Ukraine Can Win

[Doll]

   .Do you think the Russian people generally would be happy to hear so many are being killed? Do you think they care about Ukrainian lives being lost and destroyed?

They care about both/
Jay, what you post here is what you THINK. I am Russian, I was there recently, talked to many people, I talk to them now (Skype, phone and emals). Nobody wants deaths.

[lordtiberius]

40 KIA & 100 WIA since the truce.  Another Billy B (FT) win win for Putin.

Jay isn't angry but I am angry.  You can't be angry with rose colored lenses in.  I am not angry at Doll's boyfriend but at his buddies in Paris and Berlin.

An A-10 will be scrap iron against a Bug.  Jay and Doug know this.  Especially Doug, he is a weapons engineer.

Keep drinking that Kool Aid.  FT & Billy B, faster, faster for the mad king of Moscow.

[Doll]

40 KIA & 100 WIA since the truce.  Another Billy B (FT) win win for Putin.

Jay isn't angry but I am angry.  You can't be angry with rose colored lenses in.  I am not angry at Doll's boyfriend but at his buddies in Paris and Berlin.

An A-10 will be scrap iron against a Bug.  Jay and Doug know this.  Especially Doug, he is a weapons engineer.

Keep drinking that Kool Aid.  FT & Billy B, faster, faster for the mad king of Moscow.

what are you smoking?

[Belvis]

Can Ukraine win? It depends, what victory means.
The photo to think about.  The future of Ukraine is undefined in the fog. The present  looks at you through rebel  tank gun.

[Doll]

It also depends what we mean by "Ukraine".

[lordtiberius]

It depends, what victory means.

What does that mean for you, Belvis?

Also what does victory mean for Putin?

[lordtiberius]

It also depends what we mean by "Ukraine".

You see who you are talking to friends?  Doll yuk yuks about indiscriminate murder?  Is this not the ideology of genocide?

[mendeleyev]

It also depends what we mean by "Ukraine".

That, Doll, is really what this war is all about. As I posted earlier, the Kremlin fails to view Ukraine as an independent and sovereign country. That makes liars of the Kremlin, because for years they accepted Ukrainian independence, conducted trade with them, and paid them leases for bases in Crimea. All along, however, they were waiting for a chance to reverse all those years, and when Maidan happened the snakes struck.

Sad.

Will Russia ever grow up and learn?

[TomT]

This is a topic skirted in many different threads.I have asserted for over 12 months that Ukraine can win...

How are your winners doing, Jay?

[lordtiberius]

That, Doll, is really what this war is all about. As I posted earlier, the Kremlin fails to view Ukraine as an independent and sovereign country. That makes liars of the Kremlin, because for years they accepted Ukrainian independence, conducted trade with them, and paid them leases for bases in Crimea. All along, however, they were waiting for a chance to reverse all those years, and when Maidan happened the snakes struck.

Sad.

Will Russia ever grow up and learn?

What is Russia's next move?

[Doll]

[AkMike]

That picture must have been taken before obammy found out what a LIAR that the Huilomeister is. 

[Belvis]

What does that mean for you, Belvis?

Also what does victory mean for Putin?

Whatever will be outcome both sides call it the victory, at least true for Ukraine side. Victory for Putin means Ukraine continues to be non-NATO state, and Donbass gets autonomy to the extent that locals agree with.

As I posted earlier, the Kremlin fails to view Ukraine as an independent and sovereign country. That makes liars of the Kremlin, because for years they accepted Ukrainian independence, conducted trade with them, and paid them leases for bases in Crimea. All along, however, they were waiting for a chance to reverse all those years, and when Maidan happened the snakes struck.

Double standards in full play. Did Iraq was an independent and sovereign country? Do Syria now an independent and sovereign country? Did US try to keep former Yugoslavia in its borders? Did US put efforts to conserve SU?  It's not the aim for US, US  pursues their own interests as well as Russia in relations with other states. Russia has taken advantage in Ukraine conflict but not created it. US are also using the conflict, mainly to weaken Europe, but have less leverages than Russia in this region. World is not perfect.

As a matter of fact US is not law abiding country, they're law-making country. Russia is trying to follow this path to keep power balance. OK, other countries must abide international laws

[fathertime]

Whatever will be outcome both sides call it the victory, at least true for Ukraine side. Victory for Putin means Ukraine continues to be non-NATO state, and Donbass gets autonomy to the extent that locals agree with.

 

Sounds win/win'ish.   

Double standards in full play. Did Iraq was an independent and sovereign country? Do Syria now an independent and sovereign country? Did US try to keep former Yugoslavia in its borders? Did US put efforts to conserve SU?  It's not the aim for US, US  pursues their own interests as well as Russia in relations with other states. Russia has taken advantage in Ukraine conflict but not created it. US are also using the conflict, mainly to weaken Europe, but have less leverages than Russia in this region. World is not perfect.

As a matter of fact US is not law abiding country, they're law-making country. Russia is trying to follow this path to keep power balance. OK, other countries must abide international laws

I agree with your points here.  The double standard may not matter much to the country on the upside of it...but to other countries it matters.


Fathertime!   

[jone]

Whatever will be outcome both sides call it the victory, at least true for Ukraine side. Victory for Putin means Ukraine continues to be non-NATO state, and Donbass gets autonomy to the extent that locals agree with.

Double standards in full play. Did Iraq was an independent and sovereign country? Do Syria now an independent and sovereign country? Did US try to keep former Yugoslavia in its borders? Did US put efforts to conserve SU?  It's not the aim for US, US  pursues their own interests as well as Russia in relations with other states. Russia has taken advantage in Ukraine conflict but not created it. US are also using the conflict, mainly to weaken Europe, but have less leverages than Russia in this region. World is not perfect.

As a matter of fact US is not law abiding country, they're law-making country. Russia is trying to follow this path to keep power balance. OK, other countries must abide international laws

There is no balance of power.  Putin is trying to create one.   

[Boethius]

Sounds win/win'ish.    

Except for Ukraine.

[lordtiberius]

Whatever will be outcome both sides call it the victory, at least true for Ukraine side. Victory for Putin means Ukraine continues to be non-NATO state, and Donbass gets autonomy to the extent that locals agree with.

Russia already has that now especially when you have folks (like some on this forum) who want to write off Crimea and Donbass.  So I guess you are going to declare victory and go home?

Belvis, your problem is the same problem that the German people had with Hitler from 29 September 1938 to 2 February 1943.  Germany enjoyed spectacular successes in conquering Europe.  Hitler through his oratorical skills had been able to mobilize a defeated nation to Alexandrian military conquest - a united Europe.  The problem was that they were always one victory away from final victory.

Now your President with his oratorical skills has mobilized his nation (ish) to defeat a "non-nation" nation with similar success.  You're just one victory away from final victory - peace and an 1,000 year Reich  Ruskimir.

Beware of an old man in a hurry.
- Michael Dobbs

[JayH]

Can Ukraine win? It depends, what victory means.

A win or victory for Ukraine is restoring it's territory,it's sovereign boundaries.
That means removing Russian and Russian influence over Ukraine-it means having the free people of Ukraine having the  democratic rights to decide Ukraine's future.
All that means is that Putin should get out-- and stay out-- an overwhelming number of people voted for a free Ukraine-not a Russian one.

[JayH]

They care about both/
Jay, what you post here is what you THINK. I am Russian, I was there recently, talked to many people, I talk to them now (Skype, phone and emals). Nobody wants deaths.

You don't want deaths? then why are you rationalising the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

What I think? Sure--what I think has come from what I have seen &  learnt and hear every day!  I was in Ukraine recently, I talk to them now (Skype, phone and emails,other places). I am also certain that my contacts number far more on any given day than yours--in addition-- they have free access to most media-without it being adulterated with Kremlin lies and ridiculousness.  I get first hand details-- plus some from very close to first hand details-- so if your point was that your information is better than mine-- I don't think so.Your posts here prove how little you really understand.
Nobody wants deaths? You have had a strange way of showing it-- you have shown no empathy or compassion for those caught in this crisis-instead you come here supporting  a criminal-- and his kleptocratic regime.Not very smart at all Doll!

[JayH]

I can't really leave the withdrawal from Debaltsevo   without commenting. It looked extremely bleak as Ukrainian troops attempted to fight their way out --many had said they would stay and fight until the end.many had not eaten for 5 days or more-- and in retreat were forced to walk as there was no other means of transport.
No death can be considered  a good thing--but it seems that in relative terms the deaths were minimised-with large numbers wounded. It will take time to see more accurate numbers-- but it seems like a "smaller" disaster than Ilovaisk

Poroshenko of Debaltseve
[/b]
Left  2475 Ukrainian military.

President of Ukraine Poroshenko said he decided on the withdrawal of troops from the area Debaltseve to save the life of the Ukrainian military. "The military did their job. Showed the world that Ukraine keeps the peace agreements. Motivation my decision - to save the life of Ukrainian military and an operation that preserves the best potential of the Armed Forces of Ukraine", - said the president after povernenennya zone of ATO, speaking at a meeting of National Security and Defence.
Більше читайте тут:

[calmissile]

http://americaninkyiv.blogspot.hu/

[JayH]

http://americaninkyiv.blogspot.hu/

SHAME THROUGHOUT THE WEST FOR WHAT WE HAVE BROUGHT THE UKRAINIANS - MCCAIN

"This is a ridiculous piece of paper did nothing to prevent the death of dozens of new Ukrainian soldiers and putting new sovereign Ukrainian territory Putin and his cronies," - said in a statement about the events in the Senate Debaltseve.
Senators harshly criticized the actions of Western leaders, including US President Barack Obama, who, according to them, all continues to "slowly consider" providing military assistance to Ukraine at a time when Russian and pro-Russian terrorists kill Ukrainian soldiers.
"Putin has achieved its military objectives Debaltseve and we fear that Western leaders, rather than admit the harsh reality of Russian actions, will allow Putin to continue to claim that it promotes peace," - said McCain and Graham.
They stressed that the Ukrainians have the will to resist aggression and do not ask anyone to fight for them. They are only asking for democracy advocates to give them the means to protect their country from attack the aggressor. "Shame on us for what we have failed them," - said McCain and Graham. Earlier, McCain harshly criticized the new Minsk Agreement. At the same time, Poroshenko urged the US to provide promised assistance.
http://daily.com.ua/world/19-02-2015205043

[JayH]

More details of the withdrawal.It seems that all things considered that they have done as much as they could. Already the military command has changed.


Escape from Debaltseve: Ukraine's soldiers tell how they got out alive

LUHANSKE, Ukraine – An endless line of Ukrainian soldiers stretched out along the road approaching Artemivsk, the closest city to Debaltseve, in Donetsk Oblast. Some of them were walking, others sat atop of armored vehicles that were leaving the city that could have become their trap after months of bitter fights.

Their chief commander President Petro Poroshenko claimed that he personally gave an order to soldiers to retreat the night before, on Feb. 17. But soldiers said they were leaving anyway.

“If we stayed there it would definitely be either captivity or death," Yuriy Prekharia, first lieutenant of the 40th Brigade, told the Kyiv Post.

[JayH]

Not that meany here need move evidence--but this is hardly a piece of equipment that the Russians would hand out.
Another story today--explained how Russian military trot out locals after dressing them appropriately!--to talk to media ! No end to the ridiculous premise.
I asked previously if anyone can comment on this Russian hardware capability.

Most advanced Russian anti-aircraft system is in Donbas

The British Foreign and Commonwealth Office on February 18 tweeted what it described as Russia's most advanced anti-aircraft artillery system - the Pantsir-S1, also known as the Greyhound SA-22 - seen in Luhansk and Donetsk regions. The 'infographic' is accompanied by a timeline of photos taken in east Ukraine this month.

[JayH]

Moving video of retreat.A very brave girl doing the reporting.
They came back from the ATO-Retreating from Debaltseve:
Published on 19 Feb 2015
Residents of the city Vasil'kov met consolidated military detachment of the Air Forces of Ukraine, who returned from the ATO. "The very big problem was - water and bread" - said one of the fighters Public Dmitry. Greeted fighters locals, administration, military, relatives. "Thank those volunteers who gave them warm clothes and food "- have said Public fighter Larissa. Soldiers arrived at the rotation in part, but say they are ready to return to the front at any moment, "People out there who are on reclaimed areas is simple that we nepokydaly them. They are hoping that still will be peace in those areas. A peace came to need something to do this "- said Dmitry Public fighter. / Nikita Myekyenzin