С Днем Победы!

[Brasscasing]

All very true but far from the total picture.  How many additional soldiers and civilians died due to Nazi Germany's war of aggression against Europe?  Were those soldiers and civilians concerned with politics or did they just want it all to end and a return to peace?

On the contrary, I'm giving you the total picture as best I can relate it. It's you who are pigeon holing this one day commemoration into something more than it is.

Bo's comments above are spot on. I'll add that had the USSR/Stalin shown some fortitude in '39  and resisted the Nazis instead of collaborating with them history might be somewhat different than it's recorded today. Comrade Stalin was the architect of the USSR's plight during WW2 and bears significant responsibility for the suffering of the rest of Europe at the time as well.

Let's not kid ourselves, the Kremlin has fabricated a good portion of their Patriotic War over the years to lesson their responsibility as to the cause of the war in the first place.

Bottom line is they were one of many combatant nations who sacrificed to end Nazi aggression but not the saviors of the world they make themselves out to be.

Further, they are now showing themselves to be the next big threat to world peace very much along the same lines as the Nazi's were in the late '30s.

Brass

[Brasscasing]

Brass:.

Brass, you no longer have to wait. The rehabilitation of that pact has begun. Putin is now defending that agreement as it supposedly saved the CCCP.

http://meduza.io/news/2015/05/10/putin-nazval-pakt-molotova-ribbentropa-vazhnym-dlya-obespecheniya-bezopasnosti-sssr

Well that just figures, doesn't it? No way to hide, disappear or alter this shameful decree, so we'll fabricate an alternate explanation as to the motivation behind it.

Brass

[AC]

On the contrary, I'm giving you the total picture as best I can relate it. It's you who are pigeon holing this one day commemoration into something more than it is.

Oh well, we can agree to disagree then.  Not believing in torturing and murdering Christians and homosexuals has not stopped the USA from significant time together with our allies the Saudi's.  Iran torturing and murdering Christians and dissidents has not stopped marathon sessions by Kerry and the Obama administration from trying to make some sort of Nuclear Arms deal with them.

Point is, as I said before, an opportunity for diplomacy has been entirely lost.  As well the dead have no politics.  All that remains are their families, and the families over there don't watch these celebrations so much for what is going on today.  They watch these celebrations to honor their own from the past.

Not sending a Western delegation has played right into Putin's hands.

[Doll]

 
Putin has attempted to arrogate the USSR's victory for Russia, ignoring the roles of other nations, including Belarus and Ukraine, both of which lost greater numbers of their nationals than did Russia.   That should be considered as well.

Show me where Putin ignored what?
Belaus and Ukraine did NOT loose "greater numbers"

[pitbull]

I disagree with you, pitbull.   I don't think, given what Russia has done, both in invading Crimea, and in sending weaponry/equipment/personnel to Donbas, that Western leaders could go to celebrate Victory Day, with its garish military displays - military hardware the Russians are using to kill Ukrainians and foment war on European soil.


Putin has attempted to arrogate the USSR's victory for Russia, ignoring the roles of other nations, including Belarus and Ukraine, both of which lost greater numbers of their nationals than did Russia.   That should be considered as well.

I think current politics has to be separated from the historic significance of this event for the whole world.
Personally, I abhor Israel's  policy towards Palestine, and consider it genocide. However, if there were a big event in the memory of Holocaust in Israel and no Western country showed up, I would consider it a big mistake, just like not sending delegations to Russia yesterday was a big mistake as well.
Those events were arguably the most horrific in modern history and the world should give praise where its due. The article that Ludmila posted says it best:

"Historic events are facts that should not be manipulated according to the latest political fashions. Being angry at Moscow for mucking about in Ukraine does not in any way lessen the glory, admiration and thanks owed to the Russian people for their heroism during World War II.

 Americans and Canadians like to believe they won the war in Europe and give insufficient recognition to the decisive Soviet role. Most Europeans would rather not think about the matter. By contrast, Russians know that it was their soldiers who really won the war. They remain angry that their military achievements are ignored by American triumphalists and myth-makers. 

 Not only did Stalin’s Soviet Union play the key role in crushing Nazi Germany, its huge sacrifices saved the lives of countless American, British and Canadian soldiers. Were it not for the USSR’s victory, Nazi Germany might be alive and well today."
 

[mendeleyev]

The Mendeleyev Journal coverage of the parade:
http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/70th-anniversary-of-victory-day-in-russia/

[mendeleyev]

Not sending a Western delegation has played right into Putin's hands.

Not quite. He was in great part both angered and embarrassed. He does not hide emotions very well, and such was obvious. However, his minions did well at spinning the absence as a "them against us" opportunity.

For those planning to travel to Russia soon, several anti-American rallies have been approved in larger Russian cities. If you have travel plans in Russia, I'd not wear or carry any items (t-shirts, bags, etc) that have English lettering. Keep a low profile when it comes to being American, Canadian, or British.

[Doll]

. He was in great part both angered and embarrassed. He does not hide emotions very well, and such was obvious. 

Putin doesn't hide emotions? Hahaaaaaaaa

[Boethius]

You really should read more.  And not just the revisionist W. Ukrainian "historians" that you prefer.  Start with the link I posted on the other thread:  http://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/20130500-holocaust-in-ukraine.pdf                                                   

And then there is this:

excerpt
Khatyn or Chatyń (Belarusian and Russian: Хаты́нь, pronounced [xɐˈtɨnʲ]) was a village of 26 houses and 156 inhabitants in Belarus, in Lahoysk Raion, Minsk Region, 50 km away from Minsk. On March 22, 1943, the entire population of the village was massacred by the 118th Schutzmannschaft Nazi battalion.  The battalion was formed in July 1942 in Kiev and was made up mostly of Ukrainian nationalist collaborators from Western Ukraine, Hiwis[1][2][3] and the Dirlewanger Waffen-SS special battalion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

Oh, wow.  A wikipedia link.  Why am I not surprised?

Of the 900,000 Jews who died in Ukraine during WWII, the majority of them died at the hands of Germans. 

[Boethius]

Show me where Putin ignored what?
Belaus and Ukraine did NOT loose "greater numbers"

I am referring to a pattern.


Belarus and Ukraine, proportionately, did lose more of their populations.


http://www.businessinsider.com/percentage-of-countries-who-died-during-wwii-2014-5

[Boethius]

I think current politics has to be separated from the historic significance of this event for the whole world.
Personally, I abhor Israel's  policy towards Palestine, and consider it genocide. However, if there were a big event in the memory of Holocaust in Israel and no Western country showed up, I would consider it a big mistake, just like not sending delegations to Russia yesterday was a big mistake as well.
Those events were arguably the most horrific in modern history and the world should give praise where its due.

Merkel is laying a wreath in Moscow today.

As I stated, I think it would be sort of grotesque for Western leaders to appear at a parade of military hardware that is being used in Europe currently.  Russia has pretty much stated it doesn't need the rest of the world, and that it doesn't really respect the sacrifice Soviet citizens made in the past with its general "FU" to the EU, in particular, vis a vis Ukraine.


I can't speak for Americans, but most Canadians are very aware of the Soviet role in WWII.  FWIW, a lot of youth are aware of this because of gaming, in particular, the Medal of Honor games.

[Doll]

I am referring to a pattern.


 

What pattern? Show me.
You were angry at his May 9th speech- here is full video. Where did he say something like this? Minute and second

[Boethius]

I wasn't angry at his speech, nor was I referring to that particular speech.

[Doll]

  .  Russia has pretty much stated it doesn't need the rest of the world, and that it doesn't really respect the sacrifice Soviet citizens made in the past with its general "FU" to the EU, in particular, vis a vis Ukraine.

 .

How sis Russia state it?

[Boethius]

Where did he say something like this?

"Если мы посмотрим статистику времен Второй мировой войны, то выяснится, что наибольшие потери в ВОВ понесла именно РСФСР - более 70% потерь. Это значит, что война выиграна, не хочу никого обижать, но в основном за счет человеческих и индустриальных ресурсов РФ. Это исторический факт", - заявил Путин.
"Мы все равно бы победили, потому что мы - страна победителей", - добавил глава российского правительства.



http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/1149754-putin-pobeda-v-velikoj-otechestvennoj-vojne-byla-oderzhana-v-osnovnom-za-schet-resursov-rf

[Doll]

He is right

[Ed S.]

I can't speak for Americans, but most Canadians are very aware of the Soviet role in WWII.  FWIW, a lot of youth are aware of this because of gaming, in particular, the Medal of Honor games.

Nobody denies that in America really. I was a Ronald Reagan baby, and I grew up learning about the horrific death toll the Soviet Union faced, with special attention to Leningrad and Stalingrad. If anything there's too much of a push-back minimizing Western Allies' roles, some people credit the Soviets for defeating Japan! Poland is starting to get a lot of recognition now too with the Home Army and of course... without starting another can of worms, Katyn.

I posted that in the other thread, but it's equally applicable. IMO Russophobia is far less prevalent in America than Russia suspicions towards America. Even as a kid in the flag-waving patriotic times of the 80s, with the occasion exceptions (Red Dawn) Russians/Soviets weren't depicted as the bane of evil as they were in the 1950s.

[Boethius]

He is right

Several posts ago, you indicated he did acknowledge their sacrifices.  Now you state the opposite.


So basically you, too, are saying that 10 million Belarussian and Ukrainian lives don't matter, the factories moved from Ukraine to the Urals don't matter. 

[Boethius]

Nobody denies that in America really. I was a Ronald Reagan baby, and I grew up learning about the horrific death toll the Soviet Union faced, with special attention to Leningrad and Stalingrad. If anything there's too much of a push-back minimizing Western Allies' roles, some people credit the Soviets for defeating Japan! Poland is starting to get a lot of recognition now too with the Home Army and of course... without starting another can of worms, Katyn.

I posted that in the other thread, but it's equally applicable. IMO Russophobia is far less prevalent in America than Russia suspicions towards America. Even as a kid in the flag-waving patriotic times of the 80s, with the occasion exceptions (Red Dawn) Russians/Soviets weren't depicted as the bane of evil as they were in the 1950s.

The opposite makes a good narrative for perpetual victims.

[Doll]

Several posts ago, you indicated he did acknowledge their sacrifices.  Now you state the opposite.


So basically you, too, are saying that 10 million Belarussian and Ukrainian lives don't matter, the factories moved from Ukraine to the Urals don't matter.

Putin is right. He also did not ignore the role of other nations.
Where did I say 10 mln (where did you get these numbers, dear?) don't matter.
В наперстки играем, девушка?

Factories moved to the Urals don't matter- correct.

[BillyB]

WW2 - I'm waiting for the Russian/Putin celebration of the Ribbentrop-Molotov non-aggression pact or Nazi-Soviet Pact signed 23 August 1939. You know...the agreement between Hitler and Stalin that allowed Nazi Germany to invade and subsequently carve up Poland with Comrade Stalin launching the European war that eventually became WW2...that outta be a rip snorter commemoration day as well.

Link to English version of what Mendy posted below. Putin defended Stalin's move to carve up Eastern Europe so he wouldn't have to face Germany alone. If this was all a bluff to let Hitler believe Russia is on his side, Putin should ask himself why Stalin kept Eastern Europe after WW2? Putin agrees with Stalin on the agreement, keeping Eastern Europe and Putin is disappointed when the USSR broke apart.


http://news.yahoo.com/putin-defends-notorious-nazi-soviet-pact-174156837.html

May Day celebration should be about honoring the dead and their sacrifice and less about the politics.  At least for that one day.

Putin was talking lots of politics, even defending Stalin going into Eastern Europe and killing a bunch of Russia's neighbors in the effort to preserve Russian lives. Sounds idiotic. Is idiotic.

If Ronald Reagan were President, would he have missed a chance for diplomacy?

Reagan never went to USSR to celebrate with them. Reagan was very diplomatic though and practiced diplomacy through the barrel of a gun which was very effective.

Not sending a Western delegation has played right into Putin's hands.

Actually Putin wanted Western representatives to be present. It would help validate what he's done and currently doing and send a strong message to Ukraine that he is on somewhat friendly relations with Western leaders, the same leaders Ukraine is begging for help. He wanted an "In your face" moment for Ukraine. Didn't happen.

[jone]

Not quite. He was in great part both angered and embarrassed. He does not hide emotions very well, and such was obvious. However, his minions did well at spinning the absence as a "them against us" opportunity.

For those planning to travel to Russia soon, several anti-American rallies have been approved in larger Russian cities. If you have travel plans in Russia, I'd not wear or carry any items (t-shirts, bags, etc) that have English lettering. Keep a low profile when it comes to being American, Canadian, or British.

Mendy,

I was in three cities outside of the Federal Cities in the past week.  Quite honestly, everything is in English.  The kids all wear shirts in English.  The billboards are in English.  Even the typical restaurant has English names.

I was asked three times about my feelings towards what is happening.  Quite honestly, I think my response was enlightening:  I told those that asked that America doesn't even think about Russia one way or the other.  This supposed aggression is not real, because the average American likes Russian people and is not afraid of them.

However, the number of people with St. George Ribbons on astounded me.

[AkMike]

Did you happen to ask them what they thought about Russia invading Ukraine?

[Doll]

Mendy,

I was in three cities outside of the Federal Cities in the past week.  Quite honestly, everything is in English.  The kids all wear shirts in English.  The billboards are in English.  Even the typical restaurant has English names.

 
 

I knew that when I was reading Mendy's posts- it is funny to watch how people lie.

[jone]

Mike,

I was asked if I was a 'Patriot'.  I knew my answer would not be favorable.  So I said that I supported (from a foreigner's perspective) Putin in his first term.  I then stated that I supported Medvedev in his term.  Then I said that Russia is playing right into China's hands.  Because the western powers all think Putin is nuts.  (My words.)  I also said that he is greatly loved in Russia and that I respect Russians in their choice of their own leader.  And that Russia should also have that same respect for other countries.

I can tell you that unless you are more overt, my response and veiled reference to Ukraine went right over their heads.