Passanger plane crashes in Russia killing all 62 passengers...

[redfeather]

I hope nobody here had anyone that was on this plane...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/03/19/passenger-plane-crashes-trying-to-land-at-russian-airport-all-62-on-board-killed.html?intcmp=hplnws

[mhr7]

I hope nobody here had anyone that was on this plane...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/03/19/passenger-plane-crashes-trying-to-land-at-russian-airport-all-62-on-board-killed.html?intcmp=hplnws

The Rostov airport is only about 30 km from me. Very high winds and hard rain last night followed by snow today.
Very sad.

[Shadow]

Any bets on how long it will take until Putin is accused of involvement?

[cc3]

Obviously pilot error; skill level and headwork not up to unacceptable (for a professionally cautious flight crew) weather conditions at the destination.

[calmissile]

Obviously pilot error; skill level and headwork not up to unacceptable (for a professionally cautious flight crew) weather conditions at the destination.

Agree, however wonder if the ILS was working.  Still, why not select an alternate while still having adaquate fuel?

[GuppyCaptain]

Agree, however wonder if the ILS was working.  Still, why not select an alternate while still having adaquate fuel?

Getthereitis (Get There Itis). A condition known amongst aviators as basically a sharp mental focus on getting the job done, often leading to poor decision making.

I'm not going to armchair quarterback but the most likely scenario was a go-around initiated into a CB cloud that lead to a loss of control. This stuff is always utterly gut-wrenching. Awful.....

[cc3]

Even with an operational ILS, and not having a detailed accident summary to reference, at first glance, it appears out of limits (crosswind/taillwind) wind conditions/below minimums visibility could have been major factors. Hindsight being 20/20, a diversion to the alternate was definitely called for.

[sleepycat]

Any bets on how long it will take until the mongoloid midget Putin is accused of involvement?

You have some inside information about the crash to share with us?

[mendeleyev]

Naturally all parties will try to point blame at others, but FlyDubai says that pilots had received permission to land from air traffic control. Airport authorities say that there was no communication of distress from the flight crew. The two pilots were Cypriot and Spanish, and both were apparently experienced pilots.

The alternate airports, Taganrog (TGK) or Krasnodar, may not have been reachable as supposedly the plane had circled for a long time while waiting for a window in the weather to land. Ten flights on that day were diverted to Krasnodar. But, one must also wonder whether airline policy on using alternate airports frowned on such landings because of penalties and gate fees to use an unscheduled facility.

The pilots communicated with the tower many times regarding the weather conditions:




The ministry on Emergency Situations says that 55 passengers (8 were Ukrainians) and 7 crew members were killed on Flight 981 from Dubai to Rostov-on-don. No Westerners, although the very first passenger listed has a Western sounding family name, Allen.

лариса Аллен
Ганна Андриева
эльвира Белякова
виктор Беспечнов
виктория Бевзюк
марина Бевзюк
юлия Безгласная
сергей Безгласный
галина Болгова
александр Божко
ольга Божко
алина Березина
константин Чеботарев
светлана Чеботарева
дмитрий Чернов
елена Чернова
кирилл Чистяков
олег Чистяков
виктория Чистякова
владимир Федянин
валерий Гамов
людмила Гончарова
елена Калиберда
сергей Калиберда
олеся Караванцева
ирина Карпенко
Катирвели Аяпан
ольга Клименко
павел Копосов
анастасия Копосова
Копосова Дарья
Копосова Людмила
татьяна Кравченко
раиса Лобода
Маяченко Ольга
Сиам Мохан
инна Негодаева
анна Осипова
галина Пакус
игорь Пакус
алексей Шанцин
ирина Шанцина
николай Шлипченко
валентина Сомина
манна Серхиева
наталья Тарасенко
Свитлана Цехельска
Данило Цихельски
павло Цихельски
наталья Веремеевская
александр Веремейвский
виталий Веремеевский
валентина Воронова
лариса Жевед

Hotline for families needing information: +7 (800) 775-17-17.

Rostov is near the Ukrainian border and thus it makes sense that Ukrainian passengers were traveling.

[mendeleyev]

Today (Sunday) has been declared a day of mourning in the Rostov-on-don region.

May God grant each victim memory eternal, and may the families find grace and comfort.

[cc3]

Naturally all parties will try to point blame at others, but FlyDubai says that pilots had received permission to land from air traffic control. Airport authorities say that there was no communication of distress from the flight crew. The two pilots were Cypriot and Spanish, and both were apparently experienced pilots.

The alternate airports, Taganrog (TGK) or Krasnodar, may not have been reachable as supposedly the plane had circled for a long time while waiting for a window in the weather to land. Ten flights on that day were diverted to Krasnodar. But, one must also wonder whether airline policy on using alternate airports frowned on such landings because of penalties and gate fees to use an unscheduled facility.

Neither clearance by ATC to commence approach or airline company miserliness obviates the captain's ultimate responsibility for the safety of the flight. All international airliners are invariably flown by "experienced" pilots.

"Waiting for a window in the weather to land" is not an allowable procedure in international instrument fight rules. If in a holding pattern over the destination, and the weather remains unacceptable at the time that the aircraft's fuel state has decreased to a minimum quantity allowing for diversion to the alternate, it is mandatory for the captain to initiate the diversion to the weather alternate airport.

[mendeleyev]

You are correct cc3. I do not condone, simply report. I am glad that we have pilots such as yourself on the forum to help understand the technical realities. Many of the points you make are also being made by Russian pilots on the Russian social media sites today.

I just inserted conversations between the pilot and the tower in the post above. What do you make of it?

[BC]

Indeed sad for those aboard and their families on the ground.  After previously aborted landings at ROV that subsequently diverted to other airports due to high/unstable winds, might have been best not to 'push the envelope' and head to another nearby airports like others did.

[calmissile]

Neither clearance by ATC to commence approach or airline company miserliness obviates the captain's ultimate responsibility for the safety of the flight. All international airliners are invariably flown by "experienced" pilots.

"Waiting for a window in the weather to land" is not an allowable procedure in international instrument fight rules. If in a holding pattern over the destination, and the weather remains unacceptable at the time that the aircraft's fuel state has decreased to a minimum quantity allowing for diversion to the alternate, it is mandatory for the captain to initiate the diversion to the weather alternate airport.

I was trying to find a trascript of the ground/air communications that Mendy posted but to no avail yet.  It is a mixture of Russian and English and I have a hard time even understanding the English.  Perhaps with your experience in flying international flights, you can put the pieces together.

What do you make of the events after listening to the tape?

[GuppyCaptain]

I listened to the ATC recording and was quite surprised to hear the controller relaying surface weather conditions that weren't actually that bad. The winds were quite high but generally in line with the runway. The ceiling and visibility weren't that terrible really. In reality it doesn't matter though because they initiated the second go around while approximately 1,500' above the ground which corresponds to roughly 5 miles from the end of the runway. Surface weather conditions should not have been a factor.

However, considering the weather that was pushing through and how nasty it was, I'm quite confident that the turbulence and vertical windshear were at least of moderate intensity. Not so much the turbulence but the vertical windshear and the loss of a headwind or a switch of a headwind to a tailwind can have drastic effects on the performance of an aircraft with drastic results like Delta 191, the L-1011 that crashed in DFW due to a microburst.

At five miles out on the approach, they would have been fully configured if not close to it. Fully configured meaning landing gear and landing flaps extended. This now puts the aircraft in a very critical low energy state; low, slow, and lots of drag. Unfortunately, this is the configuration that needs to be used for landing but it also means that mishandling a balked landing/go around can rapidly put you into a bad situation.

Still, the severe nose down angle of the jet when it crashed would indicate a stall (wings no longer flying) so again presumably an obvious loss of control after initiating the go around.

What gives me goose bumps and makes my stomach queasy is hearing their last transmission to ATC and how relatively calm it was. It's difficult listening to that and knowing that they had no idea just how close they are at that point to loosing their lives in a very grim way. This stuff is always very upsetting to me, but reinforces the ramifications of having a really bad day at the office.

As they've apparently recovered both the FDR and CVR, I'm guessing it won't take long to figure out exactly what happened and when.

[Anotherkiwi]

While I have no quarrel with the views expressed by our pilot members, I feel it was very "bad form" for the Russian equivalent of the NTSB to announce the cause of the crash as "pilot error" within a couple of hours of the crash, before ANY analysis could possibly have been done.

The problem with second-guessing what happened in the cockpit (or "Monday morning quarterbacking" for the Americans) is that nobody on here knows what happened.  Until there is a full and proper investigation of the data from the CVR and FDR, and the relevant information is made available to the public (by whatever means), that will remain the case.

[GuppyCaptain]

Well said Kiwi. At this point it's all speculation and it's certainly not proper for any official authorities or organizations to publicly speculate. As for the Russians announcing their findings within hours of the crash, well at the risk of offending some on here......it's just the Russian way. Sorry. That's just the fact of the matter.

[BC]

While I have no quarrel with the views expressed by our pilot members, I feel it was very "bad form" for the Russian equivalent of the NTSB to announce the cause of the crash as "pilot error" within a couple of hours of the crash, before ANY analysis could possibly have been done.

The problem with second-guessing what happened in the cockpit (or "Monday morning quarterbacking" for the Americans) is that nobody on here knows what happened.  Until there is a full and proper investigation of the data from the CVR and FDR, and the relevant information is made available to the public (by whatever means), that will remain the case.

Agree there should be no conclusions prior to investigation, but at the same time high winds and reported multiple aborts and diversion of other aircraft attempting a landing previously at ROV are indicative of possible causation.  For the moment I am tipping on wind shear or microburst conditions.  The pilots may have pushed a bit too far, not considering weather conditions and previous aircraft that diverted to other airports.  IIRC this was on it's second 'go around' with previous aircraft attempting landings three times before giving up.

[jone]

My belief is that the investigation will find that the speed of air over the surface area of the wing was not fast enough to keep the aircraft flying.   

[msmobyone]

Read something on Russia Today that the flydubai pilots are over-worked..

http://www.rt.com/news/337158-flydubai-fatigue-pilots-roster/

I read the early reports and a plan to fly via to the middle - east using this airline from India - via Dubai to Krasnodar - got shelved..

[GuppyCaptain]

My belief is that the investigation will find that the speed of air over the surface area of the wing was not fast enough to keep the aircraft flying.   

Precisely. A stall on the go around. The contributing factors will be interesting to read with fatigue no doubt being one of them.

[Anotherkiwi]

Read something on Russia Today that the flydubai pilots are over-worked..

http://www.rt.com/news/337158-flydubai-fatigue-pilots-roster/

I read the early reports and a plan to fly via to the middle - east using this airline from India - via Dubai to Krasnodar - got shelved..

Sorry, moby, but I find it very hard to believe ANYTHING written on RT.  What's the bet that this is just another troll?  I seriously doubt that anything like this (and their linked story about similar practices at Emirates), if true, would not have already been exposed in the western media.

[GuppyCaptain]

Sorry, moby, but I find it very hard to believe ANYTHING written on RT.  What's the bet that this is just another troll?  I seriously doubt that anything like this (and their linked story about similar practices at Emirates), if true, would not have already been exposed in the western media.

Kiwi, I don't trust RT News either, but unfortunately it's very true. The Mid-East 3 (Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar) work their long-haul crews very hard and with not a lot of time off to recover from the fatigue that type of flying causes.

Fly Dubai has an all B-737 fleet and does short to medium haul flying. Their crews mostly work "out and backs", meaning that they leave Dubai for a destination city and after a short turn on the ground return back to Dubai with new passengers. This can make for a long day and can be absolutely brutal if the turn leaves Dubai in the evening and returns in the morning. The crew are working all night. 

Add in challenging weather and you've got an even greater level of fatigue. The human body was not designed to work overnight. It's completely against its circadian rhythm. I have flown night turns before. The outbound leg isn't so bad but the return leg SUCKS for lack of a gentler term.

These poor saps were holding for two hours in the middle of the night probably getting the snot beat out of them in turbulence. It's not a pretty picture that's being painted with regard to the conditions that night. Obviously there were some really poor decisions made as well. It will turn out to be another typical accident in that a series of events and mistakes occurred to lead up to the catastrophe.

The point is that the Middle East airlines are know for working their crews hard. Unions are illegal there so thus flight crews have no recourse but to either fly it or find another job.

[BillyB]

Transcript is out on the final minutes of the flight.


"On the second landing attempt, the crew decided to pull up and try again, but 40 seconds after beginning the ascent, one of the pilots switched off the autopilot, possibly in response to sudden turbulence, the report said. Seconds after the autopilot was turned off, the plane plunged to the ground.

“Don’t worry,” one of the pilots says, according to the transcript, which was translated into Russian, seconds before saying, “Don’t do that!” The last words recorded were repeated calls to “Pull up!” Only “inhuman screams” could be heard for the last six seconds."


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/world/europe/flydubai-crash-russia.html?_r=0

[GuppyCaptain]

That "report" has a lot of bologna and inaccuracies in it especially with regard to the discussion of the flight controls in the second half. Also, strong enough turbulence can click off the autopilot itself. The "autopilot off" warning horn will be the same in that case as if a pilot deselected it. The only way the investigators could tell if it was kicked off by turbulence or deselected intentionally would be if one of them verbalized it.

Knowing the way the Russians handle accident investigation, I'd be suspect of any of their reports and that has nothing to do with my unfavorable view of their political moves in the last couple of years.