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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 128254 times)

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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #375 on: July 02, 2016, 08:42:33 PM »
but the Romans still had garrison units and representatives of Rome in 'Britannia'. It was those garrisons that were eventually overpowered and ousted along with the remaining Roman government.
Your source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain)   appears to imply that those garrisons, if any, were very few and far between at the time that Roman magistrates - i.e. civilians - were "kicked out" ;).

Anyway, the Britons proved far less successful not long later against the Angli, Saxons et al., and were pushed into the least desirable pieces of Britannia's real estate - Cornwall and Wales. Some even crossed the Channel and fled to Brittany, as the toponym suggests.

The Anglo-Saxons, too, had considerable difficulties subsequently with the Danes on several occasions, ultimately:
Quote
In the 11th century, there were three conquests and some Anglo-Saxon people would live through it: one in the aftermath of the conquest of Cnut in 1016; the second after the unsuccessful attempt of battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066; the third after that of William of Normandy in 1066.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons

After the Normal-English kings finally ceased to be obsessed with conquests/re-conquests in France - 100 years of Plantagenet wars against the French Valois kings, 1337 to 1453  - the major threat of Spanish invasion in 1588 was repulsed by the RN (and foul weather ;D). Although...
Quote
The strategic aim was to overthrow Queen Elizabeth I of England and the Tudor establishment of Protestantism in England, with the expectation that this would put a stop to English interference in the Spanish Netherlands and to the harm caused to Spanish interests by English and Dutch privateering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada

rather than a conquest of the island.

After that, IINM no other attempts for 200+ years until Napoleon's - thwarted by the RN - and Hitler's some 150 years later - thwarted by the RAF.

Thus, your assertion of Briton/English/British century-long stout opposition to invasion by foreigners has a few holes in it :D.
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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #376 on: July 03, 2016, 05:20:02 AM »
...Also I pointed out Greenland leaving EU in the 80's and they haven't come pounding on EU's door to get back in. Whether UK does better alone than answer to masters in Brussels depends on the UK. If UK wants to be lazy like Greece, it's best they stay in the EU so that others can pull it's weight.

Billy, you're being deliberately obscure with the facts here.  Greenland is not a sovereign country - it is a self-governing territory of Denmark, rather like Puerto Rico and Guam are still part of the USA.  Greenland left the EU in a dispute over fishing rights - one single issue which concerned their only real source of income.  It had never wanted to be part of the EU in the first place, but had no choice when Denmark voted to join the EU in 1973.  You cannot possibly equate their decision with Brexit.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #377 on: July 03, 2016, 08:29:29 AM »
Your source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain)   appears to imply that those garrisons, if any, were very few and far between at the time that Roman magistrates - i.e. civilians - were "kicked out" ;).

I'm not sure what you're point is, Sandro.

This is what I posted...

Quote
These are a proud people and as a society stubborn as hell...They kicked the Romans out. ...

Pretty well every historical record/timeline confirms that statement...

Timeline of Roman Britain

AD 407 - The remaining Roman garrisons in Britain proclaim one of their generals, Constantine III, Emperor of the Western Roman Empire. Constantine quickly pulls together a force and crosses the English Channel to invade Gaul, leaving Britain with only a skeleton force to defend itself.

AD 409 - After throwing off their allegiance to Constantine III in 408, the local British populace expel the final remnants of Roman authority in 409.

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Timeline-of-Roman-Britain/

  Timeline of Roman Britain - Britannia.com

..."409 - Prosper, in his chronicle, says, "in the fifteenth year of Honorius and Arcadius (409), on account of the languishing state of the Romans, the strength of the Britons was brought to a desperate pass." Under enormous pressure, Britons take matters into their own hands, expelling weak Roman officials and fighting for themselves."...

http://www.britannia.com/history/romantime.html

Anyway, the Britons proved far less successful not long later against the Angli, Saxons et al., and were pushed into the least desirable pieces of Britannia's real estate - Cornwall and Wales. Some even crossed the Channel and fled to Brittany, as the toponym suggests.

The Anglo-Saxons, too, had considerable difficulties subsequently with the Danes on several occasions, ultimately:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons

After the Normal-English kings finally ceased to be obsessed with conquests/re-conquests in France - 100 years of Plantagenet wars against the French Valois kings, 1337 to 1453  - the major threat of Spanish invasion in 1588 was repulsed by the RN (and foul weather ;D). Although...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada

rather than a conquest of the island.

After that, IINM no other attempts for 200+ years until Napoleon's - thwarted by the RN - and Hitler's some 150 years later - thwarted by the RAF.

Thus, your assertion of Briton/English/British century-long stout opposition to invasion by foreigners has a few holes in it :D.

You and I don't  seem to have the same interpretation of what I originally posted. Here it is again...

Quote
They kept the continental Kings and Emperors off the British Isles for 13 centuries and held on for years against an overwhelming German military force some might argue twice through two world wars in the 20th century

I'm a little perplexed by your final paragraph (my bolded) in that - other than  my obvious oversight in forgetting the Norman Dynasty pointed out by ML - the points you bring forth, although no doubt interesting as discussion within themselves, don't actually contradict what I've posted. 

Maybe you could elaborate?  :)

Brass



« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 08:40:08 AM by Brasscasing »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #378 on: July 03, 2016, 08:49:36 AM »
If they hired Bulgarian wrapper artist Christo Vladimirov Javacheff to do across the Channel what he did on our Lake Iseo a couple of weeks ago, it would just be a walk-over ;D.


Christo's floating piers (3.5 Km long)

I watched a PBS program about Christo's floating bridges.  Fascinating, both in the art expression and the engineering.   The glorious backdrop of green mountains, picturesque villages, and glacier carved lakes is somehow enhanced  by yellow, linear bridges.


Christo is a very energetic 80+ yo artist.  He explained how important it was in an artistic sense to obtain regulatory safety approval for eliminating bannisters. 

What was the public opinion?  Critical opinion? Did you go for a walk on the water, Sandro?  Not far  from Milan; however, the masterpiece will be dismantled after only 16 days. 


Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #379 on: July 03, 2016, 09:21:22 AM »






Not a bad week for a post Brexit apocalyptic world, eh? :P

Sterling finished the week down by 0.57% (less than 1%). That's not bad.

The rally continues. ;)

Brass 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 09:30:52 AM by Brasscasing »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #380 on: July 03, 2016, 01:34:25 PM »
Billy, you're being deliberately obscure with the facts here.  Greenland is not a sovereign country - it is a self-governing territory of Denmark, rather like Puerto Rico and Guam are still part of the USA.  Greenland left the EU in a dispute over fishing rights - one single issue which concerned their only real source of income.  It had never wanted to be part of the EU in the first place, but had no choice when Denmark voted to join the EU in 1973.  You cannot possibly equate their decision with Brexit.

Greenland left the EU and doesn't feel the need to come pounding on the door to get back in. EU was bitter about their decision and is now having to pay cash to Greenland for those fishing rights, rights they would otherwise have if Greenland stayed in the EU.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #381 on: July 03, 2016, 01:38:17 PM »
You've heard it here first, the Queen of UK (and various other places) agrees with 2tallbill.

The Queen urges Britain to calm down and tells MSPs they should feel 'hope and optimism'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/the-queen-urges-britain-to-calm-down-and-allow-time-for-quiet-th/

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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #382 on: July 03, 2016, 04:42:59 PM »
Did you go for a walk on the water, Sandro?
I often walk on water but only when nobody's around, I don't want to suffer a retinue of followers expecting free bread and fish ;D.

Seriously, Christo's work has attracted 1.3 million visitors in 2 weeks :o and created some serious  logistic problems: trains/buses to the locažtion filled to capacity and, IINM, one has to queue for long hours before being admitted to the floating piers.

Not my cup of tea, and I've been to Iseo before, in quieter times when it's more enjoyable ;).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 05:24:04 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #383 on: July 03, 2016, 06:00:11 PM »
I often walk on water but only when nobody's around, I don't want to suffer a retinue of followers expecting free bread and fish ;D.


Never mind the wine  :D

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #384 on: July 03, 2016, 06:13:13 PM »
Looks like Obama was just joking about back of the queue for the UK.   :P


As I said before, if it is in our interest, we will make deals with the UK.  Glad to see Obama agreed with me. 

Quote

So it took many by surprise when, after Britain's referendum, the White House said the U.S. might still pursue a one-off deal with Britain, but it simply might take longer given the legwork that's already been done on the broader EU deal. Secretary of State John Kerry even said that Obama planned to pursue both deals "at the same time."

http://www.yahoo.com/news/seeking-post-brexit-calm-obama-062221483.html


I also read the corporate tax rate may be cut to 15 percent from 25.  Man, I wish the US could leave the EU as well.  haha
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 06:28:40 PM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #385 on: July 03, 2016, 06:39:19 PM »
Greenland left the EU and doesn't feel the need to come pounding on the door to get back in. EU was bitter about their decision and is now having to pay cash to Greenland for those fishing rights, rights they would otherwise have if Greenland stayed in the EU.

Like I said - what's that got to do with Brexit?  Two totally different scenarios.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #386 on: July 03, 2016, 08:57:40 PM »
Like I said - what's that got to do with Brexit?


Greenland didn't like the fishing regulations and ban of using seal skins EU imposed on them. They left, they're doing fine and haven't asked to come back. Many citizens in the UK didn't like the EU having some control over their immigration.

Two totally different scenarios.

Control is the issue in both scenarios. They're in the same boat now. Independent.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #387 on: July 03, 2016, 09:04:59 PM »

Can't you see, Kiwi, that a country with a population of 56,000, almost 90% of whom are Inuit living traditional lives, is completely analagous to 64 million Brits presiding over the ninth largest economy in the world?
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #388 on: July 03, 2016, 09:22:15 PM »
Can't you see, Kiwi, that a country with a population of 56,000, almost 90% of whom are Inuit living traditional lives, is completely analagous to 64 million Brits presiding over the ninth largest economy in the world?

Give it a few more years and Kiwi will see nations of various populations, economies and interests quitting the EU and won't pound the door to get back in.
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Offline BC

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #389 on: July 04, 2016, 04:11:46 AM »
Can't you see, Kiwi, that a country with a population of 56,000, almost 90% of whom are Inuit living traditional lives, is completely analagous to 64 million Brits presiding over the ninth largest economy in the world?

It is often surprising how anomaly and tangentiality are often used around here to substantiate or establish a rule.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #390 on: July 04, 2016, 08:26:30 AM »
Can't you see, Kiwi, that a country with a population of 56,000, almost 90% of whom are Inuit living traditional lives, is completely analagous to 64 million Brits presiding over the ninth largest economy in the world?

It is often surprising how anomaly and tangentiality are often used around here to substantiate or establish a rule.

My bad!  :'(  How could I be so stupid as to not realise that everyone in the UK took such a good, long look at Greenland's situation, and then decided to say: "Oh, stuff the EU - let's follow Greenland into this brave new world of going it alone.  It's worked for them, so it MUST work for us too!  They might be a bit annoyed, though, if we try selling fish in the same markets.  But who cares?  We'll just spend the next ten years figuring out some kind of a trade deal with Greenland.  What's that?  What do you mean - they're not a country?  They're part of DENMARK????"  :devil:

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #391 on: July 04, 2016, 08:52:33 AM »
My bad!  :'(  How could I be so stupid as to not realise that everyone in the UK took such a good, long look at Greenland's situation, and then decided to say: "Oh, stuff the EU - let's follow Greenland into this brave new world of going it alone.


You're at the point in this debate of making stuff up. Nobody in this thread said UK wanted to follow Greenland. Greenland was used as an example ONLY because people on your side of the fence say EU is so wonderful and the sky will fall for the UK. Did Greenland fall? No, as a matter of fact, they continued to change their laws to get away from Demark too and are able to rule themselves.

It is often surprising how anomaly and tangentiality are often used around here to substantiate or establish a rule.

Kiwi is making a mountain out of a mole hill when it simply comes down to the increasing control EU has over its members. Control over immigration isn't the only issue UK has with EU. See those charts I supplied earlier? UK has to pay the EU 248 million pounds each week after rebates are factored in. If America were to join the EU, we'd probably have to pay billions each week for them to tell us how to handle our affairs. We're going to see more nations quit the EU unless the EU lets it members have more control over their own affairs. We now have Greenland and the UK to prove the sky won't fall leaving the EU.
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Offline BC

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #392 on: July 04, 2016, 09:36:49 AM »
http://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

But yeah.. just like any club with benefits you pay dues to belong.  What the EU receives is also spent for improvements to help standardize living quality throughout EU including poorer nations.  Like roads, community improvements, historical / cultural projects, research projects and healthcare facilities etc etc.  It also helps level the playing field for businesses.  A country with a poor transport system or roads might get more support to build up to date facilities allowing them to compete and bring their goods to market.

Here in EU the citizens don't pay taxes directly like in the US.  In the US, individual citizens pay federal taxes to the IRS.  In EU the taxes are paid by the member countries.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #393 on: July 04, 2016, 10:34:29 AM »
http://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

But yeah.. just like any club with benefits you pay dues to belong.  What the EU receives is also spent for improvements to help standardize living quality throughout EU including poorer nations.  Like roads, community improvements, historical / cultural projects, research projects and healthcare facilities etc etc.  It also helps level the playing field for businesses.  A country with a poor transport system or roads might get more support to build up to date facilities allowing them to compete and bring their goods to market.


Taking from the rich and giving to the poor was acceptable to the UK years ago when the taking and giving was within reason but according to the link, the UK was to give much more in the last few years than in previous years. People began to see what they get for what they pay isn't worth it. That and what people view as reckless immigration policies by the EU during a messy Syrian war has tipped the scales in favor of Brexit. the vote was close and didn't have to end this way but EU refused to budge on their position. In a way I don't blame them. If they give the UK what they want, other nations will try to get more too chipping away their authority. They gambled and someday they may not have any authority. The EU also has to realize they work for the people and must provide them with good value for the money they give or lose their customers.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #394 on: July 04, 2016, 10:39:26 AM »
We have had 40 years of the the union only time will tell what happens next, we have not walked this path before

nobody said it will be easy, the markets will fluctuates wait and see when when Article 50 gets implemented

but one plus that commodities are up


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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #395 on: July 04, 2016, 10:53:18 AM »
Taking from the rich and giving to the poor was acceptable to the UK years ago when the taking and giving was within reason but according to the link, the UK was to give much more in the last few years than in previous years. People began to see what they get for what they pay isn't worth it. That and what people view as reckless immigration policies by the EU during a messy Syrian war has tipped the scales in favor of Brexit. the vote was close and didn't have to end this way but EU refused to budge on their position. In a way I don't blame them. If they give the UK what they want, other nations will try to get more too chipping away their authority. They gambled and someday they may not have any authority. The EU also has to realize they work for the people and must provide them with good value for the money they give or lose their customers.

Does the USG not also tax citizens and build highways and bridges, support research, subsidize housing for the poor etc etc?

I really don't see much difference between the EU and US 'systems'...  they are both a union of states after all,.

http://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #396 on: July 04, 2016, 06:30:47 PM »
You're at the point in this debate of making stuff up. Nobody in this thread said UK wanted to follow Greenland. Greenland was used as an example ONLY because people on your side of the fence say EU is so wonderful and the sky will fall for the UK. Did Greenland fall? No, as a matter of fact, they continued to change their laws to get away from Demark too and are able to rule themselves.

What do you mean - "your side of the fence?"  You're the one making stuff up - I haven't expressed any opinion one way or the other.  As for Greenland, they don't rule themselves.  Although an autonomous country within the Danish Realm, it is still ruled by Denmark, although more and more responsibility is being devolved by the central government as Greenland becomes more self-sufficient.

Look it up.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #397 on: July 04, 2016, 09:02:13 PM »
I really don't see much difference between the EU and US 'systems'...  they are both a union of states after all,.


I see a lot of difference. According to your link in a previous post, UK paid around 1.5 billion pounds after rebates to the EU in 2001. They paid 11 billion pounds after rebates to the EU in 2013. You don't see those alarming increases for any one state in America.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #398 on: July 05, 2016, 12:26:21 AM »
I'm starting to believe it is you that is uneducated and a sore loser. Cameron asked EU for more control over UK immigration. You can believe it won't stop EU migrants all you want. For the rest of us and Cameron more control means more control to do things any way UK wants. How difficult is that to understand? If you and EU understood that and reacted appropriately you may still be in the EU. Too little too late.

 :D

BillyB

I readily admit to being a sore loser .. and you keep proving 'we' lost to folk like you who simply didn't understand what they were voting for..

I'll REALLY try and make it simple for you .... Cameron was trying to reduce the appeal to EU migrants - by doing a deal to lengthen the time before social benefits could be claimed.... the right of freedom of movement of EU citizens is enshrined in EU membership.



Umpteenth time ..
the UK has already laws restricting non EU immigration - successful applicants need to be sponsored - or be very rich

I never stated leaving wouldn't stop EU migration .... it will - but not before a HUGE rush to 'get in' - before we 'pull up the drawbridge' ... The 'leave' lot just realised that and are panicking ..

I DID say ILLEGAL immigration will go through the roof ..



Please excuse the Curmudgeon in my posts ..he will be cured by being reunited with his loved one ;)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #399 on: July 05, 2016, 12:31:42 AM »


Let's go in circles ....
Massive immigration by Muslims equaled problems for British citizens :popcorn:

We are going in circles because EU migrants - don't tend to be followers of Islam ....  :deadhorse:

You - like BillyB - simply can't absorb fact.... the UK already controlled immigration from non EU nations
Please excuse the Curmudgeon in my posts ..he will be cured by being reunited with his loved one ;)

 

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Computer Software and Intellectual Property Rights by GQBlues
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