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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 129368 times)

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Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #225 on: June 27, 2016, 07:44:15 AM »

Finding this give and take more frustrating than it is worth,  I am silenced.  Better that than saying what I really think.
most of what you say is covering up how you really are anyway.


Fathertime!   
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #226 on: June 27, 2016, 07:49:47 AM »
FT, some feel the way you and Bo does. Others feel Obama insulted the Uk using fear tactics to sway their vote. You ALL are right to feel the way you do. I think if Obama had a chance to do the speech over, he would change a few things because a few people were insulted by it.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #227 on: June 27, 2016, 07:58:37 AM »
Patrick--there is a vast difference from actually knowing and understanding  on any topic- and the contrast with what can be googled or read in Wiki . :)

The latter is the domain of forum pretend know it alls-- particularly as practiced on rua by the legend in his own matchbox FiFi.


Except that moby is a UK citizen and has crossed many UK borders.


I didn't google or read it on wiki.  This has been widely reported in the UK press over the past six months. 


Illegal immigration will change not one whit if the UK leaves the EU, as it has zero to do with the EU.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #228 on: June 27, 2016, 08:46:25 AM »
According to USA laws, there are no illegal immigrants in the borders of the USA, who have committed crimes, served their time, and who remain inside the borders of the USA, as they were all deported instead of being released back into the community.

No, that is inaccurate.  American law does not state that there are no illegal immigrants in the US, nor that there are no illegal immigrants serving time in US prisons.   American law sets out the parameters of how immigrants are to enter the US, and how they can be deported.  How the US chooses to enforce immigration laws, or whether it chooses to enforce them at all, is a completely different matter.

Quote
Get your brain out of "legality" mode and into "reality" mode, it might help your cognitive processing.

The reality is that immigration into the UK by non EU members exceeds that by EU members.  That is by UK government statistics.  How, exactly, will that change by leaving the EU?

Quote
Google News search on "Brexit immigration" or any other terms you desire... it's quite clear that immigration was a big part of the debate. 

Net immigration by EU members into the UK in 2015 was 184,000 in a country of 64.1 million.  The total number of EU members living in the UK is 3 million.  Of that number, 1 million are students, most of whom will not settle in the UK.  [As an aside, there are 1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU.  Of that number, 400,000 are pensioners.]

Here's a fairly comprehensive site on the issue -

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migration-flows-a8-and-other-eu-migrants-and-uk

From a Parliamentary report -

Quote
In 2014, 13% of people migrating to the UK were British nationals, 42% were nationals of other EU countries, and 45% were nationals of non-EU countries.

The numbers are similar for 2015, though haven't been finalized.

From the BBC -
Quote
The estimated employment level of EU nationals (excluding British) living in the UK was 2.1 million in January to March 2016 - 224,000 higher than the same quarter last year, according to the Labour Force Survey.

British nationals in employment increased by 185,000 to 28.2 million and non-EU nationals in employment increased by 5,000 to 1.2 million.


Over half of the growth in employment over the last year was accounted for by foreign nationals.

There were 630,000 National Insurance number registrations by EU nationals in the year to March 2016, an increase of 1,000 on the previous year. For non-EU nationals, there were 195,000 registrations, an increase of 2,000 on the previous year.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199

Here is a site with a breakdown of EU citizens in the UK, by country, and UK residents in the EU, by country -

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

So based on these statistics, and given that over half of net immigration to the UK is by non EU members, please explain how this immigration is "out of control" and how the UK will "take back sovereignty" over its borders.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 09:16:17 AM by Boethius »
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Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #229 on: June 27, 2016, 09:16:54 AM »

after watching the speech, I will have to retract my earlier comments regarding Obama being inappropriate....what we have here is a a few people distorting his comments once again, I should have known....  In that speech Obama merely stated the realities of the situation.   He went out of his way to mention that obviously it was there choice, and that he hoped they would stay in the EU...No big threats like others later purport.

Obama's [edit: controversial] statements are not contained anywhere within that link. I'm not sure what that was you were given (in error, I'm sure). It looks like a POTUS opinion editorial to me but it ain't the right one...Yep, having just proof read my link for content before posting he even mentions the op-ed you were linked in the transcript.

Here is the speech and Q&A transcript that actually contain his statements...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/04/22/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-cameron-joint-press

Brass



« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 10:36:20 AM by Brasscasing »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #230 on: June 27, 2016, 09:46:33 AM »

Online Gator

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #231 on: June 27, 2016, 09:59:57 AM »
most of what you say is covering up how you really are anyway.

Okay smartass.  Because you believe you know me, what was I thinking and refusing to say? 


Don't be shy.  Do not deflect.  This is an opportunity to demonstrate your intelligence. 

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #232 on: June 27, 2016, 10:07:44 AM »
Investment notes by Argus Research regarding Brexit. 


(sorry, link doesn't work)

A summary of why the sky is not following.  The US is relatively safe haven.

Quote
Watch Fundamentals Amid Gyrations

Stocks fell sharply last week when the UK voted to leave the EU. We'll review market fundamentals, as recent market activity can create buying opportunities. Our U.S. GDP forecast for 2016 remains 2.0%, as we expect stronger growth in the upcoming quarters. Global GDP forecasts currently call for growth of 3.2% in 2016, with Emerging Market growth of 4.1%. Both of these rates are higher than the growth rates in 2015. The outlook for 2017, according to the IMF, is 3.5% for global growth and 4.5% for EM growth. Growth in Developed Countries is forecast at 1.9% in 2016 and 2.0% in 2017. Turmoil in Europe could cut 20-40 basis points from these rates over the next two years, with declines most concentrated in the UK and Europe. Interest rates have fallen in the wake of the Brexit vote, not only to reflect lower economic growth expectations but in reaction to a global flight to quality. We expect the Fed to keep rates low into 2017. The decline in stock prices Friday and the increase in bond prices creates an even more undervalued status for stocks. At current prices, stocks are about 15% below fair value. We note again that bear markets don't generally start when stocks are priced at such a discount to bonds.

I disagree with the "stocks are about 15% below fair value' opinion."  Everything else seems reasonable.   
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 10:20:54 AM by Gator »

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #233 on: June 27, 2016, 10:36:16 AM »
Obama's statements are not contained anywhere within that link. I'm not sure what that was you were given (in error, I'm sure). It looks like a POTUS opinion editorial to me but it ain't the right one...Yep, having just proof read my link for content before posting he even mentions the op-ed you were linked in the transcript.

Here is the speech and Q&A transcript that actually contain his statements...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/04/22/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-cameron-joint-press

Brass

I took and read his remarks as a veiled threat. I would think many Brits did too

Offline The Natural

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #234 on: June 27, 2016, 03:26:07 PM »

Offline Slumba

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #235 on: June 27, 2016, 03:42:07 PM »
No, that is inaccurate.  American law does not state that there are no illegal immigrants in the US, nor that there are no illegal immigrants serving time in US prisons.   American law sets out the parameters of how immigrants are to enter the US, and how they can be deported.  How the US chooses to enforce immigration laws, or whether it chooses to enforce them at all, is a completely different matter.

You are exactly correct!  My comment was tongue-in-cheek. 

"How the EU and UK chooses to enforce immigration laws, or whether it chooses to enforce them at all" was exactly the point I was making.  Reality not legality.


The reality is that immigration into the UK by non EU members exceeds that by EU members.  That is by UK government statistics.  How, exactly, will that change by leaving the EU?

Net immigration by EU members into the UK in 2015 was 184,000 in a country of 64.1 million.  The total number of EU members living in the UK is 3 million.  Of that number, 1 million are students, most of whom will not settle in the UK.  [As an aside, there are 1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU.  Of that number, 400,000 are pensioners.]

Here's a fairly comprehensive site on the issue -

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migration-flows-a8-and-other-eu-migrants-and-uk

From a Parliamentary report -

The numbers are similar for 2015, though haven't been finalized.


Without the 2015 actions by Merkel etc., which would coincide with the surge of non-Syrian and some Syrian migrants, I don't think Brexit would have been voted for in the same way.

It appears 2014 numbers are at this point more than 18 months old. 18 months ago there were not nearly as many people who were pro-Brexit.
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Offline msmobyone

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #236 on: June 27, 2016, 04:35:19 PM »
Although UK didn't take their fair share if Syrian immigrants, that may be due to the fact Brexit was on the plate.

BillyB

please stop posting daft

The UK had not signed up to an EU Directive -  whereby member states promised to 'share the load 'of any migrant crisis'... long before ..

You are as ignorant as many of those who voted Brexit thinking Turks would be getting visas .... and the UK  economy would improve

The GBP has fallen 15 percent against the Greenback in a week

Mr Bamford of JCB excavator fame will be pleased ..he was one of few UK businesses that supported a Brexit..he can sell his diggers for 15 percent less and still make the same profit..... until new trade tariffs kick in
 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 12:12:53 AM by msmobyone »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #237 on: June 27, 2016, 05:07:54 PM »
Without the 2015 actions by Merkel etc., which would coincide with the surge of non-Syrian and some Syrian migrants, I don't think Brexit would have been voted for in the same way.

It appears 2014 numbers are at this point more than 18 months old. 18 months ago there were not nearly as many people who were pro-Brexit.


I agree.  However, it's my understanding it will takes 8 years to obtain German citizenship.  Further, German social benefits are as good as those in the UK, so those refugees in Germany likely won't be moving to the UK.
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Offline Muzh

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #238 on: June 27, 2016, 05:49:43 PM »
Unlike Bush, Obama is intelligent.   Both Bush and Obama made big mistakes, yet each time the liberal leaning media has given Obama a pass.    So what is the difference to explain the supposed rancor? 
 

In comparison with Bush, Obama is arrogant, undemocratic to the point of excluding half of America, secretive, and dishonest.  He may be hypocritical and I could nominate others.  Enough!   These faults are not why I dislike Obama.  I dislike him because he further divided the country, mostly by not being the leader who would step in and fix the festering partisan problem.   Leadership starts at the top.  He could have succeeded.  Obama missed the opportunity of a lifetime.  Race had nothing to do with Obama failing to be the man we needed. 

In 2009 I merely questioned Obama.  Today, I really dislike the man, more than I should because in a way I agree with some of his policies. 

Even with all of Obama's faults and mistakes, his approval ratings have climbed here in his final year although the economy  that never fully recovered is now on the edge of teetering.  Why did his ratings climb?  He looks good when compared  with his two potential successors.  God help America.

Because I am near speechless, the effectiveness of this silencing tactic is demonstrated.  Between being distracted by your absurdity and my watching a ball game, I missed bidding on something my wife wanted at a local auction.  I did buy her some nice  .....

Finding this give and take more frustrating than it is worth,  I am silenced.  Better that than saying what I really think.


Bla bla bla, liberal media, bla bla bla arrogant, bla bla bla leadership.


Yea yea yea.


First, the liberal media. When the press reports things that are not the sound bites people like to hear, they are lamestream meadia. However, when they report "facts" that are verifiably UNtrue but is what some want to hear, then they are refered to "fair and balanced." Check with our resident conspiracy theorist who immediately came to your defense. He is the classic accuser of "lamestream" media because the media ignores the bullshit posted on the internet as "facts."


Arrogant you say. My, you are having a big problem with your short-term memory. Never heard of Dubya strutting here and there. Arrogant bufoon and he still was treated as a President BECAUSE of the office he held. Can you say the same about the Nigr? Like "You Lie!!" while addressing Congress. Or how about "Our intent is to make him a one-term president" not even 30 days in office. Or the many times he wanted to meet in the middle and the alumimun foil hat members of Congress would revolt while giving the Nigr a one-finger salute. Yes, indeed. He deserved it, after all, there is nothing as bad as an arrogant Nigr. Isn't it? Keep in mind that these fools also staged a coup against a Conservative because he was trying to work with the Nigr.


I really do not give a rats ass if you find yourself speechless. That would be a first. But guilt trips don't work on me. You want to keep your eyes closed, that is your prerrogative. But don't come to me pontificating this nonsense that your civility has been assaulted. As I said earlier, I have more respect for those who say it as it is.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 05:59:48 PM by Muzh »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #239 on: June 27, 2016, 06:43:03 PM »
A preview of this discussion if continued. 


ME:  Blah, blah, blah.

YOU:  Nigr, nigr, nigr......YOU ARE A RACIST!



The preview sucks!  So let's not go there. 



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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #240 on: June 27, 2016, 06:55:22 PM »
BillyB

please stop posting daft

The UK had not signed up to an EU Directive -  whereby member states promised to 'share the load 'of any migrant crisis'... long before ..

You are as ignorant as many of those who voted Brexit thinking Turks would be getting visas .... and the UK  economy would improve

 
 

You think Merkel is risking her job taking in a million refugees without asking EU leaders to help pull the load on refugees? Of course she asked Cameron and he told her a decision on that will have to wait after the vote on Brexit.

Between EU and UK we'll see who has the better economy in 10 years. I think only one of the two will be left standing. The bureaucrats in Brussels is working themselves out of a job. One thing I do know about all those expert economists who say EU is good for UK is that they aren't recommending the EU is good for America too and should join. Think about that.
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Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #241 on: June 27, 2016, 07:04:53 PM »

Bla bla bla, liberal media, bla bla bla arrogant, bla bla bla leadership.


Yea yea yea.



Oh come on, he has to parrot the same excuse about the 'liberal media'!





 

I really do not give a rats ass if you find yourself speechless. That would be a first. But guilt trips don't work on me. You want to keep your eyes closed, that is your prerrogative. But don't come to me pontificating this nonsense that your civility has been assaulted. As I said earlier, I have more respect for those who say it as it is.


phony 'fair-mindedness' and civility is all it is..nothing more...


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #242 on: June 27, 2016, 07:08:35 PM »
Obama's [edit: controversial] statements are not contained anywhere within that link. I'm not sure what that was you were given (in error, I'm sure). It looks like a POTUS opinion editorial to me but it ain't the right one...Yep, having just proof read my link for content before posting he even mentions the op-ed you were linked in the transcript.

Here is the speech and Q&A transcript that actually contain his statements...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/04/22/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-cameron-joint-press

Brass


I'm not sure if you viewed the link that boethius provided but it is the same speech.


I'm on pretty high alert when the US is using unreasonable pressure on another nation and in this case I don't see it..  The transcript you provided and the youtube are the same comments....In watching it, I didn't view it as a threat at all....Clearly Obama didn't want the brexit to happen, and he said so, but he did not threaten like others were saying here...


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #243 on: June 27, 2016, 07:12:21 PM »

I'm not sure if you viewed the link that boethius provided but it is the same speech.


I'm on pretty high alert when the US is using unreasonable pressure on another nation and in this case I don't see it..  The transcript you provided and the youtube are the same comments....In watching it, I didn't view it as a threat at all....Clearly Obama didn't want the brexit to happen, and he said so, but he did not threaten like others were saying here...


Fathertime!


I just read Brass's link.



I didn't take what Obama said as a threat.  I did take it as coercion but was probably done at the behest of Cameron.  Obama was probably telling the truth that any treaties with the UK will be at the bottom of the "todo" list. 

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #244 on: June 27, 2016, 07:42:24 PM »

FT, everytime I read statement like this from you I wonder what is your opinion the POTUS is to do? The leader of the strongest army in the world. What should he do?


Because we have the strongest military doesn't give us license to help overthrow presidents we don't like, which is what I think we have been doing...I think generally speaking we should be way more reserved with the use of our military.  We have become an aggressor state in many ways.


Fathertime!     
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #245 on: June 27, 2016, 07:51:26 PM »
Here's how the UK can expect to be treated by the frumpy frau and the rest of her EU posse for the remainder of the Brexit process.

EU capos hold a circle jerk and agree to some punitive measures. Which in itself is surprising because normally these clowns couldn't organize a two man run to a three man shitter if their lives depended on it...

European leaders rule out informal Brexit talks before article 50 is triggered

..."Decision deals major blow to leave campaign leaders, who show no sign of wanting to launch formal proceedings"...

..."The leaders of Germany, France and Italy have insisted that no Brexit talks of any kind can begin until Britain has formally applied to leave the European Union, which EU officials expect to happen before the end of the year.

On the eve of a crunch summit in Brussels, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said she, president François Hollande of France and Italy’s prime minister, Matteo Renzi, had agreed at their meeting in Berlin that “there will be no formal or informal talks about Britain’s exit” until the UK has triggered article 50, the untested procedure that governs a member state leaving"...
 
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/europe-leaders-crunch-talks-brexit-fallout

So in typical EU hypocritical fashion these idiots have already met formally about Brexit to announce there will be no informal or formal meetings about Brexit.

What else have these back stabbing hooligans been up to?...Oh wait....

The EU Plans to Move Its Bank Regulator out of London After Brexit Vote

..."The EU is preparing to move its European Banking Authority from London following Britain’s vote to leave the Union, EU officials said on Sunday, setting up a race led by Paris and Frankfurt to host the regulator.

Coming a day after Britain’s Jonathan Hill resigned and was replaced as EU financial services chief by the Commission’s “Mr. Euro” Valdis Dombrovskis, the move underlines how the City of London can expect to be frozen out of EU financial regulation—and possibly from Europe’s capital markets—depending on the terms of Brexit."...

http://fortune.com/2016/06/27/eu-bank-regulator-london/

So it's not OK for the UK to confer with the EU to smooth the way but the EU can meet and plan/implement measures as long as it's in their favor. I get it. :rolleyes:

Wow. So far the people of the UK have been threatened by Obama, are enduring a run up to punitive actions from the EU, for days have been continually insulted, slandered/libeled by the worldwide left wing media .... and all this just for exercising their sovereign right to determine their own future.

Now, think about this for a moment, folks. The UK is the most powerful nation in Europe. Imagine if a mid power EU country had the temerity to stick up it's hand and say "Excuse me but we're thinking of exit as well".

I'd guess it'd be kinda like the neighborhood restaurant owner telling the local mafia don he can't afford to pay any more protection money...

Brass
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 08:19:17 PM by Brasscasing »
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Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #246 on: June 27, 2016, 08:05:50 PM »

I'm not sure if you viewed the link that boethius provided but it is the same speech.

I'm on pretty high alert when the US is using unreasonable pressure on another nation and in this case I don't see it..  The transcript you provided and the youtube are the same comments....In watching it, I didn't view it as a threat at all....Clearly Obama didn't want the brexit to happen, and he said so, but he did not threaten like others were saying here...

1. That link does not lead to a youtube vid. It leads to an op-ed... but it's not important.

2. Veiled, coercive, overt, covert, solicited or unsolicited; it doesn't matter. It was a threat of 'bad things can happen if you don't stay in the gang' and completely inappropriate.

No foreign head of state should be making speeches in another sovereign nation trying to swing the vote one way or the other during an election or referendum campaign *period*

Brass
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 08:27:50 PM by Brasscasing »
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #247 on: June 27, 2016, 08:46:00 PM »

I just read Brass's link.



I didn't take what Obama said as a threat.  I did take it as coercion but was probably done at the behest of Cameron.  Obama was probably telling the truth that any treaties with the UK will be at the bottom of the "todo" list.

Perhaps that is true for Obama but, UK is still UK and for most administrations going forward, likely will be treated no differently. I suspect there is much hyperbole about

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #248 on: June 27, 2016, 09:19:48 PM »
Perhaps that is true for Obama but, UK is still UK and for most administrations going forward, likely will be treated no differently. I suspect there is much hyperbole about


Right, I don't see the US treating the UK any different.  If there is enough incentive, any treaties will become a bigger priority.


Peter Schiff had an interesting take on the fallout.  He thought it was more of a self-fulfilling prophecy happening.  All the gloom and doom to get people to vote to stay ended up making it happen when the vote came out to leave.


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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #249 on: June 27, 2016, 09:26:36 PM »
UK will need 2 years to divorce the EU. Obama probably has people working on a trade agreement right now. UK won't be at the back of the line as Obama falsely warned to sway voters. Two years from now America and the UK will be trading without missing a beat.
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