Question re marriage in third country prior to immigration

[rodsteel]

Has anyone experience with marriage in a country of non-residence (or citizenship) and then application at the spouse's US Embassy for immigration (e.g., US and Ukrainian citizenship with marriage in England and I-130 Petition in Kyiv)??

Thanks,

Rod

http://web.usembassy.kiev.ua/visa_immigrantvisas_eng.html

[Rvrwind]

Hi Rod...
Glad to see you found us!!!
In answer to your question, I personally have not had any experience with this. However one of my interpreters married an AM last year in a third country (can't recall the name off hand but was Spanish speaking) and they have had nothing but grief with the paperwork.
It has to be translated from Spanish to Russian for the Russian side & then to English for the US side. As I said nothing but grief & they just had another setback this past week. It has been 15 months & counting & when she will get to go to the US is still up in the air.
Dealing with a third country is just adding more confusion to an already confusing process. I recommend my clients marry in Russia or the country of the ladies origin if they are going to marry before bringing her to the US. Simplifies the whole process.
By the way welcome to RWD!!!

[Leslie]

Hi Rod

If your future wife is Ukrainian then she will need a special visa to marry in UK.  See this government webpage -

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1106654124706

This is a FAQ from this page -

I am overseas. Will I still need a visa if I am only visiting the UK to get married / register a civil partnership?
Yes. You will need to have a visit - marriage or visit - civil partnership visa. Without this, the registrar will not be able to take your notice of marriage / civil partnership. This condition applies even if you are from a country where you would not normally require a visa to come to the UK.

Th visa costs £50. Your future wife will also have to satisfy immigration control that she is a visitor.  This maybe difficult to do.  Same issues as getting a Ukrainian getting a tourist visa to UK.

I agree with RVR. Unless you have VERY good reasons to marry in the UK don't go this way.  UK is not a easy place to marry any more.  Blair has seen to that.  It will also complicate your eventual US immigration application.

[rodsteel]

Leslie, RVR,

Thanks for the info (and for the warm welcome), since she has a multi-year, multi-entry US visa I believe we could get the English visa without too much trouble. I took a look at the requirements and procedures to get married in Kyiv and figured it couldn't be much worse if we did it in England (ancestral home and all that sentimental stuff ;o)).

I have a supplemental question.

Has anyone gotten married in the US while the spouse was on a Tourist Visa and then both of you returned to the spouse's home country to file for immigration personally at the US Embassy??

Regards,

Rod

[jb]

Rod,

If the woman is in the US legally and you marry, (note, here I am assuming you are a US citizen) I don't think it is necessary to return to her home country to begin the immigration process.  You would simply file the paperwork here at your local USCIS office.  Her Tourist visa would terminate and she would become legal, pending AOS, just the same as a K-1 fiancee.

I highly recommend you don't take my word for it however, visit with a competent immigration attorney to get the actual lowdown.  The old BCIS used to frown on such a marriage and do punitive things, like place a two year ban on her travel back to the USA, but I've read where that practice has changed.

[rodsteel]

jb

Thanks.

The possible "frowning" on a domestic "change of status" request in such a case is one reason to return to Kyiv and file from there. Since I don't think the Embassy cares where you were married as long as the paper-work is correct, this option would meet the "spirit" of the law as well as the "letter". Another reason seems to be the difference in processing times (if I have been reading the threads and "help" sites correctly, filing for K3/CR-1 status in the US currently seems to be taking much longer than personally filing at the Embassy).

Regards,

Rod

[rodsteel]

Addenda:

I meant to add some more questions for the board - I have been doing some further investigation regarding the "Direct Consular Filing" option - I see from their web site that the Kyiv Embassy will allow it. Has anyone experience with this process either in Ukraine or any other country (especially after marriage in the USA)?? Pros - Cons ??

Thanks,

Rod

[jb]

Rod,

I admire your desire to comply with the letter of the law, but if you married her while she's here legally on a B-1 visa, why on earth would you want to send her back for up to 1+ years to do unnecessary paperwork?  I thought the whole idea of marriage was to be together.  Maybe I just look at things differently, but the cost of a decent Immigration Atty would be well worth the price if it would save being seperated for a year or more.  And I'll bet his fees would not be more than the cost of the R/T airfares you'd be buying just to spend time with your new wife.  A year or more is a long time to be waiting.  I know about this, we waited 14 months for our paperwork (K-3) to clear and I went to Moscow 2 more times, and we met in Helsinki once during that period.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. A good savvy lawyer who works Immigration cases can fix the for you.  Don't blow it off without at least checking it out.

[rodsteel]

jb

Good advice - I was intending to ask two or more for their opinions. However, my research so far indicates that Adjustment of Status and GC issuance is taking much longer than six months (and requires jumping through extra hoops to travel and work while in the AOS process) while the DCF (not the K3 process) seems to have taken less than four months in most cases (and includes a solution to the travel and work issues at the same time). Since I am hoping to visit England for Christmas and Kiev for New Years anyway (if it truly is taking less than four months) the DCF looks attractive right now.

Regards,

Rod

P.S. If I don't need a lawyer for the DCF then that and no fees for travel and work almost pays for the trip ;o))

[ConnerVT]

A good friend of mine married a RW who was in the US with an expired J-visa (one w/o the 2 year return provision).  She had filed for an extension, and was "out of status" while waiting for it to be decided.

After marrying, they filed and received her conditional green card within 10 months.  During that time, she was still "out of status" (like all K-1 wives initially are), but under no fear of extradition.

Speak with a lawyer.  Once in the US, it's very difficult to force someone to leave, unless they are committing felonies...

[rodsteel]

ConnerVT

Thanks, the more "experiences" you guys provide regarding these two options, the better picture I am generating of the possible "gotcha's" in either option. I talked to a local girl from Moscow last night who has been here for over five years. She had a friend that applied for the DCF in Kyiv and it took them one year (I am waiting for a phone number to see if the delay was just due to paper-work "snafu's" or something else.

Regards,

Rod

[jb]

Rod,

I'm not trying to talk you into anything.  It is my experience that men will do what they want to do anyway.  However, you seem hell bent on making trips, first to England, then to Kiev for the holidays.  I wouldn't do that if I were you.  If you decide to marry before-hand, assuming you marry while she's still here in a legal status, she will become "out of status" the moment she says "I Do", until the AOS interview.  The BPS agents, (Border Protection Service) the guys who man the gates at the POE's will happily let her travel home, but they won't let her back in while she's out of status, not until the U.S. State Department issues the CR-1.  Doing these trips may put you at the end of a very long line to get her legally back in the USA.

Over the years of doing this I've seen about a gazillion guys who thought they were pretty smart try to take shortcuts, try to generate a slick way of fooling the system and it always comes back to bite them on the arse in the end.  You have been given a gift most of the guys who read this board would die for, she's already here legally.  But it seems you are determined to blow it all just because you want what you want.  If you truly love this woman, and she has agreed to marry you, IMHO, you should, after careful consultation with a competent Immigration lawyer, strike while you have the opportunity and forget about making fun trips to the ancestral home for the time being.

That's just my opinion, and BTW, I've been wrong before.

[ConnerVT]

I must agree with jb 100% here.  Remember, with a RW as your wife, anything that goes wrong will be entirely your fault, as far as she's concerned.   

But seeing as it is your country (and it's laws) that you are dealing with, she would be right in this case.  Just as it would be her responsibility to watch for you while you were in Russia...

[KenC]

Rod,
Welcome to the board here. I would like to add a few thoughts to your thinking here. I married my wife here while she was on a student visa. We petitioned for a change in status and it was really no big deal. Keep in mind that this was prior to 9/11 so things may have changed. jb is right on the money about being "out of status" and not being allowed to return to the US. I specifically checked on this with an immigration attorney. This holds true even if you are issued an Advanced Parole. The formost expert on Direct Consular Filing is none other than Dan himself. Give him a shout out via a PM and I am sure he can give you the info you need. By all means check out all these possibilities with an immigration attorney to make sure. Good luck to you.
KenC

[PeeWee]

Leslie, RVR,

Thanks for the info (and for the warm welcome), since she has a multi-year, multi-entry US visa I believe we could get the English visa without too much trouble. I took a look at the requirements and procedures to get married in Kyiv and figured it couldn't be much worse if we did it in England (ancestral home and all that sentimental stuff ;o)).

I have a supplemental question.

Has anyone gotten married in the US while the spouse was on a Tourist Visa and then both of you returned to the spouse's home country to file for immigration personally at the US Embassy??

Regards,

Rod

I have a RW friend who married an American fellow in Las Vegas while she was here on a layover as a flight crew member. FYI, flight crews are given a "C" visa. Several months later they married again in Moscow. She passed through NY immigrations with a K-3 one year after her US marriage had occured. It seems that it can be done and without much trouble.

Peewee

[philb]

Thanks, the more "experiences" you guys provide regarding these two options, the better picture I am generating of the possible "gotcha's" in either option. I talked to a local girl from Moscow last night who has been here for over five years. She had a friend that applied for the DCF in Kyiv and it took them one year (I am waiting for a phone number to see if the delay was just due to paper-work "snafu's" or something else.

This one year wait is definitly not the norm.  The Kiev Embassy web site lists a time frame of 3 to 5 months to process a petition.  A couple of possible reasons for the delay are paper work problems, as you mentioned, or that the filing did not actually take place in Kiev, but  in the US. 

For people who get married in Ukraine and then return to the US and file the wait is typically over a year.

I have just finished with a DCF in Kiev.  We were married at the end of Feb.  My wife interviewed in May and currently has her sealed immigration packet and could come to the US at any time (she will be arriving in July).  All of this could have occured even more quickly.  She could have interviewed as early as April instead of waiting until May.

Getting married in Kiev and going the DCF route is not difficult by any means.  I was in Ukraine in December during which time I got the letter of non-impediment and set things up at ZAGS.  I returned in Feb. which, as I mentioned, is when we actually got married.  I filed the I-130 at that time.

It would be possible to do everything in one trip of say, 3 weeks or so, but I for one am glad that we spread this out over two trips.  This made for a much less hectic process

[rodsteel]

PeeWee and philb -

Encouraging information in both cases (especially yours philb).

Since gathering the supporting paperwork is going to take some time for both of us, we won't have to make the final decision for two or three months. If there are more of you that can share their knowledge on this topic please do so.

Regards,

Rod

P.S. KenC, I pm'd Dan but have not yet received a reply (is he on vacation or something?).

[PeeWee]

Rod,

I'm not trying to talk you into anything.  It is my experience that men will do what they want to do anyway.  However, you seem hell bent on making trips, first to England, then to Kiev for the holidays.  I wouldn't do that if I were you.  If you decide to marry before-hand, assuming you marry while she's still here in a legal status, she will become "out of status" the moment she says "I Do", until the AOS interview.  The BPS agents, (Border Protection Service) the guys who man the gates at the POE's will happily let her travel home, but they won't let her back in while she's out of status, not until the U.S. State Department issues the CR-1.  Doing these trips may put you at the end of a very long line to get her legally back in the USA.

Over the years of doing this I've seen about a gazillion guys who thought they were pretty smart try to take shortcuts, try to generate a slick way of fooling the system and it always comes back to bite them on the arse in the end.  You have been given a gift most of the guys who read this board would die for, she's already here legally.  But it seems you are determined to blow it all just because you want what you want.  If you truly love this woman, and she has agreed to marry you, IMHO, you should, after careful consultation with a competent Immigration lawyer, strike while you have the opportunity and forget about making fun trips to the ancestral home for the time being.

That's just my opinion, and BTW, I've been wrong before.

Jb's words reminded me of something that has happened to my friends, mentioned above. After they had married both in the US and Russia, she was here on a C visa, they asked for and received a k3 for her. She processed through her POE, remained in the US for 4 weeks, and then returned to Russia. Last I  heard she was till in Russia trying to get back into the US. I asked her what the embassy in Moscow was telling her. According to her, and maybe she does not understand what it is they are saying to her, is that she can try to reenter the US but that US immigrations may not let her enter. On the other hand she can continue to use her C visa to travel back and forth to the US.

The point is, and jb said it, why potentially mess up something that is not yet messed up?

Peewee

[Admin]

PeeWee and philb -

Encouraging information in both cases (especially yours philb).

Since gathering the supporting paperwork is going to take some time for both of us, we won't have to make the final decision for two or three months. If there are more of you that can share their knowledge on this topic please do so.

Regards,

Rod

P.S. KenC, I pm'd Dan but have not yet received a reply (is he on vacation or something?).

No, not on vacation - just a bit overwhelmed. Also, I noted that Philb jumped in, and he has the MOST current information available for DCF in Kyiv.

- Dan

[Jumper]

On marrying in Ukraine and filing DCF-

we married in Ukraine (local ZAGs/dnepropetrovsk )
 and filed DCF in Kyiv.

at that time it was fowarded to the Consulate in warsaw
( i believe now they process it in the kiev US embassy?)

once filed- the entire visa process took 4 to 5 months..
to her recieving her visa in her passport.

I've known many couples that DCFed,
and so far the average DCF for ukraine is 3 to 5 months.

and yes there are things i could have done to speed it up, we were not in a hurry.


on legally marrying in ukraine, it was not that much trouble.
yes you will need the letter of non impedement to marry.
wether you were married before or not.
this is needed before going to the proper zags for your intended ,
you will need to get it from the US embassy
(for me it was awalking in, swearing oath to the officer,
 i was not currently married and fre to marry, and getting the letter, 15 minutes tops)
and then you will need it stamped at the Ukranian ministry of foregn affairs - both places located in kiev.
 
There may be a few ZAGs hoops to jump thru,
and certain things you need legally translated and stamped by a local "approved official translator" of such documents.

I was there one month during this,and generaslly setting up the ceremony and nuptials,
 but if you planned it well, and just did the zags legal ceremony, 
 you could do it in a week, although it would be a bit frantic.and would have to be well planned out and all your ,and her, docs ready and in order.

 

[PeeWee]

AJ, regarding the visa processes, is there an advantage or is it a disadvantage to marry her in her native country? Or does it not make a difference one way or the other?

Peewee

[Jumper]

peewee-
loaded question..

because it depends on *her* country.
(well and thats assuming yours is the USA)

The K1, option is often the quickest.
and availible for all FSU countries.

wether its *best* is up to a whole thread of debate?
but it offers certain advantages and disadvantages.

Some FSU countries like Belarus and Ukraine,
allow DCF in the correct consulate for that country,
 of the I-130.( if legally married in those countries)
so it is another option, with both distinct advantages and disadvantages.
(i went thru my personal *take* on these  in the +removal of I -751 thread+)

Russia does not allow DCF,
but you can still marry her there in her country, then file the I-130 stateside, and file for a K3 visa..
which is a visa to allow her to join you in the USA , while awaiting the stateside I130 approval.

all three options are not availible, in all situations or countries,
and all have distinct advantages or disadvantages.IMHO.

each couples particular situation will decide what is correct for them?

as far as simple paperwork shuffling and timeline..
DCF ,when avaiable,i feel is the cleanest and most efficient.
the foriegn US consulates are generally much faster at processing I 130's
than the stateside service centers of the USCIS.
(the foriegn US consulates just have far fewer to look at)
The foriegn US consulates , despite being around the globe from you,
are strangly ebough much more assesible in person, e-mail,  or by phone
andsem nmuch more willing to work with you to answer yiou variuos concerns and questions, and are more prompt at replying to email abouyt your application.
and when filing DCF I-130,,
its straight foward like doing a 1040 short form for taxes-
 upon its approval.. your spouse gets to land with a GC issued pretty much immediately , and SS card within 2 weeks.
very limited USCIS paperwork is involved afterwards,.
other than an AOS at the 2 year mark,, and thats a simple filing.(possible interview) and she gets a 10 year GC.
the less you have to deal directly with the USCIS, the better, IMHO.

but its not the best option for everyone!

[PeeWee]

peewee-
loaded question..

because it depends on *her* country.
(well and thats assuming yours is the USA)

The K1, option is often the quickest.
and availible for all FSU countries.

wether its *best* is up to a whole thread of debate?
but it offers certain advantages and disadvantages.

Some FSU countries like Belarus and Ukraine,
allow DCF in the correct consulate for that country,
 of the I-130.( if legally married in those countries)
so it is another option, with both distinct advantages and disadvantages.
(i went thru my personal *take* on these  in the +removal of I -751 thread+)

Russia does not allow DCF,
but you can still marry her there in her country, then file the I-130 stateside, and file for a K3 visa..
which is a visa to allow her to join you in the USA , while awaiting the stateside I130 approval.

all three options are not availible, in all situations or countries,
and all have distinct advantages or disadvantages.IMHO.

each couples particular situation will decide what is correct for them?

as far as simple paperwork shuffling and timeline..
DCF ,when avaiable,i feel is the cleanest and most efficient.
the foriegn US consulates are generally much faster at processing I 130's
than the stateside service centers of the USCIS.
(the foriegn US consulates just have far fewer to look at)
The foriegn US consulates , despite being around the globe from you,
are strangly ebough much more assesible in person, e-mail,  or by phone
andsem nmuch more willing to work with you to answer yiou variuos concerns and questions, and are more prompt at replying to email abouyt your application.
and when filing DCF I-130,,
its straight foward like doing a 1040 short form for taxes-
 upon its approval.. your spouse gets to land with a GC issued pretty much immediately , and SS card within 2 weeks.
very limited USCIS paperwork is involved afterwards,.
other than an AOS at the 2 year mark,, and thats a simple filing.(possible interview) and she gets a 10 year GC.
the less you have to deal directly with the USCIS, the better, IMHO.

but its not the best option for everyone!

If I understand correctly for me, US, and her, Russia, a marriage in Russia would not be advantageous over the K-1 process.

Thanks.

Peewee

[rodsteel]

Dan - thank you.

AJ - good feedback - it supports my research (marriage and DCF filing in Ukraine shortest and simplest path so far). Only question now is if marriage in US and then DCF filing in Ukraine is just as quick.

Regards,

Rod

[Ste]

I'd like to add to Leslie's comments about marrying in the UK, it's not easy!

You need to have a visa for, or leave to enter of more than, six months to apply for a Certificate of Approval to marry, with a fee of course, think it's 135 quid. This visa is geared to getting more cash of students, WP holders and anyone else with FLR or ILR.

More appropriate, apply for Wedding Visitor Visa which I know little about but it's probably what it says on the tin, allows you to marry in the UK on a glorified visitors visa. And you'll need one each, you would normally enter UK under visa-waiver which is effectivly a paperless 90-day visitors visa so you'd need to enter UK on a Wedding Visitor Visa, not as a tourist. Phew!

I'd give you the full info but the UK Gov's Visa website is creaking under the strain.

Ste