An interesting book about democracy, freedom, tyranny and terror

[Photo Guy]

Elen,
When you talk about the government and about the Russian
mafia, you are talking about corruption. So how do you fight
corruption? That is the big question. It is a very different question
from whether or not you think democracy is good or bad.

What do you all think about this question of corruption?
In the US, the FBI fights and prosecutes the mafia. Is there
a Russian counterpart? Also, these corrupt people are our
neighbors in the next house. There has to be a social stigma
against corrupt individuals. A free press - newspaper can help
expose the corruption. It's a very tough problem. I don't know
what the answer is. Rather than thinking the problem is democracy
you should be thinking about how corruption is the real problem.
In the US and western Europe there actually are many politicians
who are trying to do what is best for the common people. Do you
have any politicians like that? It is also easy for any politician to
make the wrong decision. They have some good ideas and
also bad ideas.

Maybe the internet will provide a free exchange of political
ideas in Russia. Does Russia have term limits for politicians? -doug

[Photo Guy]

If countries like Japan and France can succeed with democracy, why can't Russia?

[line]


They can but give the time... it is a long process and go fast can give bad result... Don't forget Doug, our Western country have need several decenia to become democracy... Russia is only at the beginning of the proces... they are on the way now... before, it was not possible for people like Elena to say what she think via internet because it was no internet connection with russia, because russia was a closed country...

Yes Bruno. I understand. But Elen talks about democracy as
'frivolous' and she seems to yearn for those more stable years
of communist dictatorship. She must realize that Russia's
current democracy is very different from democracy in
France or the US.    ...and I don't know what to say about
the problem of corruption.  -doug

[Photo Guy]

Liberty, equality and fraternity... the devise of France
[line]

Growing up in the New York area, I would often see the
Statue of Liberty. It would remind me of all that we have in
common with the people of France. As far as I'm concerned,
France is one of the most civilized societies on the face of
the earth, ..however imperfect.     -doug

[Frank]

It might be nice to remember history;  the western democratic countries like England and USA helped the USSR be free of German occupation.  You might say we helped to preserve Elen's way of life.  

Russia has been known through history to conquer other countries, such as Ukraine.  Millions of people died during  the thirties in Ukraine to help maintain Russia's way of life.  There are consequences to maintaining a way of life.  Is it worth it?  Frank

Bruno, I like your input on this subject.  Change is very slow.  We need to be patient.

Doug, you are very patriotic.  I like that.



 

[Bruno]

Frank write
[line]
It might be nice to remember history;  the western democratic countries like England and USA helped the USSR be free of German occupation. 
[line]


Whooowww.... i need to see your history book, maybe a revisionist version... without USSR, all Europa include UK was German now...

If Russia have not stop Hitler at Stalingrad and fight back, Hitler have find enough time and power for take the rest of Europa... they have pay a very heavy price for this, million of dead people...

All the time russia have give the life of his guys have allow the alliancie to ready the counter attack...

For these who have interest, i have see a good film who show the value of Russian soldat, it is based on the true story of Vassili Zaitsev, a hero of Stalingrad... it is a US-UK-Deutchland film from 2001 named : "Enemy at the Gates"...

[Frank]

Bruno, you are very right about Russia!  No, I did not get my information from any revisionist source.  Heck, I got it from the History Channel:D  During WWII, there were actually English pilots who were flying Russian Yak 3's beside Russians.  England and many other countries, including the USSR, were getting run over by the Germans.  The USA was one of the main sources of support to push back the Germans.  Our GI's were not there to pass out cookies and milk.  They were fighting.  

Did you know that the Germans crossed Belarus in one day?  They occupied Kiev, Krivoy Rog and many other places. Approximately 1.5 million people died by Kiev at the hands of the Germans. My fiancee's mother remembers hearing the dog fights in the sky overhead.  She also remembers eating US GI canned food.

Read up on the war on the sea's.  It is very interesting.

I am a history buff and find WWII to be quite fascinating!

Read up on USSR history during the 1930's.  Ukraine was considered to be the bread basket of the USSR.  Millions of people in Ukraine died during the 1930's due Russia taking their food.  I found out about this from my own research, as well as from talking to actual people living in Ukraine.  That is history. I have no need to judge.  My only reason for stating this is to impress upon others that Russia's system of government in the past has left a trail of discarded people.  Russia is not a Utopia. 
 

[Bruno]

[line]
My only reason for stating this is to impress upon others that Russia's system of government in the past has left a trail of discarded people.
[line]


Don't need go so far in the past... do you remember during the Perestroika, the Gorbachev's anti-alcohol campaign...

Moldavia people remember this very good, ... the moldavian economie was based on the production of very good wine but these law have lead to a economical catastrophe...

"Moldova's wine industry is considered the sector with the greatest potential for export growth provided the industry can raise its standards to western levels and develop brand recognition and internationally acceptable quality control. The country produced around 30 % of the Soviet Union's wine and brandy, although the industry suffered from Mikhail Gorbachev's anti-alcohol campaign which involved the ploughing up of more than 40 % of Moldova's vineyards."

[Elen]

Ok guys I do have what to tell back to you but just now I'll stop politic discussins (for a while) as I'm too busy with another things in my life:D

Bye. (But I'll be back)

[Photo Guy]

Frank and Bruno,
Here's my summary of WWII (in Europe):

In the beginning, two particular dictators had a pact.
Hitler and Stalin.
These were two dictators, not controlled by their common citizens.
That's how dictatorships are.
Lucky for us, Hitler broke his agreement with Stalin and
attacked Russia. The Russian winter and the strength of
the Russian people helped us win the war. And of course we
helped them win the war too. If Germany had been a democracy,
would there have been a war?  -doug

[Bruno]

[line]
Hitler and Stalin. These were two dictators, not controlled by their common citizens.
That's how dictatorships are... If Germany had been a democracy, would there have been a war?
[line]


Doug, it is all we will thing but it is not really true...

From where is coming the communisme ? ... from the fight of real people ( common citizens ) against the Tsar who represent a real dictator...

From where is coming Hitler... he was choose by his own citizen because he was able to give the power at a germany who have suffer after the first WW...

The two monster was choose by common citizen... Why ? Because they have hope a better life... And American was the first country to understand the lesson... since the second WW, they always try build back some level of life after each war... Japan and Germany was build back and have reach a high level of life with the help of American capital...

Actually, where you find dictactors ? In country with a low level of life... and don't forget that several dictator are placed by our Western country... See Irak now... a long time ago, it is US and Europa who have give the power to Saddam Hussein for fight Iran... And Europa have a long experience about this, with our colonie in Africa... we have take all have some value and we have stay these country in a total chaos...

[Elen]

can't keep silence again:?

In the beginning, two particular dictators had a pact. Hitler and Stalin.

I always wonder why the West suffers about such selective amnesia. 1939 WAS not the begining of the world, you know Photo Guy:? 

I can't to post here the whole course of history but there are some events you should know about

Before 1939 there was also 1937 when Britain and France played their games trying with Germany to make "united Erope without Russia" like Hitler demanded.

March 12, 1938. Hitler "joined" Austria (Britain and France keeped silence)

March 17, 1938 Soviets sent a note with the offer to montain the system of collective security in Europe to prevent agression. The answer of Britain government was "we don't think coordinated actions would be good for the peace in Europe" (in transaltion from diplomatic language that meant "Go to hell, Soviets. No body wanted you" )

September 30, 1938 Munich France-Britain-Italy-Germany signed the pact with Hitler about Chehoslovakya

Desember 1938 France signed the pact with Hitler about non-aggression

Well Soviets desided that's enough and we could play such games as well and we should be selfish as others for our own sake.

If Germany had been a democracy,would there have been a war? -doug

There were too many others "IFs" you know. What about democratic Britain's and France's behaviour??? As well as American's one about open the second front in 1942 like they have promiced but not in 1944 like they have done ??

[Photo Guy]

Bruno,
You are right. Bad living conditions can and has given rise to
dictatorships. And I hate the fact that the US government has
supported dictators in the past, like the Shah of Iran and now with
the Saudi royal family. The treaty with Hitler about Czechoslovakia..
...I don't know much about it, but it sounds insane.
The US's support of Saddam was insane and makes me sick.
The support and credibility that had been given to Arafat
was also insane. The advantage of democracy is that the common
people can remove these unwanted leaders. With a dictatorship,
it's hopeless.

I think the US is less likely to support dictators in the future.
Supporting these bad leaders has only had bad results for us and the world. The US has done some really stupid things in the past, but because of democracy, the government can be changed
and manipulated by the common people. That fact allows a certain
amount of hope and optimism. I protested against the war
in Vietnam. I've seen the US's foreign policies change extremely
quickly as a result of free elections here.

*IF* countries of the FSU become more free and more democratic,
living conditions will improve there and prosperity will flourish.
What is the alternative? Being herded around like cattle and
living in fear of a character like Hitler? Handing all power over
to some idiot leader/politician? Thank God for term limits.  -doug

[Elen]

The US's support of Saddam was insane and makes me sick. The support and credibility that had been given to Arafat was also insane.

You forgot Talibans with Bin Ladn;)

The advantage of democracy is that the common people can remove these unwanted leaders

 And as we see according to such many "insanes" which make you sick the result in the end is too close to tyrany's one:P

[Photo Guy]

Elen,
When my stupid American politicians supported those
stupid dictators, it may have had a bad effect on the world, true.
But there's a BIG difference in that my stupid leaders here
never had total control of the lives of common citizens here.
In other words, Clinton couldn't impulsively decide to arrest a bunch of people in Chicago and send them away to Death Valley (Siberia)
or Roosevelt was never able to have the police go to the
houses of Jews (or name an ethnic group) and take them to
jail because of something they said in a newspaper. We were
always free to speak our mind here, and live wherever we
wanted to live. Imagine a place where you can write in a newspaper
and gladly explain why you think the current president is an ass.
You can do that without worrying about arrest or violence.

If he makes a big mistake, he won't be elected again. If he is elected, you can blame the common people. Johnson was not
forgiven for the Vietnam war, and his man Humphrey was
defeated.

I'm curious. How do those Russian women who have moved to the US and lived here feel about democracy? Do they yearn for the days of Brezshnev? Do the Poles yearn for those past times?
-doug  

[Bruno]

Doug and Elen,

The first thing, to understand is that no one country is fully clean... each country have make mistake in the past and we need learn from history for not make it again...

I don't think that Poutin is able to send several people to siberia now... when people are no happy in russia, they can make some manifestation ... russia have already some independant press and these press don't always agree with the gouverment...

In short, don't judge the past but learn from the past for ready a better future... now russia have already make a step in the way of democratie but the economie need to follow... in place of steal petrol of diamont, it is better to use some of our money for help the economie to start again... don't need send money, but we can help for build new fabric who go give work to people... they don't need charity but real work who give a normal life... and from the normal life, the democratic can make a better and fast evolution...

[Elen]

 

don't think that Poutin is able to send several people to siberia now

 

Pity!:?:? Because a half of those who are next to Puti now deserve nothing other than free-of-pay trip to Seberia with one-way ticket:P. Impunity is one of the main problems in Russia. 

But there's a BIG difference in that my stupid leaders here never had total control of the lives of common citizens here.

The BIG difference is that your democracy is only for your own citizens. Outside American's board your behaviour is too far from democracy (starting with your desire to decide fro other people what kind of government they want to have and ending with sunctions or bombs on heads who don't agree with you)

Imagine a place where you can write in a newspaper and gladly explain why you think the current president is an ass.

You see that right does not such excite me as that "ass" doesn't care what I write there. And that right falls down in my eyes even more when I understand that useless right I got for exchange to another right (like let's say free of pay edication)

I'm curious. How do those Russian women who have moved to the US and lived here feel about democracy? Do they yearn for the days of Brezshnev? Do the Poles yearn for those past times?

Your BIG problem is that you constantly try to fit what you have in America to Russian reality.

What about Poles?


 

in place of steal petrol of diamont, it is better to use some of our money for help the economie to start again...  

Who do need one more competitor at the world market's field?? It's not in capitalist's nature. But steal petrol ( I mean to buy it cheap from those who steal it from their own people) is right what capitalism used to do.

[Elen]

It might be nice to remember history;  the western democratic countries like England and USA helped the USSR be free of German occupation

Yeah?? I have another view on that like England was in big hell if Russians didn't take the main fight with with Germans. As for the USA then yes you helped us with arms but it was liitle persent in all what we have producted by our own, secondary you had your money (and asked the highest prices among others countries you "helped" ) and thirdly you opened the second front only in 1944 when it was already clear we could finished that without you.

 You might say we helped to preserve Elen's way of life.  

Should I fall on my keens with thanks?

Russia has been known through history to conquer other countries, such as Ukraine.  Millions of people died during  the thirties in Ukraine to help maintain Russia's way of life.

They died during fighting to collectivisatin which in it's turn helped to saved more lifes in WWII than your food you sent us as your "help".

 

[Frank]

Elen, we did not just supply food.  We supplied thousands and thousands of men who lost their lives. Maybe, we did not loose millions of lives, but that does not negate the fact that we had a major presence during WWII.  In no way do I wish to minimize the contribution of the USSR in this war.  They lost more lives than all other countries.  That is sad.  Read up on the fighting at Normandy. Is this the second front you are referring to?  If so, it is this second front that gave us and our allies a toe hold to France.  Literally within months, Hitler was losing his control over the Atlantic border because of what the USA did.

  Anyone who is antagonistic toward the USA can find any one of hundreds of ways to tear us down with words.  Sooner or later, others will have to accept the fact that we helped to a GREAT extent.  If you will remember the Yalta accord, there were four regions that Germany was divided into.  Three of those countries were USSR, England and USA. Unfortunately, I had a momentary memory lapse on who the other country was. :X  If USSR had done it all by itself, the Iron Curtain would have covered the whole of Germany.  England and the USA would not have been at Yalta.  If you will remember by history, England and USA gave their portions of Germany back to the Germans later.  When Eastern Germany became united with western Germany, I personally think it was the Germans taking it back.  In spite of this, I still love the individual countries of the former USSR.  The people are great!! This includes you:D

The people I have talked to from Ukraine weren't too happy with their food being taken:X

Where there is a ray of hope in peoples hearts, there will always be the threat of impending democracy:D

[Photo Guy]

Sure. It sounds good to me, Bruno.
If Hilton opens a new hotel in Odessa, will the mafia take
control of it? If so, economic growth will be very slow and
maybe impossible.  -doug

[Photo Guy]

The new democracy in Iraq will prove to be a good result
of that war. Another good effect, will be for the people of Lebanon,
-the removal of Syrian forces. Both of these changes are
good for the common people of both countries.
Who can you trust?
Can you imagine a world that includes benevolence? Or is the
world a dark cynical place?

How can the US create freedom
and democracy for the common people living under oppressive dictatorships? Should we allow the people of Saudi Arabia to remain silent and oppressed? The Palestinians? Will the United Nations ever be a potent tool for change? Many US citizens are tired of playing the role of world 'police'. What is the EU and Russia doing for the common people of, say, Palestine or Saudi Arabia?   -doug

[Elen]

How can the US create freedom and democracy for the common people living under oppressive dictatorships?

 Does anybody ask you to do that?

Many US citizens are tired of playing the role of world 'police'.

 Ah! :D At least the world got a slight hope:P:P you would leave others in a rest

What is the EU and Russia doing for the common people of, say, Palestine or Saudi Arabia

I hope we have learned now to not put our noses into non-our business.(though I recall there were times when the USSR was at Palestine's side and btw there were much more little suiside bombers in those times)  Any way I think if we will be going to "do " something it would be not "our"  initiative but a  decision of some organisation, included opinion of others countries.

[Frank]

Hey Doug,  really I wonder if people in the Middle East are capable of understanding what freedom is.  Their culture and religious values are oppressive.  I approve of the reasoning of our helping these countries, but is it like leading a horse to water but not being able to make it drink.  The same is true for Russia.  If people in Russia want to be free to make their own choices and be responsible for their own lives, they will have to take the initiative.  That is not our responsibility.  As far as Iraq goes, I am in agreement as to why we went there.

Concerning  leaving other countries to rest, as Elen suggested, does this mean we can stop giving aid to other countries too?  It seems that when ever there is a disaster or some kind of difficulty, everyone seems to have their hands out waiting for the US to give them something.  After we give them money, they seem go gripe and complain because we did not give them enough and they talk badly of us.  I don't mind helping other countries, but everyone seems to think it is our responsibility to do so.  If we help other countries financially, maybe there should be requirement attached to the money??  I don't know.

 

[Photo Guy]

Hey Doug,  really I wonder if people in the Middle East are capable of understanding what freedom is.  Their culture and religious values are oppressive.

I totally disagree. If democracy and freedom can thrive in
Japan, it also can for the Palestinian people. And if doesn't thrive
there, then the world has to deal with a dictator who encourages
fear and hate - a la Arafat.

[Photo Guy]

What is the EU and Russia doing for the common people of, say, Palestine or Saudi Arabia

I hope we have learned now to not put our noses into non-our business.(though I recall there were times when the USSR was at Palestine's side and btw there were much more little suiside bombers in those times)  Any way I think if we will be going to "do " something it would be not "our"  initiative but a  decision of some organisation, included opinion of others countries.
[/quote]
Elen, the world is a very small place. What happens in one
room affects the health of the entire house. That's the truth.
France was against the Iraq war and now they applaud the
free elections there. Should oppressed people be liberated?
Or should poor oppressed people be allowed to continue to live
in societies of fear, withiout liberty?   -doug

[Photo Guy]

But there's a BIG difference in that my stupid leaders here never had total control of the lives of common citizens here.

The BIG difference is that your democracy is only for your own citizens. Outside American's board your behaviour is too far from democracy (starting with your desire to decide fro other people what kind of government they want to have and ending with sunctions or bombs on heads who don't agree with you)
[/quote]
US's behavior is 'too far from democracy'? What are the new elections in Iraq? !!!   As far as governments that don't agree
with us, what about Germany? France? Spain? Do you really
think we would threaten these countries? That's silly.  -doug