Moving and living In Ukraine

[cc3]

GatoMoon,
   I think that's a good frame of reference for you, IMHO this is less about you moving to Ukraine and more about is this woman a good match for you or not.  the only way you'll really know is to go meet her, and if it doesn't work out, at least you'll have a bit more experience under your belt for next time,  I wouldn't give up, I married a wonderful woman from Ukraine, and 16 years later I still wake up with a smile on my face in the morning!!

Way to go! My most sincere congratulations on your marital longevity and domestic bliss...hope we can emulate it! 

[mies]

simple economics my friend.
if she's a typical Ukrainian, she makes about 500 USD month
I suspect you make more than that
I suspect your home is more valuable and of better quality than hers
so it makes more sense for her to come to you than the other way around
that's why all the men on this board (myself included) married to a Russian/Ukrainian woman have the woman come to them
What reason did she give for not coming to your home?

1) bringing and providing for an adult person in the USA or UK is far more expensive than affording a comfortable lifestyle in Ukraine. (grocery, health insurance, day-to-day operations etc)
2) the valuable property in the West can be rented out, and if it is very good - this income would be more than enough for a decent lifestyle in Ukraine.
3) whatever the woman makes in a month has little to no relevance to what the OP can be making. His potential salary depends solely on his qualification. If he can work in a multinational corporation at the management position he will make more than enough for good life in Ukraine. Even if in nominal terms his income will be less than at home, in real terms, especially with current exchange rate, the real income will increase substantially.
4) how much space do people need to live? 2 bedroom-apartment is quite enough for two adults with no children. If you want to have some "connection with nature" - you can buy yourself dacha. If it's in a remote village, it can cost as little as $3'000 for a 2-3 bedroom house with large garden. You can have your own organic produce during summer and a healthy lifestyle.
5) Currently, concerts and eating out are much cheaper in Ukraine than anywhere in the West. and quality is very good.

A friend of mine recently moved back to Kiev after living for 15 years in USA. She said she cried in disbelief when she rented a beautiful spacious house in the most posh Kyiv district for $700/mo when she just rented it, and the price since then dropped even more because she fixed the rental contract in UAH, not in USD. The rent for a 1-bedroom tiny apartment in the American city she used to live was around $2'000/mo. That situation will not last for long, but in the nearest few years it will remain like that.

You can buy a studio apartment in Kyiv for abour 20-30K+. Nice apartment sufficient for 2 people will cost around $60-70K. And this is the capital. It's not much. Real estate prices are very good at the moment.

[Anotherkiwi]

A friend of mine recently moved back to Kiev after living for 15 years in USA. She said she cried in disbelief when she rented a beautiful spacious house in the most posh Kyiv district for $700/mo when she just rented it, and the price since then dropped even more because she fixed the rental contract in UAH, not in USD. The rent for a 1-bedroom tiny apartment in the American city she used to live was around $2'000/mo. That situation will not last for long, but in the nearest few years it will remain like that.

You can buy a studio apartment in Kyiv for abour 20-30K+. Nice apartment sufficient for 2 people will cost around $60-70K. And this is the capital. It's not much. Real estate prices are very good at the moment.

That all sounds great, mies, but what are the rules now for foreigners buying real estate in Ukraine, especially if it's somewhere for them to live (as distinct from a property to be rented out)?  Aren't people going to get caught by the 90/180 day rules in any case, or are these being relaxed by the "new" government for people who wish to emigrate?

Maybe cc3 can help here, now that he's living in L'viv.

[krimster2]

there are “off-balance sheet” expenses to living in Ukraine I’m afraid.  For example, you may need to add travel to your home country periodically , or if you have in-laws nearby you may need to add financial support for them.  If you have a nice furnished home in your home country, don’t forget to add furniture, etc to your new home in Ukraine.  Expect to pay top price for furniture and domestic products in Ukraine for quality that is absolute rubbish.  I left Ukraine and returned to the USA to a low cost state (Texas), I owned my own home in Ukraine and Texas.  My expenses in Texas are about double that of Ukraine (and that’s before the “off-balance sheet” expenses), but the difference in quality is the distance between earth and stars.  The only things I miss from Ukraine are the convenience in travel to Europe, the nude beach next to my apartment (DAMN!) and Chersonese.  I don’t miss the garbage, and the screwed-up mentality of the people there that you have to deal with every day.  I like watching TV in English, I like ordering from Amazon Prime and having the product delivered in two days, I like driving without feeling like I’m risking my families lives every time, I like the fact that my neighborhood doesn’t have any garbage in the street, I like that I don’t have steel bars over every window in my home, and have to feel paranoid every time I leave my apartment.  I like that I don’t have to go to my kids school yards and pick up the used syringes and vodka bottles every day, little details like that, ahhh good times.... 

but seriously Gato, I think you’re asking the wrong question here, the real question is, “is this the right woman for you”, and I think there are reasons that the answer is no.  the wrong question is, “should you move to Ukraine, the answer to that is “no” as well...

Wales is quite a nice place, my maternal grandfather came from not to far away from the English side of the border near Hererfordshire.  My advice, don’t get a “city girl” from Kyiv or Odessa, what you really want is a “village girl” at least one who grew up there, and maybe moved to a larger mid-sized city like Nikolaev, she will be more suited to Wales.

[cc3]

That all sounds great, mies, but what are the rules now for foreigners buying real estate in Ukraine, especially if it's somewhere for them to live (as distinct from a property to be rented out)?  Aren't people going to get caught by the 90/180 day rules in any case, or are these being relaxed by the "new" government for people who wish to emigrate?

Maybe cc3 can help here, now that he's living in L'viv.

Due to the present, and near-future, confused and uncertain Ukrainian political and economic state, I would never recommend any westerner spending any money, on real estate here, that he could not afford to lose. We are contemplating buying a very modest dacha nearer to the Carpathians, for recreational use... something I could afford to lose if we had to high-tail it out of the country (to nearby Poland) because of further muscovite incursions. With improving conditions in UA, Lviv will be the only locality in Ukraine in which I will consider investing. We were really impressed by Poland and the Polish people and culture during our one 5 day trip to Krakow. That would be a European country worth investing in, I think (subject to further research).

[krimster2]

cc3,
   this is very good advice, if Putin gets another opportunity he is guaranteed to take it, Ukraine will almost certainly hand him this opportunity, right now Ukraine and the USA/IMF/etc are playing "liar's poker" over the issue of corruption, it's amazing that even IMF funds are being so openly stolen, with of course no prosecution.  a few weeks ago v.p. Biden told the Rada it had one last chance to clean-up corruption or in the future lose all western financial support.  Ukraine of course will do absolutely nothing about corruption, so it's calling Biden's bluff, if future lending is cut-off, Ukraine's economy collapses, if that happens, it's a whole new opportunity for Putin, the 10,000 or so dead so far in Donbas will be nothing...

http://harpers.org/blog/2015/08/undelivered-goods/     

[mies]

That all sounds great, mies, but what are the rules now for foreigners buying real estate in Ukraine, especially if it's somewhere for them to live (as distinct from a property to be rented out)?  Aren't people going to get caught by the 90/180 day rules in any case, or are these being relaxed by the "new" government for people who wish to emigrate?

Maybe cc3 can help here, now that he's living in L'viv.

that's a good point, but how this issue is solved when a woman moves to live in the West?

[mies]

Due to the present, and near-future, confused and uncertain Ukrainian political and economic state, I would never recommend any westerner spending any money, on real estate here, that he could not afford to lose. We are contemplating buying a very modest dacha nearer to the Carpathians, for recreational use... something I could afford to lose if we had to high-tail it out of the country (to nearby Poland) because of further muscovite incursions. With improving conditions in UA, Lviv will be the only locality in Ukraine in which I will consider investing. We were really impressed by Poland and the Polish people and culture during our one 5 day trip to Krakow. That would be a European country worth investing in, I think (subject to further research).

good point. On the other hand, you can always leave and rent it out to Ukrainians. They will always need place to stay. Or sell again. Just don't buy it near the seashore and in the war zone.
And I fully agree about Poland and Krakow. Slovakia is also a great place. I'd love to buy a house with a wineyard driving distance from Bratislava (and Wien/Austria, since everything is so close there).

[alex330]

That all sounds great, mies, but what are the rules now for foreigners buying real estate in Ukraine, especially if it's somewhere for them to live (as distinct from a property to be rented out)?  Aren't people going to get caught by the 90/180 day rules in any case, or are these being relaxed by the "new" government for people who wish to emigrate?

Not sure on the immigration rules but there have been new changes in regards to real estate which gives more visibility into the transactions.

http://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/business/transparency-comes-to-real-estate-land-transactions-404985.html

Both CC3 and krimster bring up very good points. We have been following them ourselves and the inability to squash corruption in Ukraine leaving them alone does worry us.

[AkMike]

That all sounds great, mies, but what are the rules now for foreigners buying real estate in Ukraine, especially if it's somewhere for them to live (as distinct from a property to be rented out)?  Aren't people going to get caught by the 90/180 day rules in any case, or are these being relaxed by the "new" government for people who wish to emigrate?

Maybe cc3 can help here, now that he's living in L'viv.

Buying real estate is pretty simple and  straight forward. Foreigners can own residential properties w/o problems. No taxes on your home either. There is tax on rental property though.
 You'll need to apply for the TR visa and work toward the Permanent residency card later on. I went straight to the Perm. skipping the D visa and TR based on being married for more than 2 years. (It'll be 11 years this week) 

[ML]

No taxes on your home either.

Not totally true Mike.

For apartment home (where you occupy), property taxes start above 60 square meters.

For house home (where you occupy), property taxes start above 100 square meters.

AND . . . these cut-off sizes will drop as time passes.

Remember that previously there was no property tax at all.

Once it gets started, as it now has, it will be like a narcotic leading to increased rates and decreased sizes to kick in.

[AkMike]

Thanks ML!
I wasn't aware of these changes. I'll check it out more!

 The new place will be a tax magnet then.... 

[krimster2]

also be aware that there is a 1% transfer tax payable at time of sale and another 1% tax that goes to Ukraine's pension fund, seller will always push these on to the buyer.  also be aware that seller will try to keep the recorded amount of the transaction to a lower amount than the actual price as they may be liable for a capital gains tax, but this may end up biting you in the future when you sell.  you will also have to face the hurdle of dealing with the property registration and transfer process which is a bureaucratic nightmare, many people hire people to do this for them, my wife did all of mine for me and it was a full time job for her, you'd be surprised how many documents you need to do a property transfer, even one from the local fire department, each document requires a fee and a bribe.  then there are real estate agents, easily the sleaziest people in Ukraine, watch them, because they will always try to get in the middle and jack up the price to get a bigger cut for themselves, ahhh good times...  you will see a lot of wild stuff in the title transfer office, like mama died and all her children literally fighting over who registers the title and gets ownership, I've seen sisters beating the crap out of each other over their mother's apartment

[calmissile]

http://www.topocr.com/image2.jpg

we'll have to see if the above image will load or not, I tried to add an image to the gallery, but that failed.
if it loads, the above image is the first page of the property sale contract (circa 2007) of a property I sold in Ukraine, the stated value was half what the actual sale price was.

here's one of mine, you have one?

Have you experienced a Ukrainian living in Ukraine transfering their property in Crimea to the new Russian registry?

[krimster2]

yeah, my sister in-law had to do this, I heard some of the details, if you want to know something specific I can ask her in my next skype call to her which will probably be in a few days