doug (and some others here) had good close friends with understanding of the issues involved then a few quiet words over a beer and a barbeque might be enough to help these guys. But on an interent discussion board, well, it is like a big noisy public bar full of people who don't fully understand each other. People are going to be upset, to try to make it so that people are not miffed from time to time wil lalso ensure that the value of the site is removed as well.

[Bruno]

However, in this case, and I think we are talking about the same case, there are times when we must realize that a RW wife is not for everybody.  No matter how pretty the RWs are, no matter how sweet and loving they appear to be, they are, actually and verifiable, very high maintenance women.  If you consider the trips to meet, court, woo, and win, and ultimately finish up with the entire BCIS process of getting them here, established, and on the road to citizenship,,, well, the investment is just huge.  Not every man who walks through the doors here is financially, emotionally, and mentally equipped to handle the end product.  Most of these morons think they are buying a Barbie Doll.  The evidence is in their posts.

I can only disagree again with you...

Trip, court, paperwork are high money thing... but they are one time expense... the big money is not used during the dating period but after marriage... the little 250-500$ month expense for new wife become huge amount after a few year... these expense are language lesson, visit yearly to family, gift to family ( empty hand is not welcome in FSU ), child, ...

Now, you have not one RW but several RW... one can be more "cheap" that the other... it is only a problem of expectation... the old guy who choice a young lady just out of college can expect big expense in University, professional formation... these who date beauty queen can expect cost related to these beauty ( clothes, hairdresser, expensive make-up, beauty saloon, etc ... )

The real problem is not the cost of a RW but choose the right RW for ourself... If your are old, ugly and with low education, you will need a big wallet for keep a beauty queen who is young with very high diploma...

Expectation on both side are the keyword... You can find everything in FSU... but if you date better that you date in your own country, expect more expense or/and difficulty...

The first time, i have marry a beauty... now, i have find a soulmate... i think that my chance of long term success now are more big now that the first time... The only thing who have change is that i have change my expectation... lower the physical side, rise the mind and character side... and the result is not bad, a FSU lady with a physical better that mine, with knowledge of several language, with high education ( psychologue and translator ) and working in business...

[jb]

Bruno,

You say this:

I can only disagree again with you...

Then you proceed to write four paragraphs supporting my thesis, what's up with you?  I say "black" , you say "white".  It must be a european thing.

[PeeWee]

Bruno,

You say this:
Then you proceed to write four paragraphs supporting my thesis, what's up with you?  I say "black" , you say "white".  It must be a european thing.

You are an astute fellow, jb. Bruno probably knows that so perhaps he likes to draw you out and put you to task from time to time. I'd take that as a compliment. I do just that from time to time myself with people who seem to have a lot on the ball, so to speak.

Peewee

[catzenmouse]

jb,

 I totally agree that an FSUW is not for everybody, (or for that matter just anybody) as it takes a whole lot more than a regular girl next door type of relationship. More time, more patience, more money, more patience, more changes, more patience, etc.

 I do feel that if someone is willing to take this all on, no matter what anyone else may think of that person or their chances of success, then they should be able to come to a place like this and ask all kinds of questions without getting beaten up for asking the question and also not get beaten up for not following the advice that they are given.

 Yes, it can be VERY frustrating for us to see something, to know the answer, to try a dozen different ways to get the answer heard by those who need it but, it does not get the answer heard any better or make it clear for those to come if these good answers are mixed in with a bunch of "you are an idiot" type of statements.

 If RWD had been around a few years back when I first started this I know full well that I would still be bruised and bloodied by the beatings I would have taken. I made every single stupid mistake in the book (except for sending money) so when I see someone here making these mistakes I can truly sympathise with them and understand how difficult it is to really listen and to learn from the lessons of others.

 What I learned, I learned by screwing up, and screwing up again, then a little light would turn on and I would get something that was told to me a dozen times, then I would start the process over again with more screw ups. Eventually I did a couple of things right and now I've been married for a year and a half to a very wonderful, talented, beautiful woman who in spite of myself truly does love me (poor thing...) but the road I took to get to this place was no better or easier than much of what others, including Doug, are doing/have done. As much as Doug knew he was going to get bashed to death for coming back and telling more of his story he did in fact come back. That says a lot to me.

Ken

P. S. Thank you very much. That also means a lot to me.

[catzenmouse]

a FSU lady with a physical better that mine,

Bruno,

 I've seen your picture..... this was the easy part.... 

Ken

[Bruno]

Then you proceed to write four paragraphs supporting my thesis, what's up with you?  I say "black" , you say "white".  It must be a european thing.

It was mainly over your : "we must realize that a RW wife is not for everybody"...

It exist a RW for everybody... the main problem is choice the right one... the same rule apply with RW that with local women... Choice somebody very similar to you : education, beauty, hobby, character... Trade up and you will pay the price...

The fact that the lady is Russian change nothing... with time, she will be almost a American ( or Belgish ) lady and will act partially like a local one...

You say "Black" but i don't say "white"... i simply moderate the "Black" and the result is some shade of "Gray"...

So, RW is for everybody... if your choice the right one... everybody can find some money or time... but nobody can stay long time with a woman when he have make the wrong choice...

[Bruno]

Bruno,
 I've seen your picture..... this was the easy part.... 

Don't worry, i am like a Cameleon... and of course, she have already make some change... Second day to the hairdresser for cut the long hair and help to loose a few kilo during the stay in Odessa... and of course, make comment about my clothes...

Now, time to sleep... just finish read all the post missed during my stay in Ukraine... needed almost 24 hours... and some say the forum was calm when i was not here !!!

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ I suggest that jb, when suggesting that a a 'Russian wife' was not for everyone was referring to more than just personality. If it were true that there was a RUssian woman for every American man who wanted one, on the basis of personality alone, then it would also be true that there would be no need to travel to the FSU in search of a bride. There would, by extension be plenty of suitable American women.

But, if one is going to seek, find and engage in a successful long term relationshp such as marriage, with a person from a different culture, in a different place, one that is resource intensive to visit, stay and return to then there are practical limitations. For a start, this is not a venture for paupers, it is not a venture for those who are time poor, it is nt a venture for those unable to be more than averagely sensitive to non-verbalcomunication and the cultural differences that apply in this area. (one might also include aspects of personal resources that have made it necessary to seek marriage outwith one's own community, bit that is a scary area...)

Given no reasonable lack of resources, it is not difficult to find, over here, a plethora of suitable women, just as many as in one's home community, were one minded to look there; but remove those resources and the chances of success, as we have seen time after time, are reduced towards zero.

Life is not fair, life is not equal and a big part of attaining success and satisfaction in life is to be adequately self-aware to be able to map one's own limits and live within them.

[Bruno]

If it were true that there was a RUssian woman for every American man who wanted one, on the basis of personality alone, then it would also be true that there would be no need to travel to the FSU in search of a bride. There would, by extension be plenty of suitable American women.

Andrew, you are right... I am sure that somewhere in Belgium, i can find a suitable partner... like a American can find a suitable women in America...

And it is what happen in the majority of case, the men who seek abroad are a minority compare to the total local population...

But why limit us to the local market when when can prospect the local market and the World market...

If by example, you have one suitable women by million of citizen... it mean that in Belgium, i will have only 10 suitable women... but worldwide, i will have 6565 suitable women... why limit myself to seek only these 10 one when the choice is more big worldwide...

I don't believe that all US women are bitch, are fat, are feminist extremist... but since it is so easy to communicate with the other side of the world, so easy to travel the other side of the world why limit ourself...

And what is your definition of own community ? Do you mean same country, or same state, or same city, or same street ?

Maybe i don't see the fact of dating a FSU women more difficult that dating one Belgium one since our microscopic country have already 3 language zone ( French, Dutch, German ) with 3 different culture... myself being a immigrant from one zone to a other, i partially know the possible adaptation problem for a foreign bride ( language, culture, familial isolation, etc ... ).

[coco]

Microscopic country???So what should I say?

Well this microscopic country just bought the largest Russian steelmaker.

[PeeWee]

Bruno ~ I suggest that jb, when suggesting that a a 'Russian wife' was not for everyone was referring to more than just personality. If it were true that there was a RUssian woman for every American man who wanted one, on the basis of personality alone, then it would also be true that there would be no need to travel to the FSU in search of a bride. There would, by extension be plenty of suitable American women.

But, if one is going to seek, find and engage in a successful long term relationshp such as marriage, with a person from a different culture, in a different place, one that is resource intensive to visit, stay and return to then there are practical limitations. For a start, this is not a venture for paupers, it is not a venture for those who are time poor, it is nt a venture for those unable to be more than averagely sensitive to non-verbalcomunication and the cultural differences that apply in this area. (one might also include aspects of personal resources that have made it necessary to seek marriage outwith one's own community, bit that is a scary area...)

Given no reasonable lack of resources, it is not difficult to find, over here, a plethora of suitable women, just as many as in one's home community, were one minded to look there; but remove those resources and the chances of success, as we have seen time after time, are reduced towards zero.

Life is not fair, life is not equal and a big part of attaining success and satisfaction in life is to be adequately self-aware to be able to map one's own limits and live within them.

Mostly I think about whether or not if I can afford the financial aspect or not. And I have an income well above average. Yet because the monetary expenses are nebulus I have no idea what to expect. Some of those expenses would have been indured as a result of a normal dating of a women who lives in your own county. Gifts, movies, transportation costs by car to and from your home to yours. And if the dating cycle is longer the costs to her increase. So the over all cost of your FSU lady is first reduced by whatever that amount would have been.

Now you are married. Some of those expenses are again common to any marriage. The extra would be English lessons, driver training, transfer costs, and maybe one or two more expenses but the rest, such as food and clothing are the same. Unless an FSU demands more expensive food and clothing than a local woman would.

And is the time invested really higher? If you dated a local woman for 2 years seeing her three to four times each week or weekend. Spending whatever money happens in that relationship is that any more time consuming than two or three trips of 2 weeks each to Ukraine, for example? I'm thinking that to locate, court, and marry a woman from any foreign country may not, in the end result, be that much more expensive than if you married a woman from your own country. And even if it is how much more expensive in both time and money is it after you first remove the costs of dating and marrying a local woman?

These are some of the things that I think about and as far as I can tell there is not concrete answer to my questions. Andrew has made an excellent point but I think that he needs to go more in depth with some of his statements that are more general in nature. A good post, Andrew, you got me to thinking and worrying again.

Peewee

[andrewfi]

Bruno ~ I was excluding personality issues from the equation because, well, lets not go there. But if one beleives that a suitable mate is so rare that a population of several million (your country, a large city, a US state) is not large enough, then the chances of finding anyone anywhere are very slim indeed and statisitcally, if the chacees of finding a mate are the same everywhere (desperation aside), then one is better by far paying attention to those nearest, not those furthest away.

But, IMHO, there are many suitable mates for a person who does not have unreasonable expectations in a mate and in his own merits. One does not have to travel far, unless there are other reasons, not normally connected with marriage, for doing so. (status, misplaced understanding/expectations etc)

Peewee ~ I am not married, but I can see differences between a marriage to a woman from your social background and one from 'outside'. Chances are that one;s new bride will be unable to be economically productive for some time and probably NEVER at the level at which the 'average' Amercian might expect his/her spouse to contribute. Of course there will be exceptions, but most women will have the burden of languae to bear and this coupled with a disrupted career path. From what I have seen, those who want to move country and who have the intellectual and other resources to do the job without marring a mule of some kind do so. Again, there will be exceptions, but are the women you guys meet the top acheivers in their society, in economic amd professional terms? (It think we know the answer don't we eh?)
So you are going to need to bear a larger burden of support than is common in the US where most couples have two breadwinners.

Another point is this. I wrote on a Saturday afternoon. I was out last night with friends, I met perhaps four or five woman that I may meet again. Tonight I will probably go out with another woman on a double date and see another at some point in the week. This is normal social interaction. When you are concentrating your resources of time, money and energy on a target thousands of miles away you simply can not have the same degree of interaction and, of course, you did not fall in love with a picture did you? Your point might be valid if you were a stay at home sort of guy with low levels of interaction, but that is not me, nor is it normal among those who are actively dating. But I would stil be saying that your chances of meeting the right woman fall through the floor if you do not meet a lot of them!

[Bruno]

Well this microscopic country just bought the largest Russian steelmaker.

First, no one have buy the other... it is a association between Arcelor with Severstal... and Severstal is not the first russian group but the second... of course, the result is interesting, Severstal and Arcelor will form the first mondial group... final decision in June !

[tim 360]

Good topic BC. A reasonable and prudent man with all his faculties intact would have to agree with Andrew and JB that for an average American guy there are many hurdles to overcome if he is thinking of marrying an FSU girl. It requires a good investment in time, energy, vacation time and money. There is more,  but let it rest there and consider how many resources are required. How many trips alone can be daunting. One can have the best laid plans of mice and men and still go bust. One can feel he is a lucky "one week wonder", only to find later he has a unending nightmare.

That said, it is not so difficult for an average working American guy to marry a girl from the FSU. I know 3 couples where it is working out just fine and the guy did not have all those mentioned hurdles. How? They all married an FSU girl who was already here. Who already had a good understanding of the USA, all spoke fluent English, understood the culture and all the girls had jobs. And all had visas.

One girl is very smart and she came over on (as she calls it) the Citibank visa, her employer took care of everything. And she married a friend of mine also in finance and I should add he is a bit above an average guy. Ages: She's 28 and he is 39. They spent a fulltime 2 years getting to know each other.

The other 2 couples are much younger and kids. Happy newlyweds. One girl came over on a 6 month work visa, met a guy she liked,  things got serious and she came back for another 6 months and 3 months later they got married. Shes 23 and he is 29. They are very happy and he makes no more than $30K, just young average working guys. She's going back to college and she works too. They had over 1 year of fulltime facetime.

The last girl came over on student visa and it is all pretty much the same as the previous girl except she and hubby are a couple years older with a 7 year age gap.

What is common thread? All these couples had the time to know each other and these average guys did not have to encounter all the hurdles previously mentioned. And they had the time to be in love.

It can be done. There are more smart FSU girls here on good visas every year.

[Turboguy]

jb,  "However, in this case, and I think we are talking about the same case, there are times when we must realize that a RW wife is not for everybody."

I can't argue with that a bit, but I don't think it is for you or anyone here to decide who is eligible for a Russian woman and who is not.  

Andrewfin,  I think you would do a lot better if you thought less about us "not being equal"  I have always tried to think of people as equal but different.  Yes you may be smarter than some but they will have assets that offset that.  You might be better eductated and have other good points.  I am sure like everyone you have your failings as well.  I see some great qualities in you and some areas where you could use some improvement.  I know you think you are better than most but I still think we are all equal.

Frankly I think 'the person who is the same case we are talking about" has more chance of making a FSU woman happy than some of the people a gal could find with a lot higher income which seems to be one of your concerns about that person jb.  

I have seen FSU women who were not going to be happy with a guy with an average income.  I have also had two tell me they were not interested in, and would not accept a man with a high income.  They wanted an average life with a good man.   Just like we are all different, they are all different too with their own ideas of happiness and their own goals.

I can agree that a RW is not right for everyone.  It is a good point and I liked some of BC's comments and Ken's and PeeWee's  

I really think PG and Larisa are something that has been hashed around all that can be.  Frankly if Larisa is not in his future, I hope he finds a good gal and that they both are happy.  I think when he finds the right one, she will have someone who will bend over backwards to make her happy.  That is exactly what a lot of FSU women are looking for.

[Jumper]

That said, it is not so difficult for an average working American guy to marry a girl from the FSU. I know 3 couples where it is working out just fine and the guy did not have all those mentioned hurdles. How? They all married an FSU girl who was already here. Who already had a good understanding of the USA, all spoke fluent English, understood the culture and all the girls had jobs. And all had visas.

tim great point-
I dated a local FSU woman,here on a work visa,
we parted as friends but it certainly sparked  my interest in RW.
(shes now married to a local guy, she met on the job)

TG- your last bit is funny for personally..
my wife was intially not interested in me , as a husband,
because of my job and income.
She had plenty of other suiters more in the range of what she was expecting..in a spouse (completely understandable)
Her mother insisted I was a much better man and husband material, and she should at least continue dating me.....
poor girl should have known better than to listen to her mother! LOL


Not to bring poor PG into this,(he has taken far to much bashing)
 but yes without the extended time dating her and knowing her family well , "we " wouldnt have happened.
but i certainly recognize that every situation in vastly different!
what worked for me
( persistence(most RW admire the trait ) and being a decent and *cough* charming guy, may not work for you)

[Muj]

Tim,

Your examples show interesting similarities an am bringing a rw to the USA on a visa with the exception of the time consideration.  Interestingly your friends had no prior experience of Russian culture and did not date scores of other Russian women for a successful marriage.  However, I'm sure the husbands very much embrace the cultures of their wives.  We can safely say they married the first Russian woman they met, classify them as a one week wonder.  Obviously the success depends also on the woman's desire to learn of her new country, live in her new country, and be happy in her new country.  Happiness with her husband and in the marriage of course primary.  
So the major difference in providing a fiancee visa vs Tim's examples is the ability of the man and woman to acclimate his fiancee/wife to her new culture.  In Tim's example the women already possess a working knowledge of the US.
In all cases (ours and Tim's post) couples must marry for her stay in the US.  
In all cases the couples experience an extended period of learning of each other.  The fiancee visa takes almost a year from the time we meet until she arrives.  The year may involve multiple visits and much contact.  Still sooooooooooooo long.
In all cases the couples were separated for extended periods.