Minsk, round two

[Boethius]

First, there's the 5 billion used over the years (Your tax dollars) to NGO's to work for regime change. As times went by, the political situation change. Russia became more powerful and a more Direct approach was used to get the regime change going. But that was not enough, a co-operation was needed, and given, by the EU, who, as good servants to The Empire, did as they were told and put on sanctions and to hell With their own economical interests in doing business With Russia. USA lost nothing as they have little business With Russia.

That's the problem With you Americans; you only see a problem from Your side because you think it's the ONLY side.

Deep concern? Yeah, it's so deep that Washington is dying to escalate the war in Ukraine by sending in weapons made in USA to kill Europeans. Do you guys in here really want to support a policy that might send us all into WW3?

That $5 billion was used for Chernobyl, to fund schools, to fund think tanks.  I keep reading pro Russians refer to this money as being used to destabilize the country,  the the exact opposite is true.   There is a reason why Ukraine, particularly in the early 2000's, had a vibrant and free press.  That largely disappeared under Yanukovych.  So please give me examples of how these funds were used to the detriment of Ukrainians.


As for weapons, it was Ukraine asking for weapons.  You seem to ignore the fact that Russian weapons are being used, supplied by your hero Putin, while Ukrainian soldiers are stuck with weapons from the time of the collapse of the USSR.    While no one wants war, countries in that situation want to be able to defend themselves.   Or perhaps you approve of Russia undermining what Ukrainians want for their future?

[Boethius]

History should have told Ukraine this day was coming.  It should have used that $5 billion not to build structures of a free society, but to arm itself to the teeth.

[Boethius]

From Bernard-Henri Levi, again-

Here, the middle of the city had been the target of a Smerch rocket fired from a distance of more than 30 miles in the early afternoon.

Here, and within a radius of about 900 yards, the giant antipersonnel
weapon released its rain of minirockets, killing 16 people and wounding 65.

And here I discover another Poroshenko: no longer the military leader from the plane; still less the billionaire president that I accompanied to the Élysée Palace a year ago; but a ravaged man, livid in the floodlights illuminating the scene. He listens as survivors recount the hellish whistle of the rocket, the women returning from the market who were mowed down by the deluge of pellets, the panic in the streets as people rushed for shelter, tripping over bodies, the brave mother who covered her child with her body and was killed, the arrival of rescuers, the anguish that another rocket could follow.
“What a disaster," he groans.

He repeats it several times: “What a disaster . . . We are kilometers from the front. There's no one here but civilians. This isn't war—it's slaughter. This isn't a war crime; it's a crime against humanity."

And then, standing at the edge of the crater formed by a rocket that had failed to explode, Poroshenko—suddenly immense and strangely colossal because of the bulletproof vest that his aides had him don under his jacket—points at the engine of death as if it were his personal enemy and adds: “A monster of that size, outlawed by the Geneva Convention, the separatists don't have those. That could only be the Russians."

He repeats, a grim smile freezing his features. “The Russians. When I think that the Russians will be there in Minsk tomorrow and will have the audacity to talk about peace . . ."

A doctor, his arms bare even doctor, his arms bare even though the temperature is well below zero, approaches to escort us to the nearby hospital emergency room.The president lingers at the bed of each of the injured, sometimes asking questions, sometimes offering sympathy, sometimes, with the hardiest, trying to joke. I think I even see him give a quiet blessing to an old woman as she hands him the fragments that had been removed from her legs, saying, “Here, Petro, you give these to Putin. Tell him they're from Zoya in Kramatorsk."

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/bernard-henri-levy-on-the-road-to-putlandia-2-380716.html

[Muzh]

That $5 billion was used for Chernobyl, to fund schools, to fund think tanks.  I keep reading pro Russians refer to this money as being used to destabilize the country,  the the exact opposite is true.  There is a reason why Ukraine, particularly in the early 2000's, had a vibrant and free press.  That largely disappeared under Yanukovych.  So please give me examples of how these funds were used to the detriment of Ukrainians.

Well, hello!!!


If those billions didn't go to a vibrant and free press, Ukraine would still be under the shoe of Putin minding their own business as the good serfs you find in Russia.


Do you see any actual unrest in Russia?


A state run media is the reason for that!


Geez, plebes should know their places.

[Muzh]

History should have told Ukraine this day was coming.  It should have used that $5 billion not to build structures of a free society, but to arm itself to the teeth.

I told my wife and outlaws this day was coming about 10 years ago.


Pshaw, we are peaceful people, was their response.


You just don't understand. It will never happen.

Yep

[Doll]

History should have told Ukraine this day was coming.  It should have used that $5 billion not to build structures of a free society, but to arm itself to the teeth.

What "history"?

[Boethius]

Go look through the history books at how many times Russia has invaded Ukraine.

[Muzh]

Go look through the history books at how many times Russia has invaded Ukraine.

Without looking at history books, I know of two times, not counting this one.

[Doll]

Go look through the history books at how many times Russia has invaded Ukraine.

just tell me

[Doll]

Without looking at history books, I know of two times, not counting this one.

when

[Muzh]

when

I know of Catherine the horse whisperer and Lenin the short.

[BillyB]

History should have told Ukraine this day was coming.  It should have used that $5 billion not to build structures of a free society, but to arm itself to the teeth.

Some people think the more Ukraine is armed, the more Russia will escalate and arming them is not the solution.


In 2005, then Senator Obama, promoted a bill that secured American dollars in liquidating 15,000 tons of ammunition, 400,000 small arms and 1,000 anti-aircraft missiles in Ukraine to make the world a safer place according to the article below. That could be one of many reasons he's hesitant on spending American dollars to re-arm them. If providing more arms to Ukraine is going to get more people killed, then Obama saved lives!


Hand over your guns and nukes Ukraine. Trust us, we're recommending this for your own good!

[BillyB]

I guess dishonestly is built into our way of life. 

"Trust but verify" Reagan once said. Gathering intelligence can help nations learn if other nations will honor and meet their obligations, among other things even if those nations are our friends. Maybe Merkel learned from her intelligence agency that Obama is actually getting serious about sending weapons to Ukraine which is counter productive to Germany's goals? Publically Obama's talk has gotten tougher but what he says in private calls are more important. The cease fire was violated for many months after beginning Sep 2014 yet Merkel didn't take much action. All of a sudden Merkel felt a need to rush to Putin to convince him to more talks and then she rushes to Washington to have a face to face with Obama and stall him before the Minsk talks begin. Did German intelligence tip her with some info? I'd put money on it. Although America is a friend, her duty is to Germany first and doing what benefits Germany is what she's going to do. I'd also bet America is trying to intercept Putin's calls and that Russian spy ship currently sailing along Florida's coast is try to get into the head of Jeb Bush who may be the next prez.

[mendeleyev]

I know of Catherine the horse whisperer and Lenin the short.

Muzh, Catherine wasn't the only horse-whisperer in Russia!



This may explain why some of the advice he receives smells like horse poop.

[mendeleyev]

The non cease-fire leads the news in the MendeleyevJournal:

Here are some of the stories making news...

Despite new "cease-fire" agreements, the fighting continues in Eastern Ukraine:

Shelling has continued around the Ukrainian town of Debaltseve. The small town is a vital transportation hub for the region, and despite promises to abide by the latest cease-fire agreement, Russian terrorists say that they have every right to continue battling for the town. War is hell. Apparently it is also never-ending. While the BBC has been busy filming the withdrawal of Ukrainian heavy arms, the Russian side has apparently forgotten to mark their calendars.

Russian terrorists have continued shelling the Ukrainian town of Debaltseve. Why not obey the agreed upon cease-fire? DNR leaders say that because they previously claimed it for themselves, they will continue to fight until the town is conquered.

OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw told the BBC that Russian terrorists have denied access by international monitors to Debaltseve.




Another Russian "Humanitarian Convoy" enters Ukraine:

Hundreds of Russian trucks claiming to be filled with humanitarian supplies entered Ukraine on Sunday, 15 February, and again the contradictions were astounding. The Russians declared that the International Red Cross was participating. That promoted the International Committee of the Red Cross to disavow the claim, saying they had no knowledge of the convoy. The Russians claimed that Ukrainian inspectors checked the trucks and approved the border crossing. In spite of massive TV coverage by Russian television, Ukrainian inspectors did not have the opportunity to inspect the trucks. The convoy entered rebel-held territory. Journalists following the convoy were allowed to select one truck each for a spot inspection. The rest of the trucks were off-limits.



The convoy was split for Donetsk and Luhansk and entered via the "Donetsk" and "Matveev Kurgan" checkpoints. Journalists counted 176 vehicles, although the Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations put the number at 150. Ministry documents noted that most of the loads were non-humanitarian in nature, listing lubricants, printing paper and textbooks for the bulk of the trucks. Oleg Voronov of the Russian Emergency Situations Ministry staff told TACC Russian news agency that textbooks and teaching materials were delivered to integrate the Donetsk National University curriculum with that of Moscow State University.

Russia recently banned the use of older school history texts in Crimea, and substituted new history texts from Moscow which explain how Crimea was "illegally" given to Ukraine in the 1950s, and how the recent annexation of Crimea by Russia was therefore justified.


Complaints of USS Cole in Black Sea:

On February 8, the USS Cole entered Black Sea waters, and in a statement from fleet headquarters, the warship was sent by  the United States to "ensure peace and tranquility in the region." Naturally Russia has protested, citing the Montreux Convention which states that warships of non-Black Sea nations cannot stay in Black Sea waters for longer than 21 days. The Russians further complained that the USA has sent a total of nine warships into territorial waters in the past 12 months.

The Montreux Convention is the 1936 agreement granting Turkey control over the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles. The agreement regulates the transit of naval warships via the Black Sea. Oddly, the Russian complaints fail to mention the charges by Turkey of many Russian violations of the convention.

Russia seems to have forgotten about the Budapest Memorandum, in which Russia, the United States, and several other nations pledged to respect and protect the territorial sovereignty of Ukraine.
 

[JayH]

Some people think the more Ukraine is armed, the more Russia will escalate and arming them is not the solution.


In 2005, then Senator Obama, promoted a bill that secured American dollars in liquidating 15,000 tons of ammunition, 400,000 small arms and 1,000 anti-aircraft missiles in Ukraine to make the world a safer place according to the article below. That could be one of many reasons he's hesitant on spending American dollars to re-arm them. If providing more arms to Ukraine is going to get more people killed, then Obama saved lives!


Hand over your guns and nukes Ukraine. Trust us, we're recommending this for your own good!

BB--  this is a major point why the US has a moral obligation to assist.Obama himself visited Ukraine at the time and oversaw much of this.
Ukraine behaved-- and is still behaving-- as a good world citizen ie  a country that  desires to be part of the civilised world.
Russia on the other hand-- has gone and is going out of it's way to be a pariah state- a renegade.
Along with the Budapest Agreement and the huge amount of armaments destroyed with US leading the complicity to disarm Ukraine-- in my view that created a moral obligation( if not a legal one) to assist Ukraine to defend and MAINTAIN it's sovereignty.
That help is desperately needed now.

[JayH]

It is easy to see the short-term imperative of the deal agreed in Minsk on Feb. 12 for Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko: His troops have been on the retreat since New Year's, as Russia has inserted more forces and equipment into eastern Ukraine.


Minsk Peace Is an Illusion

Above all, the West should redouble its support to Ukraine — not only financial and technical, but also military. It is in Europe's interests that Ukraine should be the stable democracy that the Maidan protesters wanted it to be — and with a neighbor like Russia, that can never be guaranteed without robust defenses.

The EU should let go of its illusions. It has spent two decades trying to develop a rules-based relationship with Russia. It is time to accept that its efforts have failed. Now the West has to invest in protecting itself and those who aspire to join it.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/minsk-peace-is-an-illusion/515934.html

[fathertime]

"Trust but verify" Reagan once said. Gathering intelligence can help nations learn if other nations will honor and meet their obligations, among other things even if those nations are our friends. Maybe Merkel learned from her intelligence agency that Obama is actually getting serious about sending weapons to Ukraine which is counter productive to Germany's goals? Publically Obama's talk has gotten tougher but what he says in private calls are more important. The cease fire was violated for many months after beginning Sep 2014 yet Merkel didn't take much action. All of a sudden Merkel felt a need to rush to Putin to convince him to more talks and then she rushes to Washington to have a face to face with Obama and stall him before the Minsk talks begin. Did German intelligence tip her with some info? I'd put money on it. Although America is a friend, her duty is to Germany first and doing what benefits Germany is what she's going to do. I'd also bet America is trying to intercept Putin's calls and that Russian spy ship currently sailing along Florida's coast is try to get into the head of Jeb Bush who may be the next prez.

Well if leaders like Obama/Merkel are relying on intercepted private phone calls to make their foreign policy decisions, I'd say that is mistake.  Countries can also gain major competitive advantage by intercepting calls and possibly knowing what a country is going to do before it does it...this is where the 3rd world nations could have a legit grievance as it could be seen as a way to keep them down.


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

History should have told Ukraine this day was coming.  It should have used that $5 billion not to build structures of a free society, but to arm itself to the teeth.

really?

How exactly was this predictable?

[Boethius]

Because in Ukraine's history, Russia has invaded Ukraine numerous times.  Its leaders also restricted the use of Ukrainian.

[lordtiberius]

Because in Ukraine's history, Russia has invaded Ukraine numerous times.  Its leaders also restricted the use of Ukrainian.

And the 70 years of Soviet identity created a common polity.  Bilingualism, family travel, visa free, and $ 15 Billion in trade every year, not to mention poll after poll showed that most Ukrainians considered Russia to be a friendly country . . . yeah, I guess we should have all seen this coming . . .

Without that civil society spending, we wouldn't have a Euromaidan which has made Ukraine a European country

[mendeleyev]

And the 70 years of Soviet identity created a common polity.

Only on the surface, LT.

Visit the Russian Far East and speak to non-ethnic Russians about the Soviet period. Look at all those post-Soviet republics who dashed into NATO as fast as their little feet could propel them.

Visit the former Warsaw Pact nations and ask about Soviet polices, which placed Russia/Russians on a pedestal above all others.

The Soviet Union was a giant prison, but never a "melting pot."

[Doll]

Because in Ukraine's history, Russia has invaded Ukraine numerous times.  Its leaders also restricted the use of Ukrainian.

When?

[Boethius]

1686, 1709, 1722, 1724, 1764-65, 1775, 1783, 1786, 1790's, 1855-56, 1919-1922.  That's just off the top of my head.

[Photo Guy]

If that's all off the top of your head, I'd say you know your stuff!