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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 94244 times)

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Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #250 on: June 27, 2016, 09:41:31 PM »

2. Veiled, coercive, overt, covert, solicited or unsolicited; it doesn't matter. It was a threat of 'bad things can happen if you don't stay in the gang' and completely inappropriate.

No foreign head of state should be making speeches in another sovereign nation trying to swing the vote one way or the other during an election or referendum campaign *period*

Brass



I tend to agree with your final point, although not entirely.  I think it is ok to make some reasonable points as Obama did.  He made it clear that he would prefer there was no Brexit, and with that information the UK voters were able to factor that into their decision...in this case more people didn't care and decided to leave anyway....good for them I guess.   Had Obama made any real threats as it was characterized earlier in this thread, I would have stood against what Obama did, but listening to his comments he was very delicate in how he spoke...even with that some people ran and took his comments to a place he didn't actually go!


It is done now, it really doesn't have to do with Obama, so it is odd that some people put this on his 'list of failures'...and if it is a 'failure' Why would those same people vote for Trump?  Trump says he thinks it is great, even if it is harmful to the US. Heck, the "Remain" people should have asked Trump to support the "Exit" vote, and it probably would have lost!


Fathertime!

I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #251 on: June 27, 2016, 09:44:55 PM »

Right, I don't see the US treating the UK any different.  If there is enough incentive, any treaties will become a bigger priority.


Peter Schiff had an interesting take on the fallout.  He thought it was more of a self-fulfilling prophecy happening.  All the gloom and doom to get people to vote to stay ended up making it happen when the vote came out to leave.



I think Schiff is exactly right. The Swiss are a prime example. The most prosperous country in Europe isn't in the EU. I see the EU as a failed experiment that wasn't an experiment. The globalist looked to it as an example. The example is Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain in selling your children's soul for your debts today rather than paying the piper. Germany and France with some insane idea that their birth rate is too low and thus must import Muslims and trade off your culture and history? Really? Is it any wonder the Brits woke up and just say "Fvck no?"

Offline msmobyone

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #252 on: June 28, 2016, 12:19:06 AM »
I think Schiff is exactly right. The Swiss are a prime example. The most prosperous country in Europe isn't in the EU.

Live from Ukraine and FP


You DO know that Switzerland - like Norway and Lichtenstein  - are members of the EEA - which means they pay to be part of the EU club - must obey it's rules- but cannot vote to control /influence....


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Offline msmobyone

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #253 on: June 28, 2016, 12:26:22 AM »
UK will need 2 years to divorce the EU. Obama probably has people working on a trade agreement right now. UK won't be at the back of the line as Obama falsely warned to sway voters. Two years from now America and the UK will be trading without missing a beat.

1/The US isn't  the UK's largest trading partner..that's the EU

2/ Trade agreements usually take up to 10 years to agree - as does JOINING the EU..so why do you think the UK will be a 'special case' ?
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #254 on: June 28, 2016, 04:29:55 AM »
1/The US isn't  the UK's largest trading partner..that's the EU

2/ Trade agreements usually take up to 10 years to agree - as does JOINING the EU..so why do you think the UK will be a 'special case' ?

The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world.  Plus, the major financial services hub of the hidden govt. That's why it's a special case. When has The City not gotten what it wants, on any matter it cares about?
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Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #255 on: June 28, 2016, 05:45:13 AM »
Live from Ukraine and FP


You DO know that Switzerland - like Norway and Lichtenstein  - are members of the EEA - which means they pay to be part of the EU club - must obey it's rules- but cannot vote to control /influence....


Thanks Moby, I am learning this as I go so please bare with me.  I knew there was a connection but wasn't aware of what that connection was.


I did some quick searches once you said EEA and came up with this.

Quote
The EEA goes beyond traditional free trade agreements (FTAs) by extending the full rights and obligations of the EU’s internal market to the EFTA countries (with the exception of Switzerland). The EEA incorporates the four freedoms of the internal market (free movement of goods, people, services and capital) and related policies (competition, transport, energy and economic and monetary cooperation). The agreement includes horizontal policies strictly related to the four freedoms: social policies (including health and safety at work, labour law and the equal treatment of men and women); policies on consumer protection, the environment, statistics and company law; and a number of flanking policies, such as those relating to research and technological development, which are not based on the EU acquis or legally binding acts, but are implemented through cooperation activities.

The limitations...

Quote
The limits of the EEAThe EEA Agreement does not establish binding provisions in all sectors of the internal market or in other policies under the EU Treaties. In particular, its binding provisions do not concern:the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy (although the agreement contains provisions on trade in agricultural and fishery products);the customs union;the common trade policy;the common foreign and security policy;the field of justice and home affairs (although all the EFTA countries are part of the Schengen area); orthe economic and monetary union (EMU).




I bolded what I thought was important.  Please correct me if I am wrong.   Not being a part of the EMU allows those countries to dictate their own economic policy. 


While the EU economic policy is dictated by the European Council. 

Correct? 

If so, I can see why some countries went with the EEA instead of becoming a EU member.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:47:01 AM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #256 on: June 28, 2016, 05:49:31 AM »
The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world.  Plus, the major financial services hub of the hidden govt. That's why it's a special case. When has The City not gotten what it wants, on any matter it cares about?


There is talks about a lot of jobs moving out of UK into neighboring EU countries to better serve the EU market.  A lot of jobs, supposedly, will be financial jobs.  I'm even seeing articles about a possible IT shortage. 


I still think it's too early to know exactly what will happen.  Emotions are at a all time high and I do believe things will slow down.  Possibly even get back to what would be considered normal.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:51:18 AM by LiveFromUkraine »

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #257 on: June 28, 2016, 05:49:43 AM »
Live from Ukraine and FP


You DO know that Switzerland - like Norway and Lichtenstein  - are members of the EEA - which means they pay to be part of the EU club - must obey it's rules- but cannot vote to control /influence....

Ah no. Switzerland did not join the EEA and yet has numerous trade agreements with the EU. More hyperbole. The Swiss opted out of both the EU and the EEA yet has more than enough trade partners in Europe and the world

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #258 on: June 28, 2016, 05:52:36 AM »
Ah no. Switzerland did not join the EEA and yet has numerous trade agreements with the EU. More hyperbole. The Swiss opted out of both the EU and the EEA yet has more than enough trade partners in Europe and the world


You're right! 

http://www.gov.uk/eu-eea


I even missed it on the site I was looking at previously.  :-\


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_6.5.3.html

Quote
While Switzerland is not part of the EEA, it remains a member of EFTA. More than 120 sectoral bilateral treaties linking the country with the EU incorporate largely the same provisions as those adopted by the other EEA countries in the fields of the free movement of people, goods, services and capital. However, bilateral relations have been severely strained since the February 2014 anti-immigration initiative, the outcome of which called into question the principles of free movement and the single market that underpin those relations



« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 06:01:47 AM by LiveFromUkraine »

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #259 on: June 28, 2016, 08:36:34 AM »
1/The US isn't  the UK's largest trading partner..that's the EU

2/ Trade agreements usually take up to 10 years to agree - as does JOINING the EU..so why do you think the UK will be a 'special case' ?

You've done business before, right? You wouldn't let a million dollar contract slip through your hands because you can't get hash over the details and get the paperwork signed in time. America isn't going to let trillions of dollars of trade slip through our hands. UK isn't going to be without trading partners for 8 years after leaving the EU. Give Brexit a chance. If the EU is still around, they'll take you back. They want UK more than UK wants them.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #260 on: June 28, 2016, 01:03:42 PM »
Switzerland is a signatory to the European Free Trade Association, which requires the free movement of people.  The Swiss voted to restrict that free movement two years ago, so the deal may be revoked.


Switzerland's banking and service sectors are not part of the trade association.  That accounts for 80% of the UK's economy, so their model won't work for the UK.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #261 on: June 28, 2016, 02:09:57 PM »
In 6-12 months,  UK will know the negotiated terms for secession from the EU.  Meanwhile, maybe the UK and the EU can negotiate the terms for the UK remaining in the EU.   I say this with the understanding that when Boris Johnson first raised the issue of UK's membership, he did not say the UK needs to exit the EU, he said the UK needs a better deal.


Also, in 6-12 months the UK will  know more about related areas such as whether Scotland will elect to become independent.
 

With this new knowledge,  the UK should have a second referendum in 12-15 months.

Okay Europeans, how likely is this scenario?

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #262 on: June 28, 2016, 02:42:00 PM »
In 6-12 months,  UK will know the negotiated terms for secession from the EU.  Meanwhile, maybe the UK and the EU can negotiate the terms for the UK remaining in the EU.   I say this with the understanding that when Boris Johnson first raised the issue of UK's membership, he did not say the UK needs to exit the EU, he said the UK needs a better deal.


Also, in 6-12 months the UK will  know more about related areas such as whether Scotland will elect to become independent.
 

With this new knowledge,  the UK should have a second referendum in 12-15 months.

Okay Europeans, how likely is this scenario?

I think you're being optimistic, Gator. Even just in the last four days with the EU preparing to punitively dig it's heels in, the unnecessary assassination of the UK citizenry by the world media and over all chicken little antics going on in the world markets I'd bet a second referendum would produce an even more pronounced decision in favor of Brexit.

These are a proud people and as a society stubborn as hell...They kicked the Romans out. They kept the continental Kings and Emperors off the British Isles for 13 centuries and held on for years against an overwhelming German military force some might argue twice through two world wars in the 20th century. Oh, and while all this was going on they even managed to be the planet's only super power for a couple hundred years to boot.

I'd say the EU has pretty well burned it's bridges with the UK. I'd even go as far as to say the "special relationship" with the US has been damaged short term as well.

Brass
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 02:43:35 PM by Brasscasing »
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

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Offline ML

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #263 on: June 28, 2016, 03:15:52 PM »
They kept the continental Kings and Emperors off the British Isles for 13 centuries . . .

Oh . . . I thought something happened in 1066 AD.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #264 on: June 28, 2016, 03:52:17 PM »
Oh . . . I thought something happened in 1066 AD.

Quite right. I forgot about that (had to look it up just now). Knock 200 years or so off my 13 centuries for the Norman Dynasty.  ;D

Brass
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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #265 on: June 28, 2016, 05:34:48 PM »
...They kicked the Romans out.
They did not, Roman legions were withdrawn gradually from Britannia starting in the IV century because of more pressing problems elsewhere.

Knock 200 years or so off my 13 centuries for the Norman Dynasty.  ;D
Keep knocking off a few additional centuries ;D:

- House of Orange-Nassau (1689-1714)
- House of Hanover (1714–1901)
- House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1901–1917)

Although, technically, not continental Kings & Emperors :-\.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:56:13 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #266 on: June 28, 2016, 07:06:28 PM »
They did not, Roman legions were withdrawn gradually from Britannia starting in the IV century because of more pressing problems elsewhere.
Keep knocking off a few additional centuries ;D:

- House of Orange-Nassau (1689-1714)
- House of Hanover (1714–1901)
- House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1901–1917)

Although, technically, not continental Kings & Emperors :-\.

..."Regarding the events of 409 and 410 when the Romano-Britons expelled Roman officials and sent a request for aid to Honorius, Michael Jones (The End of Roman Britain, 1998) offered a different chronology to the same end result: he suggested that the Britons first appealed to Rome and when no help was forthcoming, they expelled the Roman officials and took charge of their own affairs.[39]"...

..."E. A. Thompson ("Britain, A.D. 406–410", in Britannia, 8 (1977), pp. 303–318) offered a more provocative theory to explain the expulsion of officials and appeal for Roman aid. He suggested that a revolt consisting of dissident peasants, not unlike the Bagaudae of Gaul, also existing in Britain, and when they revolted and expelled the Roman officials, the landowning class then made an appeal for Roman aid."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain

I disagree my friend. I'm with you that the Roman Empire was on the wane at this time and were withdrawing all over the empire but the Romans still had garrison units and representatives of Rome in 'Britannia'.

It was those garrisons that were eventually overpowered and ousted along with the remaining Roman government. Although by that time it's debatable whether there would have been any actual ethnic Romans among them.

- House of Orange-Nassau (1689-1714) William III King of Scotland, England, Ireland and Sovereign Prince of Orange from birth. He inherited the Island Kingdoms through marriage and family. Heredity is not the same as conquering. ;)

- House of Hanover (1714–1901) Again heredity. George I inherited his mother's claim to the throne of England when she died. Normal succession no usurping.

- House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1901–1917)Edward VII (Albert Edward; 9 November 1841 – 6 May 1910) ..."Edward VII was King of the United Kingdom and the British Dominions and Emperor of India from 22 January 1901 until his death in 1910.

The eldest son of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Edward was related to royalty throughout Europe. Before his accession to the throne, he served as heir apparent and held the title of Prince of Wales for longer than any of his predecessors."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VII

Also heredity.

There's no accounting for family, Sandro. The monarchies of Europe may have all been in bred but they weren't charging onto the Island sword in hand.  :D

Brass
 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 07:10:47 PM by Brasscasing »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #267 on: June 28, 2016, 07:09:43 PM »

I'd say the EU has pretty well burned it's bridges with the UK.


UK and Continental Europe have enjoyed peace and prosperity ever since 1945.  A key reason:  interconnected economies created by trade among each other.  Why kill this Golden Goose!

Emotion runs freely now, and unchecked speculation abounds.  As calm and reason are restored, I feel some statesmen will start communicating and can seek a win-win hybrid other than "IN" or "OUT."

Regarding UK, if they do exit completely, is there a reason why the US and UK could not continue to trade under the prior arrangements.   

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #268 on: June 28, 2016, 07:16:33 PM »

UK and Continental Europe have enjoyed peace and prosperity ever since 1945.  A key reason:  interconnected economies created by trade among each other.  Why kill this Golden Goose!

Emotion runs freely now, and unchecked speculation abounds.  As calm and reason are restored, I feel some statesmen will start communicating and can seek a win-win hybrid other than "IN" or "OUT."

Regarding UK, if they do exit completely, is there a reason why the US and UK could not continue to trade under the prior arrangements.

I'll get back to you on this. Sandro has me questioning my history lessons again. :D

Brass
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 07:18:59 PM by Brasscasing »
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #269 on: June 28, 2016, 07:39:14 PM »
I'll get back to you on this. Sandro has me questioning my history lessons again. :D


That's okay. 

Regarding Sandro, do not forget to mention Sir Francis Drake vs. the Spanish Armada.  That was a long time ago, so long that the Europeans were barely starting to colonize North America. 

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #270 on: June 28, 2016, 08:04:52 PM »
Here you go.....





Quote
Britain’s largest Islamic charity says it wants to “break down barriers” and portray Islam positively by launching a new advertising campaign which will slap the phrase “glory to Allah” on the side of London buses.The new campaign by Islamic Relief is, ostensibly, targeted at raising donations for their Ramadan aid to Syria, but is attracting attention for the “hundreds” of buses which will be decorated with the phrase “Subhan’Allah”, or ‘Glory to Allah’.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/08/london-buses-declare-glory-allah/

Sharia law is coming to Londonstan

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #271 on: June 29, 2016, 03:12:30 AM »

Sharia law is coming to Londonstan

You should stay away - keep your Mr Trump away, too ...

Seriously, ANYONE thinking Sharia 'law' is legal in the UK is likely to be the type that would have voted Brexit ....

Clueless, uninformed and YES xenophobic ...
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #272 on: June 29, 2016, 04:06:13 AM »
You should stay away - keep your Mr Trump away, too ...

Seriously, ANYONE thinking Sharia 'law' is legal in the UK is likely to be the type that would have voted Brexit ....

Clueless, uninformed and YES xenophobic ...

Is this article wholly inaccurate,  then?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3234/muslim-polygamists-welfare-benefits

Polygamous Muslim marriage is part of sharia  IMHO.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #273 on: June 29, 2016, 04:11:24 AM »
You should stay away - keep your Mr Trump away, too ...

Seriously, ANYONE thinking Sharia 'law' is legal in the UK is likely to be the type that would have voted Brexit ....

Clueless, uninformed and YES xenophobic ...

You are losing it brother. In one breath you state "stay away and keep Trump away" and the next breath you accuse him of xenophobia. You do know what xenophobic means don't you? More voted Brexit than didn't. There is nothing wrong with not embracing globalism or being governed by a body you are not or at best sparsely represented by. Nothing whatsoever wrong with that. You are chanting the worldwide liberal mantra. "If you don't believe like we do you are a racist bastard", that's bullshit Moby

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