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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 127767 times)

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Offline Изумруд

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #150 on: June 25, 2016, 02:18:23 PM »
A closely run result: 52% for Brexit, 48% for Remain.

Remain groups have intimated that they'll request another referendum in a couple of years' time.

Strong Remain-voting areas like Northern Ireland and Scotland are agitating for a first (N.Irish) and second (Scots) secession referendum.

NI is not agitating for secession: voting Remain was one thing but leaving the Union is a totally different ball game; the loyalists still hold the majority in Ulster and they would never vote for a United Ireland.  In fact, being British is more important to them than most it is to many English people.  I actually worry that a very fragile peace has been created by this Brexit result, especially with the 12th coming up.

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #151 on: June 25, 2016, 02:55:01 PM »
especially with the 12th coming up.
Which is?
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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #152 on: June 25, 2016, 06:41:40 PM »
Which is?

I thought you would know that part of history, Sandro.  :)  It's also known as Orangeman's Day - the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne (1690), where William of Orange's Protestant army defeated the Irish Catholics under King James II of England.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #153 on: June 25, 2016, 06:55:45 PM »
Those polls you were so quick to quote earlier were the ones that were stating it was a vote of the working classes against the elites.

For crying out loud!  All I did was post a link to the polls - I didn't offer any opinion one way or the other, and I still haven't.

Maybe it was divine intervention?  :D

Perhaps those that saw the issue as worthy were the ones that voted? 70% is a big turnout.

I don't know about your part of the world FP, but 70% turnout for a national referendum or election is low by our standards - we usually get 80-85% for national ones, although our local body elections have a much lower rate.  Again, though, it doesn't just come down to motivation - if you're physically unable to get to a polling place because of flooding, or the polling place you chose has had to be closed, it does make it rather more difficult to vote, especially when there is no on-line option.

Part of that, too, is the "village mentality" that is quite pervasive in parts of the UK - many people feel very uncomfortable if they have to travel more than a few miles away from home, so finding another polling place if their first choice was closed may not have been an option for some of those who didn't vote.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #154 on: June 25, 2016, 07:04:22 PM »
Trump is really politiczing the brexit..claiming it is all Obama's fault...

I didn't need Trump to tell me Obama is at fault for Brexit. ...Obama's policies didn't influence all who voted for Brexit  but just enough to tip the scales to make a difference.

...While in London Obama in effect threatened the UK population with punitive trade measures if they voted to leave. This created a huge backlash...

Do you all have such little faith in the intelligence of the British population to make up their own minds?  Billy, you seriously need to get over yourself.  How can you possibly make such an assertion when you haven't the slightest proof of any such influence on any individual's decision?

Online BillyB

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #155 on: June 25, 2016, 07:49:18 PM »
Billy, you seriously need to get over yourself.  How can you possibly make such an assertion when you haven't the slightest proof of any such influence on any individual's decision?


Immigration is pretty much in most articles about one of the major concerns of citizens in the UK. What have you been reading?
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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #156 on: June 25, 2016, 08:10:23 PM »
Immigration is pretty much in most articles about one of the major concerns of citizens in the UK. What have you been reading?

What has that got to do with what you wrote?

I didn't need Trump to tell me Obama is at fault for Brexit...Obama's policies didn't influence all who voted for Brexit  but just enough to tip the scales to make a difference.

Scaremongering about immigration has been a staple of the British tabloids for years.  You're deluding yourself if you think that a politician from another country had the slightest influence over how people chose to vote.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #157 on: June 25, 2016, 08:19:24 PM »
Scaremongering about immigration has been a staple of the British tabloids for years.  You're deluding yourself if you think that a politician from another country had the slightest influence over how people chose to vote.

There wouldn't be any scaremongering about immigration if scary immigration didn't exist. Whether or not you think a million Syrians coming to Europe is harmless, there are many people with real fears allowing them in is the wrong move for Europe to make. I've watched European news, not tabloids, for 3 straight weeks a few months ago when I was in Ukraine. Syrian immigrants coming over without background checks and the latest wave of terrorist acts will influence many more Europeans to vote to leave the EU not to mention many believe Syrians won't help the economy in the near or distant future. If you like the Syrians so much, petition your government to take them all in.
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Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #158 on: June 25, 2016, 08:25:42 PM »
Do you all have such little faith in the intelligence of the British population to make up their own minds?  Billy, you seriously need to get over yourself.  How can you possibly make such an assertion when you haven't the slightest proof of any such influence on any individual's decision?

The premise of your question is incorrect.

It's got nothing to do with questioning the intelligence of the British population and everything to do with a foreign head of state making inappropriate comments in support of his own flawed foreign policy agenda trying to influence a vote that should be solely decided by the citizens of an allied sovereign nation.

It's fear mongering at best. At worst it's a threat of punitive trade measures which borders on unilateral trade sanction...

 “They are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.

“And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done”.

He added: “The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.”

Indeed? So I guess the UK, which is touted as the US closest and most powerful ally, gets the bum's rush if they don't cow tow to Obama's, who incidentally won't even be around to make that kind of policy decision in 7 months, wishes?

Good to know where you stand with your partner nations though, I suppose...
Jeez, I hope Canada doesn't make any sovereign decisions that piss this guy off over the next 7 months or maybe he'll be making speeches about shunting us off to the back of the line as well.  :rolleyes:

Brass


« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 08:36:48 PM by Brasscasing »
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #159 on: June 25, 2016, 08:44:34 PM »
There wouldn't be any scaremongering about immigration if scary immigration didn't exist. Whether or not you think a million Syrians coming to Europe is harmless, there are many people with real fears allowing them in is the wrong move for Europe to make. I've watched European news, not tabloids, for 3 straight weeks a few months ago when I was in Ukraine. Syrian immigrants coming over without background checks and the latest wave of terrorist acts will influence many more Europeans to vote to leave the EU not to mention many believe Syrians won't help the economy in the near or distant future. If you like the Syrians so much, petition your government to take them all in.

Billy, you STILL haven't responded to my question.  How do you come to the conclusion that Obama influenced the vote one way or the other?  Syrians coming to Europe, and you watching European news, has absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote!  :cluebat:

As for New Zealand taking in all the Syrian refugees, don't be so bloody ridiculous.  Where would we put them all?  Unlike you, we don't have hundreds of thousands of square kilometres spare to build umpteen refugee camps, let alone new cities.  Instantly boosting our population by over 20% would cause immense infrastructural problems.  I DO believe that we should take more than we do, but that's a side issue.

You might just as well send them all to Chicago, and see if that city could cope with that much of an influx.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #160 on: June 25, 2016, 08:51:47 PM »
The premise of your question is incorrect.

It's got nothing to do with questioning the intelligence of the British population and everything to do with a foreign head of state making inappropriate comments in support of his own flawed foreign policy agenda trying to influence a vote that should be solely decided by the citizens of an allied sovereign nation.

It's fear mongering at best. At worst it's a threat of punitive trade measures which borders on unilateral trade sanction...

No, Brass, what I posted is NOT incorrect.  I totally agree with what you wrote about the inappropriateness of President Obama's comments.  However, that is not what Billy wrote.  His totally unfounded assertion was that those comments influenced the way that people voted in the referendum.  You cannot possibly make any such claim unless you ask every single person why they voted the way they did - and that will obviously never happen.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #161 on: June 25, 2016, 09:05:14 PM »
The premise of your question is incorrect.

It's got nothing to do with questioning the intelligence of the British population and everything to do with a foreign head of state making inappropriate comments in support of his own flawed foreign policy agenda trying to influence a vote that should be solely decided by the citizens of an allied sovereign nation.

It's fear mongering at best. At worst it's a threat of punitive trade measures which borders on unilateral trade sanction...

 “


I'd have to read the entire set of comments by Obama, but really he shouldn't have tried to wield his influence...like that...I can see why his comments would piss off a citizen of the UK.  Nobody wants a foreign leader telling the citizenry what to do, especially if they don't feel it is in their own best interests...I could see some votes being swayed for that reason alone. 



Well at least we didn't start threatening to bomb the UK....we don't give other nations that same break though! 


Fathertime!



I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #162 on: June 25, 2016, 09:37:09 PM »
No, Brass, what I posted is NOT incorrect. I totally agree with what you wrote about the inappropriateness of President Obama's comments.  However, that is not what Billy wrote.  His totally unfounded assertion was that those comments influenced the way that people voted in the referendum.  You cannot possibly make any such claim unless you ask every single person why they voted the way they did - and that will obviously never happen.

Oh, OK. You just quoted my comment to your post before asking your questions for ambience then. I get it... ;D

And yes Billy's assertion is founded. It is a fact that after Obama made his speech/visit in Apr the polls showed a marked jump in favor of Brexit.

This little gem has been totally ignored by the North American media and I gather the NZ media but the UK media did report on it...

What Obama effect? Polls find British voters are REJECTING the US President's plea to stay in the EU as the Brexit camp moves into the lead in major blow for Cameron

..."Barack Obama failed to persuade British voters to stay in the EU with his controversial intervention last week, a poll revealed today.

The US President flew into the UK for a four-day visit last week and warned that Britain would be at the 'back of the queue' in any trade deal with the US after a Brexit vote.

David Cameron hoped the intervention would be decisive in the EU debate but a YouGov poll conducted on Monday and Tuesday found that the Brexit campaign has jumped three points since the last poll two weeks ago.

It backs up other polls that suggested voters are rejecting Mr Obama's strongly-worded warning of the consequences of Brexit."...


Read more:www.dailymail.co.uk

So yeah Obama's 'warnings' did have an effect.

My guess is in the coming weeks and months we're going to hear a lot more about this "intervention" as more info becomes available and correlated as to what influenced the vote.

Brass
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

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Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #163 on: June 25, 2016, 09:49:45 PM »

I'd have to read the entire set of comments by Obama, but really he shouldn't have tried to wield his influence...like that...I can see why his comments would piss off a citizen of the UK.  Nobody wants a foreign leader telling the citizenry what to do, especially if they don't feel it is in their own best interests...I could see some votes being swayed for that reason alone. 



Well at least we didn't start threatening to bomb the UK....we don't give other nations that same break though!

Just had to sneak a quick snapper in there when you thought no one was looking, didn't you. >:( ;D

Brass
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #164 on: June 25, 2016, 10:00:00 PM »
Billy, you STILL haven't responded to my question.  How do you come to the conclusion that Obama influenced the vote one way or the other?  Syrians coming to Europe, and you watching European news, has absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote!  :cluebat:


I answered your question before you even asked it. Read my prior posts. The EU requires UK to have open borders between member states. It doesn't matter if UK is taking few Syrian refugees now. When those refugees become legal to live in the EU, they will be coming. A lot of people who voted for Brexit wants the UK to have control over their own borders. Obama's policies in Syria dragged the war on since he didn't stay out of it and isn't committed to winning so that resulted in a war that has no ending in sight and 12 million people fleeing the country.

Where would we put them all?

 

In the past you said those refugees will be productive and help the EU's economy. If you really believe that fantasy, you should take them all. Build them houses and they'll build NZ into an economic powerhouse.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #165 on: June 25, 2016, 10:16:27 PM »

I'd have to read the entire set of comments by Obama, but really he shouldn't have tried to wield his influence...like that...I can see why his comments would piss off a citizen of the UK.  Nobody wants a foreign leader telling the citizenry what to do, especially if they don't feel it is in their own best interests...I could see some votes being swayed for that reason alone. 



Well at least we didn't start threatening to bomb the UK....we don't give other nations that same break though! 


Fathertime!


Here are his comments, starting at about 13:30 -




And here is an op-ed piece Obama penned -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/as-your-friend-let-me-tell-you-that-the-eu-makes-britain-even-gr/




Personally, I don't find either sticking his nose in the election, nor out of line. 





To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #166 on: June 25, 2016, 10:48:34 PM »
Just had to sneak a quick snapper in there when you thought no one was looking, didn't you. >:( ;D

Brass




hehe, I knew the comment wouldn't slip past you.   ;D


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline msmobyone

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #167 on: June 25, 2016, 11:45:32 PM »

I occasionally browse RT myself, like any source it has to be looked at with suspicion, but it is interesting .



Mr Dear FT, are you suggesting the site ...http://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 is 'suspicious'  ?  :D

The BBC have covered the story and it appears the petition was started on 24 May and had only 22 votes until the suicidal vote result

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324



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Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #168 on: June 26, 2016, 02:02:57 AM »
Mr Dear FT, are you suggesting the site ...http://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 is 'suspicious'  ?  :D

The BBC have covered the story and it appears the petition was started on 24 May and had only 22 votes until the suicidal vote result

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324
1. Thanks for addressing me so politely.   :)
2.  No the petition isn't suspicious. 
3.  How do you think action on the petition will be justified now that the vote is done? 


Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline msmobyone

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #169 on: June 26, 2016, 02:29:17 AM »
How do you think action on the petition will be justified now that the vote is done? 




It has to be debated...  let's see
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Online Gator

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #170 on: June 26, 2016, 10:10:04 AM »
Gator,

from another ignorant Yank  :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union

best I could find.

Cheers!

Thanks.  Good information.  It shows UK has more opt outs than any other EU member. 

Based on the need for negotiation between UK and EU,  the EU membership agreement does not contain a secession clause, at least one that specifies conditions and penalties for secession. 

As we know in the US when some of the member states seceded we experienced a bloody civil war with blockades, etc.   While armed conflict is preposterous,  financial bloodshed is possible.  Nevertheless, it behooves everyone to work together. 

Is it possible that the EU will eventually be reduced to an economic arrangement, i. e. the original Common Market, with fewer centralized governance functions?  In that case, the UK may decide to remain.   

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #171 on: June 26, 2016, 10:24:38 AM »
Breaking news:

1. A petition for a new Brexit referendum already signed by 3 million Brits.
2. PM Sturgeon states that Scotland may veto Brexit.
Milan's "Duomo"

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #172 on: June 26, 2016, 10:54:29 AM »

The Brexit vote came about because the Tory party has always been rather ambivalent about the EU, and Tory MP's demanded it....
David Cameron is the third Tory PM to have lost power because of the EU issue.


Given this, I wonder why Cameron did not first try to negotiate something with the EU, something that would have appeased the masses of voters demanding change. 

There are always people who feel disenfranchised by the establishment.  If the number of such people remains small, the status quo continues.  When the number becomes large, some change occurs.  And if no changes are made, blowhards and rascals such as Trump gain support. 

BTW, is the term Tory considered polite in the UK?  The term Tory had a different meaning in the US and was a point of hostility. 


Quote
For a different POV ....and the aftermath....


Thanks.  Good reads.  Very complicated.  Much to be worked out.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #173 on: June 26, 2016, 11:01:14 AM »
Breaking news:

1. A petition for a new Brexit referendum already signed by 3 million Brits.
2. PM Sturgeon states that Scotland may veto Brexit.

I suspect that petition for a new Brexit referendum will top out at around 16,141,241 signatures. ;D

Brass
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #174 on: June 26, 2016, 11:04:04 AM »

Personally, I don't find either sticking his nose in the election, nor out of line.

Cameron probably asked Obama to say something during his visit.  Nevertheless, his "back of the queue"comment was disingenuous.   

 

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