Update. Not Good.

[BillyB]

In any event, she can still obtain her citizenship without any support from Lonedrake.

She still needs LD's signature to validate he agrees the marriage was in good faith. I don't think LD will be happy to sign anything in the event of a messy divorce. It's apparent she now wants to take the DV road to getting rights to stay in America. It would be hard for her to prove any DV this late in the marriage unless there is evidence against LD prior or LD makes contact with her anytime from here on out that can be used against him.

The fact LD's wife sends LD a photo of a protection order taunting him tells me she's not afraid of him.

Here men (and women) waste $$$$ on lawyers and court battles instead of doing something much more peaceful and reasonable: talking to each other and splitting between themselves money saved on legal fees.

That's the smart thing to do but in most divorces one or both parties have been unreasonable in the marriage for them to get to the point of divorce and to get them to see reason during a breakup is hard to do.

LD, unless your income is high I wouldn't worry too much about a high payment. Likely you will have to pay nothing at all or if you do it will only be for half the length of your marriage as was the law in Minnesota when I went through this nonsense ('03). BTW I was making about $120K a year and paid nothing in spousal support and kept all my stuff.

Maxx, although you paid nothing in spousal support, you may have been lucky, or your ex had a bad or incompetent attorney, or your judge figured she could get a job and carry on easily after divorce. In the below link a lawyer talks about MN law for spousal support and he says it's hard to know what the judge will decide because they are given lots of leeway to make their decisions. That is the discretion I was talking about earlier and that discretion works against a man more than it does a woman. I would be very surprised at the end of LD's divorce to learn his judge put his ex on the streets penniless or in a situation that makes her use social programs that taxpayers have to pay for. Your post gives LD hope everything will be fine should his divorce go to trial. He needs to prepare for the worst and try to end this with a settlement.

http://www.divorcenet.com/states/minnesota/spousal_maintenance_in_minnesota

[Muzh]

I thought they had in the biz discounts? 

There was once a father who had three sons. The sons grew up to be a doctor, engineer and lawyer, respectively.


The father on his deathbed called his sons and told them:


"I sacrificed everything so you all would get a good education and a good job. All I ask in return is the day I'm buried you all put $10,000 dollars in my coffin before I'm burred."


At the funeral all three sons were sad and crying.


The doctor put in a wad of $100 bills in the coffin and wailed on top of his deceased father.


The engineer did the same.


The lawyer was the most despondent. Wiping tears he wrote a check for $30,000 and put it on his father's suit, took the cash and left. Crying like Mary Magdalene.

[BillyB]

LD, here are your state's guidelines to spousal maintenance. I see many factors that will get your wife to qualify for spousal maintenance. Her emotional state of mind isn't healthy and she can't work. The state of MN does allow a judge to award permanent alimony. This may not happen to you since a judge may reasonably expect an immigrant woman to get education and become employable within a few years.

http://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=518.552

[fathertime]

In the end I think you will be happier if you are a bit generous here, even if you feel she doesn't deserve it.  If you can get everything signed off on, and simply be done, you could save lots of money by avoiding the fight in court.


In addition some people really let court fights get to them emotionally.  If you are one of those types of people that is going to worry and lose sleep, it is another reason to pay a little more to end it without a big fuss. 


Also, some men get all tied up emotionally about soon to be ex-wives, and dance like puppets on the end of strings.  If it were me, I'd only have necessary contact finalizing details of the divorce.  Start to enjoy other aspects of your life. 


Fathertime! 

[Maxx2]

BillyB, when I went though the gauntlet I listened to the doom and gloomers and went through emotional hell as result. From what I've noticed from many of these divorces the material loss is not as bad as people imagine it will be although anything is possible. My judge and his wife were the biggest donors to the women's shelter who represented my ex-wife in court. She had no job or special skills, had a 6 year old son and no place to live yet she got nothing. I'm not going to argue with you anymore Billy. You can have the last word.

[BillyB]

She had no job or special skills, had a 6 year old son and no place to live yet she got nothing.

Based off the guidelines I linked for your state, your ex should've received something. You got lucky. Since the women shelter provided an attorney for your wife, did he/she even ask for spousal support? You know those shelters get funding based on the amount of people they help? The more people able to live life on their own and leaving the shelter, the less money they get. Also up to 10% of the grant money $$$ they receive can go to staff. Like I said earlier, I'd be very surprised if a judge put LD's wife on the street penniless like a judge did to your ex.

I can't remember your whole divorce story but didn't your wife already have another man taking care of her during the divorce?

[Gator]

Mies, I wish to revisit your earlier post.   You gave a persuasive argument in support of women and blaming the men.  However, my experience is that both spouses are culpable if a marriage fails.

And then he says "I suppose she wants to stay in USA and I believe she will be able to file immigration documents on her own." Any normal person would discuss these issues with their spouse BEFORE starting a divorce proceedings. In great detail. Ideally - go together to the immigration lawyer, and ask the lawyer to outline for them the best course of actions, make sure that wife understands that she will be OK, nothing bad will happen to her.

We do not know whether LD did this or not.  In any event, LD's wife will receive advice.  First, it will come from  the underground railroad of RW in her city, the same RW who advise other RW to have a RM lover on the side.   The RW network will direct her to retain an aggressive attorney.  The attorney will hire an interpreter, possibly a Russian-speaking attorney (there are many to choose from).  And the attorney if aggressive will work the case, racking up a significant legal bill for which LD has no control yet must pay 100%.

Instead this man basically kicks out his wife without documents and without income on the streets (ok, he didn't do it, he told her that she can live in the house until the divorce is over)....

You are correct, he didn't kick her to the street.  He even warned her that someone was coming to serve divorce papers.  She bolted immediately before being served.  She later returned to collect her possessions plus some of LD's.

....and suddenly on hop of her own psychological problems)....

The fact she used a psychiatrist in the FSU is notable.  Mies, you know the mental healthcare situation in the FSU.  The capacity to deal with mental health is almost nil, as if FSU people do not have mental conditions.   Problems go undiagnosed, much less treated.  Instead of receiving therapy, many people self-medicate with alcohol.

We do not know her mental condition, and some can be very stressful to the healthy spouse.  LD's wife at least knew she needed therapy.  Medication?  Who knows?  My experience is FSUW avoid mental health meds, believing them "tranquilizers," expecting electrical shocks and frontal lobotomy to follow.  In most cases therapy without some form of medication is nothing more than baling a seriously leaking boat. 

I am speculating.  In summary, we do not know and should not know the specifics.  Nevertheless, LD impresses me as someone who work go to great length to help his wife rather than treating her as a pet that became too difficult to maintain.  So we should not put LD in the basket of bad AM husbands (and there are plenty) without proof.  Nor should we blame LD's wife. 

We always advise AM to know their woman before deciding to marry.  The FSUW have the same responsibility to know their man before marriage.  It is difficult to do in a few weeks of face time. 

[Gator]

I can't remember your whole divorce story but didn't your wife already have another man taking care of her during the divorce?

IIRC, everything pointed to his wife being predisposed to find a mule to get to the US, a plan she made long before meeting Maxx.  And along came Maxx looking for love. 

She knew of the domestic abuse trump card, and once in the US she faked her injuries and called the police.    IIRC, the marriage agency knew of her plan before they introduced Maxx, and the agency possibly received payment from her. 

I spoke with Maxx on several occasions.  He is indeed a good guy.   He became the innocent victim in this domestic abuse horror story, long before there was VAWA.   The ordeal of being charged with a crime set him back emotionally for years.  I surmise he welcomed the divorce as part of the good riddance step. 

This happened a long, long time ago (well before RWD) and Maxx did the AM community a valuable service of disclosing the full story. 

[Gator]

And you know this how? 

Inference from reading his posts including those from over a year ago when he was an active member at RWD.  I shit you not. 

Or one could be like you and have the blanket presumption that all AM not carrying a Democrat Party card are misogynists and guilty until proven innocent.

You can only hope. Still, Mies' version carries more weight.

There you go again.   LOL

[lonedrake]

I am upset and sad that things came to this. I understand how difficult this is for her. It is at least ten times harder for her. If this was possible to work out between us...that is what I would do. I don't even believe she is making up stories....I believe she believes this 100%.

She is staying at another Ukrainian woman's house( I believe).

Someone one here said I should not talk about this. I think I should. I suspect many guys that get married to FSUW will talk about how wonderful their relationships are, but disappear when things go south. My thoughts are no matter how well you think you know someone....you will never know how things will go when they move to a new country and have so many adjustments to make. Something to think about.

 I wonder about the mistakes I made and what I could have done differently to change this outcome. Other times I believe the outcome would have been the same regardless of what I did or didn't do.

[Muzh]

Inference from reading his posts including those from over a year ago when he was an active member at RWD.  I shit you not. 

Or one could be like you and have the blanket presumption that all AM not carrying a Democrat Party card are misogynists and guilty until proven innocent.



There you go again.   LOL

LMAO


I didn't call anyone a misogynist. Funny how you can "read between the lines" in some cases and are totally blind for others.


My point was simple. Mies was giving the FSUW's perspective and maybe LD could take some useful advice from it.


And then, you can "read between the lines" from the male members and determine how sage their advice was. 

[BillyB]

If this was possible to work out between us...that is what I would do.

Don't get any ideas about contacting her to convince her to give things a second chance. Be cautious if she contacts you wanting to meet and talk about making the marriage work. NO meetings without attorneys. She sent you a photo of a protective order that has yet to be signed. She made a statement that you need to stay away or you will pay.

Someone one here said I should not talk about this. I think I should.

If you decide to share more, maintain being anonymous and for those here who knows your name, please do not address Lonedrake by his real name. LD, you may have an upcoming trial and anything you say here that's read by the wrong person may be used against you.

I wonder about the mistakes I made and what I could have done differently to change this outcome. Other times I believe the outcome would have been the same regardless of what I did or didn't do.

It seems even after over a year living with her, you still don't understand her enough to make the marriage flow in the right direction or know if the outcome would even change if you did the right things. Maybe she didn't want the marriage to flow in the right direction and had a plan to leave from the beginning. It's speculation but I do know if two good people get together, good things happen..... even if they have to say goodbye to each other in the end.

[Faux Pas]

I am upset and sad that things came to this. I understand how difficult this is for her. It is at least ten times harder for her. If this was possible to work out between us...that is what I would do. I don't even believe she is making up stories....I believe she believes this 100%.

She is staying at another Ukrainian woman's house( I believe).

Someone one here said I should not talk about this. I think I should. I suspect many guys that get married to FSUW will talk about how wonderful their relationships are, but disappear when things go south. My thoughts are no matter how well you think you know someone....you will never know how things will go when they move to a new country and have so many adjustments to make. Something to think about.

 I wonder about the mistakes I made and what I could have done differently to change this outcome. Other times I believe the outcome would have been the same regardless of what I did or didn't do.

It's okay to talk about it on this board. As much as you wish to share anyway. This is an excellent sounding board that can serve in some degree as support for you. There are others here who have been in your shoes. Albeit, not exactly. I caution you to not take any of this free legal advice to seriously. Maybe they know what they are talking about but the chances are, they don't know dick.

Listen to your lawyer. That is what you are paying them for. My advice is; if you can see yourself doing it and things haven't gone too far South fix this this marriage. You both got married for some reason and if it's love, you can get through it. I would caution you to suck it up and swallow that pride.

If it is beyond repair assure her and do everything you can to help her through immigration, financial and emotional support to help her assimilate and get settled. That might take a year, might take 5 years. I remember some conversations with you and thinking you to be a stand up guy. It doesn't sound to me to be "war", yet anyway and if it ever reaches that point, remember she came here to be with you and she deserves your assistance. Do the right thing despite what a few asshats on the forum think and advise.

[tfcrew]

    Is it possible to just get this marriage annulled?

    As far as a woman attorney goes.....Hillary got child molesters off [and laughed about it]

[BillyB]

Listen to your lawyer. That is what you are paying them for.

LD's wife will listen to her lawyer and that is what LD will be paying for too. I doubt both attorneys will try to get LD and his wife to divorce amicably unless they see he has no money and no assets and you can be certain they will both read the law differently and can't agree on every issue so off to trial they will go. Lawyers know if you're at the point of hiring them, you probably want to go to war since the parties can't agree on things on their own. If LD came here earlier, I would suggest he discuss divorce with his wife without an attorney. Because he hired one, someone  probably told her she needs to get one so she doesn't get shafted. If I had a friend who told me their spouse got an attorney, I would recommend him doing the same thing otherwise he can get ran over in court. 

LD's wife notified LD about a protection order she wants to slap on him. She is probably telling her attorney some terrible things about LD to validate the reason she needs the protection order. The only good advice LD's attorney said to him so far is to have zero contact with his wife.

One thing LD needs to understand about attorneys are that when they go home, they think about getting paid more often than the welfare of their clients and he has more of a say than his attorney in the direction his divorce is to go. Let the attorney make all the decisions, it can get very ugly, drag on, and get very expensive.

[ML]

Any guesses why lawyers drive Mercedes. BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, etc.?

Because they don't know how to repair a Ford or Chevy ?

[mies]

Mies, have you been in the US so long that you have forgotten the frequent case of FSUM abandoning his wife and child? 

After giving it more thought, I remembered a quite similar situation in FSU reality: a person from rural area/province marrying a person living in the capital during "propiska" times. It was believed that those rural people are mainly gold-diggers, going after the real estate in the capital. Their con scheme was believed to be: marry a person from the capital, get local registration, divorce, and take half of the property.
Of course, that did not happen in 100% of cases, but the residents of Soviet capitals were always super proud of themselves and always vary of marrying a "provincial" gal or guy. Especially the parents were against such "unequal" marriages. It was also believed that those "illegal aliens" in the capital were absolutely ruthless during the divorce process, and cut all ties to their ex-spouse after the divorce is finalized. a popular urban legend.
 

[Maxx2]

Based off the guidelines I linked for your state, your ex should've received something. You got lucky. Since the women shelter provided an attorney for your wife, did he/she even ask for spousal support? You know those shelters get funding based on the amount of people they help? The more people able to live life on their own and leaving the shelter, the less money they get. Also up to 10% of the grant money $$$ they receive can go to staff. Like I said earlier, I'd be very surprised if a judge put LD's wife on the street penniless like a judge did to your ex.

I can't remember your whole divorce story but didn't your wife already have another man taking care of her during the divorce?

She asked for $2000 a month during the restraining order trial but the judge said that should be negotiated during the divorce. I stood firm, even kept her wedding/engagement ring that I found in the drawer that she left behind when she went partying with her Russian girlfriend during the last day of our "marriage". The same judge was the divorce judge and he could have given her spousal maintenance but gave her nothing. I suspect he knew she was using me for a green card.


There might have been another man. There was a 'H. Chavez' all over the caller I.D. Perhaps Hugo?    I really didn't care much. I came to the realization that I may have to divorce her about a week after she got here. It was that obvious. So I started the legal prep work for that 5 weeks after her arrival. I had seen immigration and divorce attorneys in secret and got their advice.


During the divorce I made my story known on these boards. That attracted a lot men who had been or were going through something similar. It became a hobby of mine helping them. Soon I was helping American women with their foreign husbands  who were making false abuse claims against them. I even helped some foreign women who were truly being abused. Here is to that. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13294.msg263136#msg263136


Frankly all of this is draining on me so I usually avoid this subject. I've been out of it about 5 years now. I'll just say that I have known a number of guys in Minnesota and other States and spousal support is usually not given on such short term marriages. Then when it is it is for a fairly short time and not very much. The judges know these women will somehow survive. It's the men and especially the American women who seem to suffer the most in these affairs. Almost all feel betrayed by their government. I've been told this over and over again. They can understand and come to terms about their wives using them but the U.S. system of dealing with this issue is the most upsetting to them.

[GregfromGa]

I am upset and sad that things came to this. I understand how difficult this is for her. It is at least ten times harder for her. If this was possible to work out between us...that is what I would do. I don't even believe she is making up stories....I believe she believes this 100%.

She is staying at another Ukrainian woman's house( I believe).

Someone one here said I should not talk about this. I think I should. I suspect many guys that get married to FSUW will talk about how wonderful their relationships are, but disappear when things go south. My thoughts are no matter how well you think you know someone....you will never know how things will go when they move to a new country and have so many adjustments to make. Something to think about.

 I wonder about the mistakes I made and what I could have done differently to change this outcome. Other times I believe the outcome would have been the same regardless of what I did or didn't do.

.   Don't beat yourself up about the mistakes you think you might have made. I know I didn't change. I know what a good person and father I was. I was married for 7 years. It turned out I didn't know her at all. She changed. She became her miserable mother  it took me 3 years to divorce her. She went through 3 lawyers. I got lucky that she got pregnant. She stayed married 5 months to that guy.

[BillyB]

She asked for $2000 a month during the restraining order trial but the judge said that should be negotiated during the divorce.

A judge or commissioner can direct a person to pay spousal support before a trial if a couple is living separate. Did your wife have an attorney or did she try to represent herself? Judges make people regret representing themselves.

The same judge was the divorce judge and he could have given her spousal maintenance but gave her nothing. I suspect he knew she was using me for a green card.

You had a bad judge. Good judge for you but he was a bad judge for society. You know how many people would be in jail if being suspicious about someone is guilty is all the evidence that's needed? Your ex was not on trial for using you for a green card so she can't be found guilty by the judge of fraud. Your state doesn't punish people for marital misconduct anyway when it comes to determining spousal support. Even if your ex used and cheated on you, she can't get more. Even if you beat the crap out of her, you're not supposed to pay more than your fair share for her living expenses except if she needs counseling and has other medical expenses caused by the abuse.

You mentioned your judge is cozy with the local women's shelter. These shelters need grants and donations to survive. They have to pay rent on the building, buy food and clothes. If they don't have enough government/donators help, they may have to close down which is not a good thing. The person in charge of the shelter probably had a talk with the local judges to help keep a good thing open by asking them to keep attendance up whenever possible.

Although your judge didn't punish you with spousal support, he punished the tax payers. Another reason he was a bad judge.

I even helped some foreign women who were truly being abused. Here is to that. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13294.msg263136#msg263136

You are correct that because the husband didn't help his wife file for the green card in a timely manner, based on the laws of our land, she was abused and deserved to get help from the USCIS.

Frankly all of this is draining on me so I usually avoid this subject. I've been out of it about 5 years now.

Your divorce happened before I arrived on the boards. I do remember you talking a lot about it and helping guys out. I also remember it was affecting you emotionally even years after the divorce so it's a good thing if you let the past remain in the past.

[GregfromGa]

Greg, the one who is unreasonable and illogical is you.
She was having issues while living in Ukraine, before coming to USA. Relocation and adaptation to a foreign culture made things worse. But the core of the problem was still in her past. How can an average American counselor relate to the life in Ukraine? Can he show it on the map, at least?

I would also appreciate if while you have issues with an FSU woman, would refrain from expanding your skewed judgement to all of them, me in particular.

Mies, I think you might have the wrong one. I've never addressed you that I can remember until yesterday. As far as a skewed judgement, well my opinions were earned and warranted. I have a friend whose Ukrainian wife seeks marital advice from a gypsy woman in some village outside of Poltava. I've spoken with a many of American guys that have been through divorces. It's painfully amazing just how parallel our stories of sheer idiocy runs in regards to our ex wives and divorce and kids. Sure I'm sure there are success stories but I venture to say most doesn't work. As I've stated I don't recommend process. Very very few posters that come here,get married,get a divorce come back here to give a report. Most lick their wounds, saddle up again or move on and never look east again. I commend the ones that come back and share so others can maybe learn. Unless you have been through divorce with a FSU lady then I have to say your opinion on said matter loses some credibility.

[mies]

Mies, I wish to revisit your earlier post.   You gave a persuasive argument in support of women and blaming the men.

absolutely not. My comment was not blaming the men. What I said was that LD dug a hole, stepped into it, and now he is not sure how deep the hole {the way he handled divorce} is and how long and how painfully he will be falling.

 

However, my experience is that both spouses are culpable if a marriage fails.

again. My posts in this thread are not about whose fault is in failed marriage. My comments are only addressing the fact how did LD deal with his failed marriage. He knew his wife had emotional issues. He knew she is fully dependent on him in this country, but wants to stay in the country. When he got fed up with the problems in the marriage he dropped his wife like hot potato. I don't know what warranted such rush. I understand that it is difficult to live with psychologically/emotionally unstable person. Was it reasonable to expect that divorce proceedings would make the wife more emotionally stable?

When there is a person on the emotional verge, and you have to interact with this psychotic individual, do you try to calm them down and sort things out peacefully, or do you provoke confrontation and conflict and act in a threatening way? Have you ever seen how psychiatrists talk to their patient? It's not a rocket science after all. Basic common sense.

[mies]

Mies, I think you might have the wrong one. I've never addressed you that I can remember until yesterday. As far as a skewed judgement, well my opinions were earned and warranted. I have a friend whose Ukrainian wife seeks marital advice from a gypsy woman in some village outside of Poltava. I've spoken with a many of American guys that have been through divorces. It's painfully amazing just how parallel our stories of sheer idiocy runs in regards to our ex wives and divorce and kids. Sure I'm sure there are success stories but I venture to say most doesn't work. As I've stated I don't recommend process. Very very few posters that come here,get married,get a divorce come back here to give a report. Most lick their wounds, saddle up again or move on and never look east again. I commend the ones that come back and share so others can maybe learn. Unless you have been through divorce with a FSU lady then I have to say your opinion on said matter loses some credibility.

perhaps, due to adverse selection? on either one or both sides...

In order to go through a divorce with an FSU lady I first need to divorce my husband, then become a lesbian, find a gay FSU lady, marry her, and only then I will be able to divorce her. Too many steps, too bad, you will never recognize my opinions on FSU women as credible... (sniff sniff)

[GregfromGa]

perhaps, due to adverse selection? on either one or both sides...

In order to go through a divorce with an FSU lady I first need to divorce my husband, then become a lesbian, find a gay FSU lady, marry her, and only then I will be able to divorce her. Too many steps, too bad, you will never recognize my opinions on FSU women as credible... (sniff sniff)
[/quote.   

Don't worry Mies but no you can't be a member of our little club. It's a private club. It's members are a hardened group. We have all traveled a lonesome road and stood in that long grey line. Obviously I can't speak for all of our members but I wou venture to say that most members could not care less the opinions of non members of said subject. Girlfriends don't count. A divorce with kids gets you a seat at the head table and more feathers in your hat. It's not a club we are proud of. It was very expensive emotionally as well as monetarily. 

[Maxx2]

perhaps, due to adverse selection? on either one or both sides...

In order to go through a divorce with an FSU lady I first need to divorce my husband, then become a lesbian, find a gay FSU lady, marry her, and only then I will be able to divorce her. Too many steps, too bad, you will never recognize my opinions on FSU women as credible... (sniff sniff)

You could probably do that now since the Supreme Court decision on Gay Marriage. Things have changed a lot since my crack up 13 years ago.