Russia preventing its captured soldiers from contacting family in Russia

[ML]

It must be great to be a Russian and look at yourself every day in the mirror and know that your country is filled with the scumbags of the world.

= = = = = = = = = = =

Russia continues to deny that any Russian soldiers are in Ukraine, and now even prevents captured Russian soldiers from contacting their family in Russia.

Sergei Krivenko from the Russian Human Rights Council has just made public a report on his visit to the two Russian spetsnaz officers captured in Ukraine on May 16.  The two men – sergeant Alexander Alexandrov and captain Yefgeny Yerofeyev deny Russia’s claim that they were no longer in military service and ask for help in contacting their families as all phone numbers that they have are either blocked or don’t answer. 

Krivenko explains that he had the opportunity on June 1 to visit the men while at a conference in Kyiv.  The two soldiers are both receiving treatment for their injuries in the central Defence Ministry hospital in Kyiv, and Alexandrov has undergone a unique operation.  The doctors say that they have managed to avoid amputating his leg.

Krivenko notes that the conditions the men are held in are good, with both men having separate rooms, which are clean and bright.  Neither men had any complaints about the conditions and they categorically denied any form of torture or physical pressure on them since their arrest, as claimed by Russian television.  Neither seemed depressed, and they “held themselves with dignity”.

Their main worry, as mentioned, is that they are being prevented from contacting their families, and have asked Krivenko and the Human Rights Council to help.

Judging by earlier media reports, there are real grounds for concern.  Moscow has effectively abandoned the men, claiming that they were not active spetsnaz officers at the time of their capture.  This clashes totally with the men’s testimony given freely to various media sources and now to a member of Vladimir Putin’s own Human Rights Council.

There are also videos available allegedly taken from the two captured men’s mobile telephones which show the full make-up of the intelligence-sabotage unit of Russia’s Military Intelligence [GRU] that not only Ukraine, but the men themselves say they were part of.   The videos are available here and here.

Even if they were mercenaries, as Russia has claimed, there would be no need to prevent them speaking to their families.

At the end of May, Pavel Kanygin from Russia’s Novaya Gazeta visited the two men for the second time.  He had already spoken with both men who told him in detail about the reconnaissance work they were engaged in as Russian servicemen.  Kanygin writes that he had not planned to take any photos, but the men asked him to, explaining that it was only through such visits that they could make any contact with their families.  They tried phoning in his presence and found yet again that either nobody answered, or they were told that the number was “not available”.  That in fact determined the poignant title of Kanygin’s report: “It’s never happened to me that I rang my mother and she didn’t take the call”.   These were Alexandrov’s words who added that even before he married his wife, he could ring her even at 2 a.m. and she’d always answer.   

Now there is silence.

Or worse, since there was an interview given on Rossiya 24 where his wife told the interviewer that Alexandrov had left the military in December 2014.  He admits that this hit him very hard, though he defends his wife, saying that she’s not responsible.

This is not the first such occasion where wives have been put under pressure to give testimony at odds with the facts.  As reported here, after Lev Shlosberg first revealed information about the deaths of Pskov paratroopers in August 2014, the wife – or somebody pretending to be the wife – of Leonid Kichatkin, one of the men killed, claimed on the phone that her husband was not only alive, but right next to her and handed over the phone.  It is not clear who the journalists spoke with but Kichatkin’s grave can be found in the Pskov oblast.

Kanygin gives the final word to Sergeant Alexandrov:

“I think it’s in our joint power to put an end to all of this. So that our lads don’t go [to war] anymore, nor Ukrainian lads.  Here after all they’re all somebody’s brother, friend, son or father…”

Here we return to Krivenko’s comments.  He says that as a member of the Russian Human Rights Council he will be monitoring the defence of the two men.  He explains that the men have been charged with terrorism and provided with legal aid from Russian-speaking lawyers whom they say they are happy with.  The lawyers say that the charges under terrorism can carry a life sentence, but that they will be trying to get the charges changed to espionage, carrying sentences of 10 to 15 years.  This, however, is only if they can prove that Alexandrov and Yerofeyev were current members of the Russian army.

“During our conversation the detained men themselves confirmed that up till their capture they were Russian servicemen, that nobody had shown them any order dismissing them and their contract period had not ended. “

The Russian authorities have yet to officially answer the lawyers’ request for confirmation of their identity and status.  Krivenko points out that no documents were found when the men were detained and asserts that their names and who they are is known only from their own words.   This may formally be the case, yet Russia has confirmed that the men are Russian and that they were spetsnaz officers.  It denies only what it has denied with ever diminishing credibility since August last year when the first reports came of Russian soldiers being killed fighting Russia’s undeclared war in Ukraine.

The denial in this case has demonstrated to two Russian soldiers and should show others that the Kremlin is not only willing to send men to fight, kill and often die for its dubious ends, but will also leave the men to their fate and even put pressure on their families to abandon them.

http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1433684803

[jone]

It absolutely is the most heinous crime to think that a country, whose men are dying and suffering for it, not, often, of their choice would fail to acknowledge them, including ripping their families away from them if they are caught. 

The only worse thing that could happen is if a country killed its own people. 

[ML]

UK television channel Sky News canceled the airing of a report on the deaths of three Russian special forces soldiers due to the decree by Russian President Vladimir Putin that has made a state secret of any information on casualties suffered by Russian forces during “special operations.”

The report about the death of three soldiers of the 16th separate special forces brigade, stationed in Tambov, was supposed to be aired by Sky News on May 28, but after the publication of the presidential decree to classify data on losses of the military in peacetime, the broadcasting of the investigative report was postponed, two sources close to the film crew working on the report told RBK.

The Sky News team visited Tatarstan, Tambov and Chelyabinsk regions, where they were able to talk with relatives, co-workers and fellow villagers of Russian commandos allegedly killed in Ukraine – Timur Mamayusupov, Anton Savelyev and Ivan Kardapolov.

According to RBK’s sources, the British journalists managed to gain an interview with the mother of one of the soldiers, in which she confirmed that her son had been a serving soldier. She said she had received a document from the army stating that her son had been killed during a counter-terrorist operation in the North Caucasus

The relatives of the other soldiers flatly refused to talk, and even showed aggression to the reporters. At the same time fellow villagers of the other soldiers said that they had been killed in Ukraine.

Bloggers published a report on their investigation into the deaths of Mamayusupov, Savelyev and Kardapolov on May 21. Using data from social networks, the bloggers, Vadim Korovin and Ruslan Leviev, found the graves of the three, who they said were serving soldiers in the 16th Special Forces Brigade, and who were killed in Ukraine on May 5 this year.

The bloggers photographed wreaths from Russia’s Ministry of Defense on the soldiers’ graves, and gathered a lot of circumstantial evidence to confirm that all three died during fighting in Ukraine. In particular, they published pictures of the soldiers on armored vehicles in the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Luhansk in Ukraine.

Sky News correspondent Katie Stallard did not respond to a letter from RBK with questions about the report on the dead soldiers. According to RBK sources close to Sky News, its journalists are continuing to consult with their lawyers, but have decided nevertheless to air the report this week.

The Russian bureau of Sky News refused to comment on this report.

[Manny]

The only worse thing that could happen is if a country killed its own people.

Like Kiev does?


Like the American police do?

[cc3]

Pro-muscovite troll alert!!!

[jone]

I beg your pardon Lord Haw Haw, but The United States has never murdered 800,000 of its own people the way the Soviet Union did under Stalin.   With the atrocities mounting up, again, you should go and join the cause.  I'm sure that they would appreciate your unwavering support. 

Kyiv honors its dead.

So does the United States.

Russia doesn't appear inclined to do so.  Nor recognize those people it is forcing to fight to advance its causes. 

[fathertime]

It absolutely is the most heinous crime to think that a country, whose men are dying and suffering for it, not, often, of their choice would fail to acknowledge them, including ripping their families away from them if they are caught. 

The only worse thing that could happen is if a country killed its own people.

NO, no it is not the most heinous crime. Just because you think it is, doesn't make it so.  If I were in a position where I was fighting for my country's cause, and were killed, if it  would hurt the country's objective to acknowledge my existence, it would be ok with me if they forgot I existed.  There are many, many worse things a country can do to it's citizens, one of which is putting them in position to get killed under false pretenses. 


Fathertime! 

[jone]

Double troll alert, CC3.

[fathertime]

Double troll alert, CC3.

I've corrected your earlier misstatement, if that makes me a troll, i'm good with it.   


Fathertime!   

[jone]

Thanks for admitting it.  We're all good with it too.

[Boethius]

I beg your pardon Lord Haw Haw, but The United States has never murdered 800,000 of its own people the way the Soviet Union did under Stalin.   

800,000?  Try more than 20 million, though not all under Stalin.  Still, under Stalin, 2.5 million CPSU members, and upwards of 4.5 million Ukrainians alone. 


The current Russian leadership is almost all former KGB, meaning they were participants in the destruction of souls.  They enjoyed it.  And that is who Manny defends.

[fathertime]

Thanks for admitting it.  We're all good with it too.

All I've said is that I corrected your earlier misstatement, which really was warranted....YOU are the one throwing around the 'troll' reference, because you must feel shown up again.  I guess that is fine.   


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Like Kiev does?


Like the American police do?

Kyiv's government are absolute saints compared to what the Russians did to their own citizens in Chechnya.  That continues to today, with Moscow's installation of a strong man who routinely tortures his citizens, kills those who oppose him, and forces virginal high school teens to marry his cronies who are 40 years older.

[Boethius]

NO, no it is not the most heinous crime. Just because you think it is, doesn't make it so.  If I were in a position where I was fighting for my country's cause, and were killed, if it  would hurt the country's objective to acknowledge my existence, it would be ok with me if they forgot I existed.  There are many, many worse things a country can do to it's citizens, one of which is putting them in position to get killed under false pretenses. 


Fathertime!

I suspect jone was referring to mass executions which occur largely absent a rule of law, and mostly in totalitarian countries.


On this count, he is absolutely correct.  Those citizens are usually trapped, and their tormentors enjoy killing them for ideological purposes, or even for sport.

[Brasscasing]

Pro-muscovite troll alert!!!

The Russian troll factory is certainly not getting the their money's worth either with Lord Haw-Haw's flaccid attempt at deflection.

Let's review...

The original post:

It absolutely is the most heinous crime to think that a country, whose men are dying and suffering for it, not, often, of their choice would fail to acknowledge them, including ripping their families away from them if they are caught. 

The only worse thing that could happen is if a country killed its own people. 

The troll attempt...

Like Kiev does?


Like the American police do?

So, the gist of Jone's post is Russia's shameful disavowing of their own soldiers who, following their government's orders, covertly crossed the Ukraine border to wage an illegal war and were captured.

Jone opines the only thing worse than the Russian government's treatment of their own soldiers would be to shoot them themselves to avoid disclosure.

So now Lord Haw-Haw asks a couple of questions worded to muddy Jone's comment:

"Like Kiev does?"

In fact Kiev acknowledges all their captured soldiers and actively campaigns to ensure their soldiers proper treatment through the accepted international agencies.

Case in point their efforts to free Nadiya Savchenko  who is being illegally held hostage by the Putin regime.

Ukraine stands by their captured soldiers Russia cannot as to do so would be acknowledging they are participating in an illegal war on Ukrainian soil. All Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine can expect the same treatment.

" Like the American police do?"

This Russian troll's MO. Disparagement under the guise of a question.

The question has nothing to do with the comment or discussion at hand. US police forces neither kill their own officers if taken hostage or disavow said officers if taken hostage.

Seriously Stuart how much did you sell the forum out for this time? A few kopecs per pro Putin post or is there a more lucrative project like the pyramid scheme of a few years past?

Brass   



 

[jone]

800,000?  Try more than 20 million, though not all under Stalin.  Still, under Stalin, 2.5 million CPSU members, and upwards of 4.5 million Ukrainians alone. 


The current Russian leadership is almost all former KGB, meaning they were participants in the destruction of souls.  They enjoyed it.  And that is who Manny defends.

Yeah, but even the most ardent Stalin supporters, of whom there are a growing number in Russia, will admit to the 800,000.  The larger numbers are attributable to the famines and other related incidents that happened in the late 30s, i.e. the mass deportations, the gulags, etc.  These pogroms are documented as having happened, but the numbers of deaths and attributable deaths are difficult to confirm.

[Boethius]

Gorbachev in a speech admitted to 2.5 million CPSU members.  I assume that came directly from party archives.


The lower end of the Holodomor, based on demographics, is 3.5 million, with most experts believing the number exceeds 4.5 million.

[BillyB]

The United States has never murdered 800,000 of its own people the way the Soviet Union did under Stalin.

Why are you being so kind to Stalin? 800,000 is an extremely conservative estimate.

[BillyB]

Don't forget the time Stalin partnered up with Hitler. Then when he fought Hitler, he sent his soldiers into battle with few bullets and some didn't even have a rifle. Stalin also killed off his competent officers. Many died simply because Stalin made bad decisions.

[jone]

Billy,

You are probably correct.  I should not have been so conservative.  But the reality is that (oft misquoted statement attributed to Stalin) 1 death is a tragedy, a million deaths, a statistic.  I lose myself thinking more than even a couple of thousand. 

I have watched the Stalin apologists for years justify his actions as being the actions of a benevolent ruler in extreme circumstances.  To me, the guy was a mass murderer.  Plain and simple .

[Boethius]

It wasn't only Stalin.


Lenin established the gulags, and improved the ruthlessness of the secret police.  Tens of thousands of loyal Bolsheviks were required to round up people, torture them, put them on trains, guard them at gulags, etc.  This occurred until the 1980's, and it was all ideologically driven.  Stalin just took actions on a larger scale than did his predecessor, or the leaders that followed him, with the exception of Gorbachev.   

[Slumba]

Like Kiev does?


Like the American police do?

Rotherham.  5000 pedophiles in UK political elite.

Another stone-thrower living in a glass house ...

[msmobyone]

Like Kiev does?

It's KYIV - do feel free to check how the embassy of the UK spell the capital of Ukraine.

http://www.gov.uk/government/world/organisations/british-embassy-kyiv

Like the American police do?

Manny, isn't it great to be able to post without 'someone' agreeing that someone with a differing viewpoint should be stopped at the Russian border for failing to agree with Kremlin foreign policy decisions.... 

Yes, the actions of ANY states' Police / Security Forces exercising excessiuve force or even deadly force - sometimes  not even within their borders  - should be thoroughly 'outed'.... don't you agree...

It is noted that you offer no contribution / counter to the article

 

[msmobyone]

Russia continues to deny that any Russian soldiers are in Ukraine, and now even prevents captured Russian soldiers from contacting their family in Russia.

  The two men – sergeant Alexander Alexandrov and captain Yefgeny Yerofeyev deny Russia’s claim that they were no longer in military service and ask for help in contacting their families as all phone numbers that they have are either blocked or don’t answer. 

ML - IF the phones don't answer I'm sure they can send an email or use OK or VK SOCIAL media. I am no fan of Putin's but if the Ukrainians provide these guys with the kit,  they'd be able to get in contact... even if it was by a friend of a friend.

[Belvis]

Why are you being so kind to Stalin? 800,000 is an extremely conservative estimate.

It's not the estimate, this number is related to men shot by sentences. To be precise,  786,000 were sentenced to death in 1930-1955 years; 682,000 of them were shot in Great Terror (1937-38).

Kyiv's government are absolute saints compared to what the Russians did to their own citizens in Chechnya.  That continues to today, with Moscow's installation of a strong man who routinely tortures his citizens, kills those who oppose him, and forces virginal high school teens to marry his cronies who are 40 years older.

I can agree with Boethius, Kyiv's crimes are relatively mild comparing with what was done by Russian Army in Chechnya. Though these deeds arenot  too drastically different from what US forces were doing in Vietnam, that's the nature of war.  Though then Bo continues with usual plain propaganda about Putin; we have in Russia the joke verses about, here is an extract:
"За окошком дождь и град. Это Путин виноват! Кошка бросила котят - Это Путин виноват" (Outside the window the rain and hail. Putin is to blame! A cat abandon her kittens - This is Putin's guilt)

In fact Kiev acknowledges all their captured soldiers and actively campaigns to ensure their soldiers proper treatment through the accepted international agencies.
...
Ukraine stands by their captured soldiers Russia cannot as to do so would be acknowledging they are participating in an illegal war on Ukrainian soil.

Rose picture of Kiev attitude to ukrainian soldiers because of lack of access to first-hand info. Do you know about the truck with wounded ukrainian soldiers during retreat under Debaltsevo? The truck was broken on the move, so all wounded were deserted to freeze to death.  Only one has survived because rebels find him after 3 days. Do you know real stories how ukrainian soldiers are treated by their bosses? Though all these details are not important for you so I will not elaborate. You talk about treatment to captured? What is your view on the recent story, when ukrainians have shot off two forefingers of captured rebel on camera?

Russia has no option to recognize Russian soldiers there. It would mean the declaration of war to Ukraine. It seems to me the covered operations of special forces are more preferable for Ukraine than the open Ukraine-Russian war. Kiev also understands the reason and does not call the war as "war" but antiterrorist operation at Donbass.

Meanwhile Donetsk lives not only by war, people there are building normal life beyond frame of Ukraine while politicians are negotiating. Beauty contest in Donetsk, June 2015:

PS. I doubt the photo from Donetsk, it illustrated the news, but anyway I like the picture.
PSS. OK, here is the photo of Donetsk contest, the qualifying cut: