Ukraine's private "volunteer" militias

[Boethius]

Here is an old article I pulled on the Association Agreement.  This is what triggered Euromaidan.  Not the CIA.
http://www.dw.de/the-pressure-on-yanukovych-increases/a-17257434

[AkMike]

NEWS Flash Steamer..

 Bandera died in 1959. He's not in the government..

[Boethius]

And never was.    But, Western Ukraine fought the Red Army until the mid 1950's, and Bandera was killed by the NKVD.  He was a pretty ruthless individual (though far less so than anyone on the commie side), but a lot of UPA's atrocities are blamed on him, at times when he was in a German concentration camp.  There is no evidence he knew of the atrocities, or that he ordered them to be carried out.

[BillyB]

Western Ukraine fought the Red Army until the mid 1950's

My wife is from Ivano Frankivsk which is located far West Ukraine for those who don't know. She said her older relatives told her that Nazi Germans were friendly with the citizens of West Ukraine and even gave candy to children during WW2. It's not that West Ukrainians were Nazis that brought them and Germans together, it's that they had a common enemy in Stalin and Communism.


Some Westerners are wondering why some east Ukrainians and Russians are hellbent on insisting Ukraine has lots of dangerous Nazis running around trying to kill ethnic Russians. Got to look at history for the clue but to say Nazis today are trying to hurt ethnic Russians is pure propaganda to get Russian people to back Putin's actions.

[The Natural]

Please explain this section of your post.

"The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) 

This act requires any person or organization (U.S. or foreign) that is an “agent of a foreign principal” to register with the Justice Department and to disclose the foreign principal for which the agent works. Foreign principals can include governments, political parties, a person or organization outside the United States (except U.S. citizens), and any entity organized under the laws of a foreign country or having its principal place of business in a foreign country. FARA requires people acting as agents of foreign principals under certain circumstances to make periodic public disclosure of their relationship with the foreign principal, as well as activities, receipts, and disbursements in support of those activities

http://www.humanrights.gov/fact-sheet-non-governmental-organizations-ngos-in-the-united-states.html

" The original FARA was passed in 1938 just before the outbreak of war in Europe and was intended to monitor the activities of front organizations being directed by the German and Italian governments."

 http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2015/02/03/514997finding-the-foreign-agents/

You need to understand more about the USA before you go stating things like this. 

That one was from memory. Something Paul Craig Roberts said. I suppose he too don't know squat about USA. It must be a miracle that he made it into the Reagan government!

I think Bo adequately expressed my feelings about the CIA's involvement.

You two certainly are similar in Your requests to me to dig up References for my opinions, just to dismiss it in Your next replies. That always happens here. In fact, I can't remember one instance where a Reference was accepted by the opposition here on RWD. I don't mind disagreeing or even being in a small minority on RWD. What I do mind is wasting a lot of time doing the above, when it can be found by anyone who really care about the matter of hand, instead of just trying to win an argument.

[Boethius]

There is no evidence the CIA funded Euromaidan.
 
As for your foreign NGO's, from your link -

The United States hosts many foreign NGOs that do important and valuable work in our country. Foreign NGOs can register in the U.S. by filing a simple form as a non-profit entity. Some operate as non-partisan foundations, while others are affiliated with foreign political parties and operate as think tanks and liaisons to U.S. organizations concerned with foreign policy. These foundations organize programs for their respective politicians when they come to the United States, and organize conferences, youth exchanges, and fellowships/scholarships.

They also provide funding to and conduct joint projects with American NGOs. Funded entirely by foreign governments, these foreign party institutes do not have special restrictions on their activities in the United States, can conduct meetings and publish materials freely, and are not required to provide reports to other U.S. federal government agencies, provided they register and file tax returns according to the requirements described below.
 
As Secretary Clinton said in Krakow in July 2010, “We welcome [foreign] organizations in the belief that they make our nation stronger and deepen relationships between America and the rest of the world. And it is in that same spirit that the United States provides funding to foreign civil society organizations that are engaged in important work in their own countries. And we will continue this practice, and we would like to do more of it in partnership with other democracies."

 
The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA)

 
This act requires any person or organization (U.S. or foreign) that is an “agent of a foreign principal” to register with the Justice Department and to disclose the foreign principal for which the agent works. Foreign principals can include governments, political parties, a person or organization outside the United States (except U.S. citizens), and any entity organized under the laws of a foreign country or having its principal place of business in a foreign country. FARA requires people acting as agents of foreign principals under
certain circumstances to make periodic public disclosure of their relationship with the foreign principal, as well as activities, receipts, and disbursements in support of those activities.
 
Some governments have misinterpreted FARA as restricting the ability of civil society to register and operate. On the contrary, FARA does not impose a tax, nor does it set a cap on foreign funding that an organization can receive. FARA covers all "persons," including individuals, corporations, and associations. FARA also includes a number of exceptions, including for persons whose activities are in "furtherance of bona fide religious, scholastic, academic, or scientific pursuits or of the fine arts." FARA also exempts from registration
other NGO activities, such as certain solicitations of funds for medical aid, or for "food and clothing to relieve human suffering."
 
NGO Relations on the Local and International Levels

 
Once an NGO has registered according to the requirements summarized earlier, the U.S. government does not interfere with how the NGO accomplishes its purposes. NGOs are free to recruit participants for their organizations as they wish, and need not provide notification to any government agency about its membership, activities, or outreach. Like other U.S. organizations and companies, U.S. NGOs must refrain from working with governments or individuals under U.S. sanctions, as well as with groups designated as foreign terrorist
organizations, but otherwise, they are free to collaborate with foreign NGOs or foreign governments to achieve their purposes. There are no regulations that restrict U.S. NGOs from attending conferences abroad, finding donors overseas, or performing work internationally.

When you can show that US officials have raided foreign NGO's offices and taken documents, or refused to allow NGO's to register, you can speak of an equivalency.  Until then, it does not exist.
 
BTW, Russian (Kremlin controlled) media often accuses foreign NGO's of pushing an "American agenda".  The US government does not do this to foreign NGO's in the United States.

[Boethius]

You two certainly are similar in Your requests to me to dig up References for my
opinions, just to dismiss it in Your next replies.

You have stated, unequivocally, that alll those opposing the terrorists rebels are "nazis" and "fascists", and that this includes the entire Ukraine's government.  I have asked you to name the fascists in Ukraine's government, and you have refused to do so.  I believe that is because there are no fascists in Ukraine's government, or not any with any power, in any event.

[jone]

Natural,

Why the vitriolic response?  You quote someone who puts a pro-Russian slant on things and you have natives of a country that you don't live in saying that this is the way things are.

FARA is not what you think it is.  You have historically ascribed way too much about life in the United States and agents of Neo Comms that are simply not true.  I live here.  I know.  I have traveled overseas and represented companies  here in the US that do business from overseas. 

It would be like me telling you how life is in Norway.  I don't subscribe to being such an expert.  In private conversations, which incidentally, I have treasured, you have learned that I am a middle leaning bon vivant of social events of many countries.  That doesn't mean that I have the inside scoop of how they work.

For the record, I have testified before Congress on various and sundry items.  I have been a talking head on the nationals news channels, Foxnews in particular.  The opinions that you voice here are so far out in left field about life in the United States and what the CIA does and doesn't do that it appears to those of us who read this forum that you have a conspiracy theory mentality. 

Read now the truth about NGOs in the United States.  Just so you know it is DIRECTLY from the website you quoted:

The United States hosts many foreign NGOs that do important and valuable work in our country. Foreign NGOs can register in the U.S. by filing a simple form as a non-profit entity. Some operate as non-partisan foundations, while others are affiliated with foreign political parties and operate as think tanks and liaisons to U.S. organizations concerned with foreign policy. These foundations organize programs for their respective politicians when they come to the United States, and organize conferences, youth exchanges, and fellowships/scholarships. They also provide funding to and conduct joint projects with American NGOs. Funded entirely by foreign governments, these foreign party institutes do not have special restrictions on their activities in the United States, can conduct meetings and publish materials freely, and are not required to provide reports to other U.S. federal government agencies, provided they register and file tax returns according to the requirements described below.

As Secretary Clinton said in Krakow in July 2010, “We welcome [foreign] organizations in the belief that they make our nation stronger and deepen relationships between America and the rest of the world. And it is in that same spirit that the United States provides funding to foreign civil society organizations that are engaged in important work in their own countries. And we will continue this practice, and we would like to do more of it in partnership with other democracies."

There is a great difference between NGOs in the United States and NGOs in Russia. 

Dammit BO - you eclipsed my link before I had the chance to post it!

[Steamer]

Bandera was not a Nazi.  UPA was initially a fascist party, but so were a lot of political movements at that time.  UPA eventually abandoned its fascist platform.  However, it was always very nationalistic.
 
Incidentally, Bandera was never a leader of Ukraine.  You may need to go back for some history lessons from non Russian sources.

So where did he get the snappy uniform from? The death head insignia on his hat is a nice touch.

[AkMike]

Does it matter? He's been dead for many years.

 He's hardy a part of this Russian invasion.

[Steamer]

Does it matter? He's been dead for many years.

 He's hardy a part of this Russian invasion.

The tradition lives on!

[Boethius]

So where did he get the snappy uniform from? The death head insignia on his hat is a nice touch.

I suggest that rather than relying on half baked (and inaccurate) resources, you read his history.  One of the best sources you will find in English is works by David Marples.
 

[Boethius]

The tradition lives on!

I will ask again.  Name all of these so called "fascists" with any power in Ukraine.
 

[Boethius]

BTW, Ukrainian attitudes toward Bandera are not overwhelmingly positive, percentage wise, and never have been, even in Western Ukraine.  UPA never had more than 30,000 members (and that estimate is at the highest range).

Just more "blah blah blah" from Ukrainophobes and Ukrainian haters.
 

[lordtiberius]

The tradition lives on!

Its also a Russian tradition of killing Ukrainian nationalists even in exile.  But I am sure in your mind it's perfectly defensible.

[Boethius]

Soviet, not Russian.   

[Muzh]

Fortunately, I  believe there are other members here that welcome viewpoints and information from the other side. But they keep silent because of the majority in here writing anti-Russian, anti-Putin, pro-war trash. One little contrarian comment, and they come Down on you like they were paid do do it. So I'll try and keep my responses to the fascist supporters to a minimum as I have other Things in life to do.

Heh, first you write anti-Ukrainian trash, but that's okay because you wrote it.


Now, IMHO what you are writing is pure NAZI-Russian propaganda. But that's okay because you wrote it.


Has it ever occurred to you that the majority here are just anti-stupid, the reason why they "come down on you?"

[Muzh]

Absolutely not. I am far from anything Close to the neocons. They believe in US hegemony over the globe (to the benefit of their Corporations). I believe in a multipolar world, a world where countries are Sovereign.

BULLSHIT!


Aren't you applauding Putler for invading a sovereign country on the guise that "because the US did it, Russia can" bullshit?

[Steamer]

I will ask again.  Name all of these so called "fascists" with any power in Ukraine.

I'm sorry but I didn't catch everyones name.













Photo removed as it changed reading pane - Anonmod

[Boethius]

You still didn't answer the question. 
 
Your first photo doesn't even represent what you claim it does.
 
As I have posted in the past, Tyahnybok is a former komsomol leader who wrote a PhD thesis on nationalism.  I don't believe this "nationalism" is anything more than a way to manipulate the masses.  Nevertheless, he has no power in the current Rada.  So, my question still stands.
 
I can post photos of KKK rallies in the US, or neo Nazi marches in the US, or across Europe.  The far right party of Le Pen garnered 25% of the vote on the last EU parliamentary elections, and there are far right parties represented in most European parliaments.  They all garner far more votes than do these parties in Ukraine.  As do neo Nazis in Russia.

You have failed to prove your point, which is, presumably, that Ukraine is over run by fascists (I assume that is your point).  Should I post photos of Russian neo Nazis to make the same (inaccurate) accusation about Russia?
 

[Steamer]

You still didn't answer the question. 

You have failed to prove your point, which is, presumably, that Ukraine is over run by fascists (I assume that is your point).  Should I post photos of Russian neo Nazis to make the same (inaccurate) accusation about Russia?

You claimed that there were NO fascists in power in Ukraine, Right Sector would disagree.

[Boethius]

Power means part of the ruling coalition.  There are two Praviy Sekhtor members in Parliament, AFAIK.  Neither is part of the ruling coalition, hence, they are not in power.

[BillyB]

How about this glorious leader of Ukraine ?  Stepan Bandera


                                             



                                           

About 30 minutes ago, I showed my wife this picture and her eyes lit up and said that man is a great hero of Ukraine. She said her mom and grandparents are Banderists and she considers herself a Banderist. I can assure you she's not a Nazi. My wife hasn't sent me to a concentration camp even though I'm a minority. I asked her why Stepan Banderas was wearing a Nazi uniform. She couldn't answer the question so I did some research on him. Here are some passages from the link below...


Bandera and his followers organized for the conflict that each felt and hoped was coming: The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. Rather naively, they saw Germany as an ally who would help free the Ukraine from the Bolshevist yoke. In early 1941, many OUN members began to train under the Germans to be able act in harmony with the Wehrmacht when the invasion came.


Hitler and the Nazi state had no intention of allowing an independent Ukrainian nation. The Ukraine was to be the breadbasket of the Greater German Reich, much as the Kaiser had envisioned it during World War I. When Bandera refused to retract his proclamation, he was arrested and sent to the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen, where he spent the next three and a quarter years. His brothers Aleksandr and Vasyl died in Auschwitz, murdered by Polish inmates or guards.


His father was executed by the NKVD in Kiev in July 1941. His sisters Oksana, Marta-Maria, and Volodymyra were all arrested and spent many years in Soviet gulags.


Another brother, Bohdan, was executed by either the Gestapo or NKVD, in 1943 or 1944.


The OUN continued to support the Germans for some time, but gradually shifted their activities to fighting both the Soviets and Nazis.



In 1959, Bohdan Stashynsky, a KGB agent, assassinated Bandera with cyanide gas on October 15, 1959.


In a nutshell, Bandera trained with and fought alongside with the Nazis to fight the Soviets. It's probably why he had worn a Nazi uniform at times. Like Stalin, he was betrayed by Hitler. He then fought Nazis and Soviets but was arrested and sent to a concentration camp. Some of his family were also arrested and killed by Nazis. Fighting with the Nazis against a common foe doesn't make Banderas a Nazi. He was naïve to trust them since Hitler wanted Ukraine just as much as Stalin did and now Putin.


http://russianmyths.wordpress.com/tag/world-war-ii/

I'm sorry but I didn't catch everyones name.

There are no doubt extremists in every nation but those who are doing Hitler's favorite salute in those photos aren't friends to Ukraine and don't represent Ukraine just as our Nazis don't represent America. After what the Nazis did to betray Ukraine and a hero that tried to lead them to independence, any Ukrainian who longs to be a fascist isn't a true patriot. No doubt, most every Russian leader from Stalin to Putin has used propaganda to show those Banderists once teamed up with Nazis and wanted to kill Russians then and want to kill ethnic Russians now.  Putin's hero Stalin teamed up with the Nazis but it doesn't make the Soviets Nazi.

[AkMike]

The middle picture is from a rally in Russia. The bottom is photoshopped.

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/ukrayina-ne-pidtrimala-rezolyutsiyu-oon-yaka-zasudzhuye-geroyizatsiyu-natsizmu.html

 Tineye.com will show the source for many of these "reliable source' pics.

  Just like the UN Helicopters in UA early on in the invasion.

[BillyB]

Take a look at the two photos below of Stepan Banderas. Face and pose is identical but he's wearing different clothes, one being in a Nazi uniform. I've heard of Soviets erasing people out of photos. Could they be changing their clothes for propaganda reasons? Before Photoshop there were the Soviets.