The Russian/Syrian connection thread

[BillyB]

You can't know, but chances are if you do as Canada did, and only take families, rather than single men, you aren't going to have the problems Europe is having.

Most of the terrorist attack problems Europe recently is having is due to the children of refugees who came there a decade or so ago. Wait 10+ years and Europe will have another major wave of terrorist attacks from the children of refugees that arrive today.

Single men are primary responsible for the sexual assaults in Europe. People, including Trump supporters, would be more accepting of refugees if they adopted our culture more to fit in.

[onlyFSU4me]

You can't know, but chances are if you do as Canada did, and only take families, rather than single men, you aren't going to have the problems Europe is having.

 There are some students, teachers and parents who would disagree with you about that.


http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/28/report-adult-refugees-enrolled-in-canadian-high-school-harassing-young-girls/


http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/10/canadian-newspaper-censors-article-on-refugee-abuse-of-elementary-students/




Adult Syrian males making advances on 14-15 years old girls? Syrian students repeatedly trying to choke a grade 3 student with a chain, then one of them shouting Muslims rule the world? Soccer being cancelled in one school because the Syrian players threatened to slit the throats of their opponents?


 Yeah, no problems with the refugees here in Canada, is there? The most disturbing part I see is how the newspaper pulled the story stating that bullying is a sensitive subject. These events that happened are way beyond bullying! Who told them to pull the article? Why stop the public from knowing about the dangers these refugees are putting our children in? These refugees that are showing this type of behavior should not be placed together with our children... period!!! And trying to hide that this problem is happening is criminal.


 The government obviously isn't screening these refugees close enough, then are unleashing them into the public where our children of all people are being terrorized. Maybe it is just a handful of these bad apples, so what? Explain that to the third grader that was choked with a chain! If they can't do a better job of making sure that Canadian citizens have nothing to be concerned about with integrating them into our society then they should not let any of them in at all.


  Things are NOT so rosy with the Syrian refugees in Canada.

[Boethius]

That was widely reported outside Rebel Media, and the gist of it was that Fredricton schools, which received 450 Syrian students, had no Arab translators and no ESL courses at all.  There was no violence and no one blown up, IIRC.  Just a few complaints from parents and lots of cultural misunderstandings in a city with a population of 56,000 that has not had to cope with non English speakers appearing all at once in its education system.

There are over 500 Syrian students in my city, in fact, in one school, they are the majority of the students, and there have been no issues.  The difference?  Strong ESL programs, which existed long before those students arrived.  We went through this in the 1990's with Bosnian students, and there are a lot of Ukrainian refugees here as well.

There are several Arab bilingual schools here, although Syrian students do not yet attend them, as it's been determined they must improve their English language skills first.  But they do have daily access to teachers who speak Arabic fluently.  Students were given the opportunity to attend summer classes to advance their learning and learn cultural norms, as well.

[GQBlues]

...  Things are NOT so rosy with the Syrian refugees in Canada.

Of course not.

I'm not sure how long you've been in Canada (unless you're native) but suppression of negative news is nothing, especially considering another Trudeau at the helm. "Just the positives, my dear...just the positives!". There's been no riots up there either from what I understand, etc...That's why a lot of our liberal celebrities will soon be immigrating up there now that DJT is our POTUS.

But I'll refrain from suggesting anything from folks who like to believe unicorns exist. It's their world, after all.

[onlyFSU4me]

That was widely reported outside Rebel Media, and the gist of it was that Fredricton schools, which received 450 Syrian students, had no Arab translators and no ESL courses at all.  There was no violence and no one blown up, IIRC.  Just a few complaints from parents and lots of cultural misunderstandings in a city with a population of 56,000 that has not had to cope with non English speakers appearing all at once in its education system.

There are over 500 Syrian students in my city, in fact, in one school, they are the majority of the students, and there have been no issues.  The difference?  Strong ESL programs, which existed long before those students arrived.  We went through this in the 1990's with Bosnian students, and there are a lot of Ukrainian refugees here as well.

There are several Arab bilingual schools here, although Syrian students do not yet attend them, as it's been determined they must improve their English language skills first.  But they do have daily access to teachers who speak Arabic fluently.  Students were given the opportunity to attend summer classes to advance their learning and learn cultural norms, as well.

 Adult Syrians hitting on 14-15 year old students is a cultural misunderstanding?
 Choking a grade 3 girl with a chain is a cultural misunderstanding?
 Telling other students they are going to slash their throats is a cultural misunderstanding?



[size=78%]Why don't you try to explain that to those children's parents? Amazing what apologists will try to say sometimes! [/size]




 And I'm happy that you don't have any problems there where you live, but according to this article there must be problems in Calgary and Toronto too, since reps from the school boards there are trying to get more federal funding to cope with them. So it is not only because of them being placed in a small community.


http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/03/misbehaving-syrian-students-are-a-federal-problem




 Bottom line is that the way Canada brought in the refugees is NOT the answer. We are having problems with them too, and whether or not you want to admit it, they are not cultural differences. IMO the problem lies with Trudeau being in such a big hurry to get them here and be able to puff out his chest and say we are helping that they didn't organize the proper screening, placement and education for them to be able to integrate into our society. And that makes it dangerous for us and our children. 
 

[Boethius]

You are assuming all those stories are true.  The Fredericton school board stated they were exaggerated -

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/fredericton-school-board-responds-to-allegations-leveled-against-syrian-students-1.2979552

http://globalnews.ca/news/2811724/sudden-influx-of-syrian-refugees-overwhelmed-n-b-high-school-documents/

I doubt 22 year olds were attending high school.  All those students were vetted and had to present valid documents before coming to Canada.  So, unlike in Europe, where asylum seekers lie to buttress their chance of staying in the country, that has not occurred in Canada.

I also doubt the stories of the chains and the throat slashing.  Where would a child obtain a chain to use on a playground?  That story was retracted by the paper the originally printed it, incidentally, as it could not be verified.  Its reporters were all on strike at the time it was published, and the paper was using inexperienced staff and no bylines.

http://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/the-chronicle-herald-unfairly-maligns-kids-in-attack-on-refugees/#Lack of professionalism

Please keep in mind that Rebel Media is known to publish many untruths, and its owner, Ezra Levant, has been sued for libel or defamation, and either lost or settled, in six separate cases that I can think of off the top of my head.

If Syrian students were indeed such a huge problem, it would not be isolated to Fredericton.  Why are there no reports from Toronto?  Winnipeg?  Calgary?  Edmonton?  Vancouver?  All took more Syrians than did Fredericton. 


I don't disagree that things were done too quickly, but there has been no violence caused by those refugees.  That's the point, and nothing you have posted dissuades me.

[fathertime]

When Syrians or any other non English speaking group immigrates, there has to be a program in place for the children to mainstream them as best as possible.  Kids say/do all sorts of awful things especially when frustrated.   


Personally, I'm good with immigrating a large number of people, but I don't like the idea of single men being the primary immigrants.  In many respects a young couple is ideal, during the vetting it should be determined if they would be a productive addition to our society.  Like it or not, the past generation or 2 hasn't produced enough children in the USA (and other countries) without the help of immigrants, both legal and illegal. 


When immigrating 10's of 1000's, it is a given there is going to be some bad apples no matter how well they are transitioned.  Unfortunately it is a terribly rough and tumble world out there.  There is a lot of work to be done, and immigrants can/should provide more benefit than bad. 


Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

  Things are NOT so rosy with the Syrian refugees in Canada.

Canada has been lucky not to be victims of multiple terrorist attacks. It's a matter of time before one or more slip past intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_VIA_Rail_Canada_terrorism_plot

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/11/americas/canada-ontario-police-kill-terror-suspect-aaron-driver/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

Canada has recorded 180 people leaving the country to join terrorists groups with 60 of them returning to Canada.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/isis-terrorists-infiltrating-canada-suspected-plotting-attacks/

No country should be victimized by their guests or have to pay a lot of money on intelligence to weed out the bad ones.

[Gator]

New York Times - Russia, Iran and Turkey Meet for Syria Talks, Excluding U.S.

Those who want to see the US withdraw from conflicts, particularly in the Middle East, are getting their wish. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/world/middleeast/russia-iran-and-turkey-meet-for-syria-talks-excluding-us.html?_r=0


Do you remember Obama's Syria policies in 2011-2012?

    -   Supporting Syrian rebels.
    -   Declaring "Assad must go."
    -   Drawing a redline. 

Without debating the options, Obama  stressed the US will not lead but will work with its alliances.  This was called by his critics "leading from behind."  That did not work, and maybe Obama did not want it to work. 

What Obama actually did from 2012-2016 was withdraw, to be replaced by Russia and Iran and ISIS. The US no longer sets the agenda; the US is not even included in the agenda, being excluded from Syria talks even though the Obama is willing to support plans to destroy ISIS (eventually).   

I wonder what our allies in the region are thinking?  The History of the world since WWII says when the US is not involved, "bad hombres" tend to prevail.  The wealthy Sunni oil states  will now be more concerned with Iranian (epicenter of terror) and Russian likely long term plans to control the Middle East.   So expect some realignment there.  Our Kurdish allies have non-sovereign homelands in Syria, and with their long-term enemy Turkey joining Russia and Syria,  the future of Syrian Kurds is not so bright.  Iraq?   

One could say allow the Sunni and Shia to continuing killing each other.  They do not embrace modernity, and we are no longer dependent upon ME oil.  I contend they are too smart to fight to the death. 

We do not need the Middle East, yet it behooves the US to debate whether to exercise influence  in the Middle East for the purpose of stability.   Trump's decision to nominate Tillerson, a man who knows Russia and the Middle East, is brilliant.  I look forward to his confirmation hearing that will discuss policies for Russia and the Middle East.  It is interesting that David Friedman, Trump's choice for Ambassador to Israel, has views opposite of Tillerson's. 

Meanwhile, if I were an American citizen in the Middle East, I would start developing an exit plan if I did not already have one.
 

[GQBlues]

..Without debating the options, Obama  stressed the US will not lead but will work with its alliances.  This was called by his critics "leading from behind."  That did not work, and maybe Obama did not want it to work....

 

No win situation. We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. So why bother?

Russia hasn't gained anything, or lost anything, it didn't already have before in Syria. Iran gaining Iraq only empathize my point as to why we need to bug out of these geo-political maneuvering.

Despite Obama's misguided, pacifist global politics, he still managed to increase US's involvement in global conflicts. Heightened big brother, and spent much more than W in doing so. Again, for what?

It isn't a mystery that the flashpoints, with the exception of Afghanistan, in ME/No.Africa/Ukraine revolves around 'oil'. Oil the US do not need, or have use for. Who then, need these oil-rich regions?

After Syria, you still have Yemen, Libya, and maybe now - Turkey and Tunisia. I say again, let Europe work for their own sake and survival for a change.

He's leaving behind $21 trillion of debt, wider involvement in global conflicts, spread of global terrorism on a much larger scale, a racial/socio-economic divide in-country, healthcare in chaos, rampant political/judicial corruption, intensified Asian relations, an out-of-control media, an annual $500+ billion trade deficit...

We have enough problems at home mopping up what that moron did for the past 8 years.

[LiveFromUkraine]

 

No win situation. We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. So why bother?

Russia hasn't gained anything, or lost anything, it didn't already have before in Syria. Iran gaining Iraq only empathize my point as to why we need to bug out of these geo-political maneuvering.

It's a money pit.  No matter what we do, it ends up getting worst and we throw more money down the drain.  I'd prefer getting out of that area all together. 


If we get attacked, we go in and bomb the stuffing out of them and leave.  No more rebuilding...  no more trying these stupid regime (which is an act of war imo) changes that never seems to work.  Anyone who attacks or aids in the attack of the US will be bombed.  Thank and have a good day.

[GQBlues]

When Syrians or any other non English speaking group immigrates, there has to be a program in place for the children to mainstream them as best as possible.  Kids say/do all sorts of awful things especially when frustrated.   


Personally, I'm good with immigrating a large number of people, but I don't like the idea of single men being the primary immigrants.  In many respects a young couple is ideal, during the vetting it should be determined if they would be a productive addition to our society.  Like it or not, the past generation or 2 hasn't produced enough children in the USA (and other countries) without the help of immigrants, both legal and illegal. 


When immigrating 10's of 1000's, it is a given there is going to be some bad apples no matter how well they are transitioned.  Unfortunately it is a terribly rough and tumble world out there.  There is a lot of work to be done, and immigrants can/should provide more benefit than bad. 

I realize things sometimes appear clearer from the rear view mirror, FT, but...based on the things you mentioned above, wouldn't be prudent to establish a 'safe zone' for these *refugees* instead? All things considered?

The UN ( ) can provide an INTERNATIONAL peace keeping force until the desert dust settles down.

[Brasscasing]

I realize things sometimes appear clearer from the rear view mirror, FT, but...based on the things you mentioned above, wouldn't be prudent to establish a 'safe zone' for these *refugees* instead? All things considered?

The UN ( ) can provide an INTERNATIONAL peace keeping force until the desert dust settles down.

The UN is no longer capable of dealing with this kind of situation. It's become a third world country club incompetent from the top down.

Even if the security council somehow managed to agree on a resolution (without Russia or the US vetoing one another on principle) the peacekeeping arm is itself now mostly made up of third world militaries and the governments, dictators/generals take the money supplied by the UN to pay for the peacekeeping operations and pocket it then under man, supply and feed their own soldiers.

In some cases the (so called) UN peacekeepers themselves end up preying on the very people they're charged with protecting for criminal gain or simply to survive in the field.

Don't rely on the UN coming to the rescue for anything. It's nothing more than a corrupt money pit. Save one or two institutions within the organization the UN needs to be disbanded.

Brass

[Gator]

Russia hasn't gained anything, or lost anything, it didn't already have before in Syria.

Not true.  Putin did gain in huge ways.

This will take some explanation.  First, the background in 2013: 

1.  Russia had approved the UN resolution protecting Libyan civilians from Gaddafi,  and Putin later felt misled when the US and NATO used the resolution for regime change.    

2.  Syria is important to keep open Russian sea routes to the Mediterranean.   Russia has long operated a navy base in the Syrian port of Tartus, where Putin has spent tens of billions in renovation since 2009.  To a landlocked Russia, the Syrian base is as important strategically as  a) the naval base in Sevastopol, seized from Ukraine in 2014,  and b) another Black Sea naval base under construction in Abkhazia, separated from Georgia in 2008.

3.  The Gulf Sunni states such as Qatar have proposed constructing gas pipelines through  Syria to Europe that would compete with Russian gas. 

If Assad had fallen in 2013,  Russia would have lost its naval base and would eventually have lost a significant part of the European gas market. That is why Putin told Obama that if the US bombs Assad and created a no-fly zone, Russia would defend Assad.   Russia leaked that it would also invade the Baltic states. 

Obama did not call Putin's bluff, effectively withdrawing from the Middle East.  Russia is emboldened and soon seizes Crimea.  Next,  Russia deploys to Syria,  saves Assad, thus proving to the Middle East (and to Europe) that the US can not be trusted.   Russia now not only sets the agenda, it has the most influence on the players. 

We have enough problems at home mopping up what that moron did for the past 8 years.

Obama's foreign policy mistakes may be larger than his domestic mistakes.  Much depends upon Iran, and it will take 10 years or so before we know about Iran.   Half the nation still loves Obama, thinking him a great President.   

[Gator]

[quote author=Brasscasing link=topic=20119.msg452962#msg452962

Don't rely on the UN coming to the rescue for anything. It's nothing more than a corrupt money pit. Save one or two institutions within the organization the UN needs to be disbanded.


[/quote]

Having worked for the UN, I can agree with you.   However, some effective international body is needed as a neutral body to prevent wars and serve international justice.  If not the UN, the world is totally dependent upon  international diplomacy among nations and alliances? 

As far as protecting human rights and supporting social progress, such programs can be done by NGOs with quite possibly  more efficiency.   

[GQBlues]

The UN is no longer capable of dealing with this kind of situation. It's become a third world country club incompetent from the top down.

Even if the security council somehow managed to agree on a resolution (without Russia or the US vetoing one another on principle) the peacekeeping arm is itself now mostly made up of third world militaries and the governments, dictators/generals take the money supplied by the UN to pay for the peacekeeping operations and pocket it then under man, supply and feed their own soldiers.

In some cases the (so called) UN peacekeepers themselves end up preying on the very people they're charged with protecting for criminal gain or simply to survive in the field.

Don't rely on the UN coming to the rescue for anything. It's nothing more than a corrupt money pit. Save one or two institutions within the organization the UN needs to be disbanded.

Brass

I couldn't agree with you more Brass..

Even the Queen of Jordan, one of the two biggest host of Syrian refugees, had requested the UN to oust these refugees ASAP and send them all to Europe. Saying: "If Europe won't house these refugees, they will risk terrorism."

Turkey, one of the other 'host', calls the refugees 'guests'.

Neither one is no less spared with terrorism.

[GQBlues]

Not true.  Putin did gain in huge ways....

You may have misunderstood my intent in matters concerning Syria/Russian relation. The alliance was always there, then and now. The single difference is, Russia is now seen as bigger, bolder and a much badder bear.

[Brasscasing]

Having worked for the UN, I can agree with you.   However, some effective international body is needed as a neutral body to prevent wars and serve international justice.  If not the UN, the world is totally dependent upon  international diplomacy among nations and alliances? 

As far as protecting human rights and supporting social progress, such programs can be done by NGOs with quite possibly  more efficiency.

Well, (as we both know) the UN is no longer a neutral body...I don't have the answer, Gator. All I know is the UN isn't it.

NGO's are good for immediate relief. However, they too are politicized for the most part and sometimes (not always) can cause more problems than they resolve.

Maybe with the new administration the UN will find itself again, who knows.

However, the security council is a sham and the general assembly considers the UN coffers their own personal ATM.

My own country was rightfully distancing itself from the entire UN concept but unfortunately, with the new government, which considers itself the godfather of all things UN, we're back in thick as thieves and as long as we (and any other country that) support(s) the organization in it's current incarnation nothing will change.

The positive in all this is the world governments that have supported (financed) the third world country club are being replaced (Merkel's next). The frumpy frau's finished and when she's out so will be Germany's financial support.

Hitting them in the pocket book might prompt some changes...

toptencontributers

Edited link to reflect a more up to date list.

Brass

[GQBlues]

...However, the security council is a sham and the general assembly considers the UN coffers their own personal ATM....

An aside (off-topic), UN and the open-ended coffer:

The 'transition' team had recently requested the names of USDE's scientists who created and presented the model to the UN about the impact of climate change. They refused.

When Mr. Perry gets to work, I hope he sues for this information under FOIA, and find out the whos and whats that were given to the UN committee, which led to a decision that the US needed to be *taxed* billion$/yr.

[Brasscasing]

I couldn't agree with you more Brass..

Even the Queen of Jordan, one of the two biggest host of Syrian refugees, had requested the UN to oust these refugees ASAP and send them all to Europe. Saying: "If Europe won't house these refugees, they will risk terrorism."

Turkey, one of the other 'host', calls the refugees 'guests'.

Neither one is no less spared with terrorism.

You have to wonder where these guys are...

Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC; Arabic: منظمة التعاون الإسلامي‎‎; French: Organisation de la Coopération Islamique), is an international organization founded in 1969 consisting of 57 member states, with a collective population of over 1.6 billion as of 2008. The organisation states that it is "the collective voice of the Muslim world" and works to "safeguard and protect the interests of the Muslim world in the spirit of promoting international peace and harmony".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation

...They originally set themselves up as the Arab/Muslim world's UN...But not a peep. Nada. Nothing.

Brass

[Brasscasing]

An aside (off-topic), UN and the open-ended coffer:

The 'transition' team had recently requested the names of USDE's scientists who created and presented the model to the UN about the impact of climate change. They refused.

When Mr. Perry gets to work, I hope he sues for this information under FOIA, and find out the whos and whats that were given to the UN committee, which led to a decision that the US needed to be *taxed* billion$/yr.

..And where the money went/is going.

Brass

[GQBlues]

You have to wonder where these guys are...

Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC; Arabic: منظمة التعاون الإسلامي‎‎; French: Organisation de la Coopération Islamique), is an international organization founded in 1969 consisting of 57 member states, with a collective population of over 1.6 billion as of 2008. The organisation states that it is "the collective voice of the Muslim world" and works to "safeguard and protect the interests of the Muslim world in the spirit of promoting international peace and harmony".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation

...They originally set themselves up as the Arab/Muslim world's UN...But not a peep. Nada. Nothing.

Brass

It's ironic it was founded in 1969, considering the Jordanians didn't want to have anything to do with the Palestinians. Treating them as 'non-citizens' when Transjordan was established, IINM. Eventually giving way to Yasser Arafat.

That's 3 years before the Munich tragedy.

[BillyB]

No win situation. We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. So why bother?

Russia hasn't gained anything, or lost anything, it didn't already have before in Syria. Iran gaining Iraq only empathize my point as to why we need to bug out of these geo-political maneuvering.

Obama's half ass policies in Syria has allowed ISIS to grow. No telling how much ISIS would've grown if we didn't get involved at all. Syria isn't important to America. Stability of the Middle East is. It will be interesting to see how Trump's non interventionist policies are going to work. To get rid of terrorism, he's going to have to get involved in nation building to create stable nations that can hold their own against the terrorists.

[fathertime]

I realize things sometimes appear clearer from the rear view mirror, FT, but...based on the things you mentioned above, wouldn't be prudent to establish a 'safe zone' for these *refugees* instead? All things considered?
 

Well, the US can benefit if we screen good enough.  Try to determine which refugees would be a benefit in the long term.  We can motivated to work individuals.      I don't like the idea of the UN going into an area in Syria and making it their own. 


Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

I’m with you regarding diversity FT, especially in terms of immigrants since I am one myself. One caveat I’d like to point out however is this…

Forget illegal immigration and (refugees which numbers in 100s of 1000s – plus visa lotteries) for now, but here are some interesting numbers we have…

How many immigrants reside in the United States?

The U.S. immigrant population stood at more than 42.4 million, or 13.3 percent, of the total U.S. population of 318.9 million in 2014, according to ACS data. Between 2013 and 2014, the foreign-born population increased by 1 million, or 2.5 percent.

Immigrants in the United States and their U.S.-born children now number approximately 81 million people, or 26 percent of the overall U.S. population.

•   Check out the Number and Share of Total U.S. Population, 1850-2014 in MPI’s Data Hub to see how the immigrant share of the overall population has fluctuated over time.

How many people immigrated to the United States last year?

In 2014, 1.3 million foreign-born individuals moved to the United States, an 11 percent increase from 1.2 million in 2013. India was the leading country of origin for new immigrants, with 147,500 arriving in 2014, followed by China with 131,800, Mexico with 130,000, Canada with 41,200, and the Philippines with 40,500….

Citation: http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states/

Even our *very welcomed* Snowbird brothers and sisters up north, despite the wonderful social system they have, actually impacts immigration unto our population.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states

Maybe some of these snowbirds counseled the likes of Whoopie Goldberg et al about the stupidity of their conviction, no?

The point is, *real* unemployment (including those who settled for work far less than their qualification) is at around 10% of our population. This number doesn’t even include the much larger number of our African-American able-bodied brethren who are not in the labor force. We don't have enough jobs available for our own citizens, much less absorbing a few 100,000s more...

We are not, as many liberal media would like for everyone to believe, xenophobes. Hillary called me Deplorable No. 154,296 and LFU Irredeemable No. 69, but I would argue she's just full of it for making sh!t up. We welcome immigrants, if not invite them over, as long as they submit to our immigration policies and law.

Safe Zones…until all rational, logical and sane assessments can be made. Look at Germany, they don’t even have a clue who drove the truck, much less how to find him. They said they’re looking for someone who left behind his documents in the truck…whoever that idiot is, is still on the loose! How sad, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, to say Syrian refugees as a whole, despite a realistic unknown number who harness hatred against our society and culture, would be a positive addition unto the mix seem rather careless and callous to me, if not downright fatal. Unfortunately, this is the current climate with which we are confronted with today.