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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 75742 times)

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Online msmob

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« Reply #500 on: October 15, 2018, 09:50:38 PM »
Mobe they are called Work Visa's & Border Force - of course we can issue these and police them just like any other country does.

Trenchcoat - allow me to prove you are simply clueless

A Russian arrives in the UK and travels via a ferry to N.Ireland - how does the UK force who if said Russian is in the UK or Ireland ?

Another Ukrainian arrives in Ireland - no need for a Visa and travels to the north - they catch a ferry to Scotland - how does the 'Borderforce' know they are in the UK ?

THAT is the current Common Travel Agreement scenario -  the DUP will NOT allow a hard border or checks between the UK and Ireland and IF we crashed out - do you think there'll be a border between N.Ireland and Eire - or checks between N.I and GB.....?   My stance hasn't changed ..I've always stated that this issue wold mean a compromise and the fall of the govt if a no deal scenario occurs - please check

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Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #501 on: October 16, 2018, 02:36:03 AM »
Matters little Mobers, without being able to prove a right to work with Employers they would likely be unable to earn any money to stay. They would also likey to struggle with accomodation. It is at any rate better than allowing them a legal right to citizenship. Also the UK Border Force/Police can and does operate spot checks on suspected illegals throughout the UK and sometimes randomly on the street. All in all it may not be 100 percent foolproof system but it is at least a start from which we can improve.  The EU system is a 'who cares' let anyone flood in system of irresponsibility. Needless to say homelessness has been riding year on year as a result of the EU acting irresponsibly.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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« Reply #502 on: October 16, 2018, 03:46:37 AM »
Matters little Mobers, without being able to prove a right to work with Employers they would likely be unable to earn any money to stay.

Surely you are being deliberately obtuse?

1/ In both scenarios - they would be in the UK illegally

2/ It would be down to the BF to find them

3/ No doubt they would work on the black or have family members

4/ No passport ?  Where to remove them TO ?

It is at any rate better than allowing them a legal right to citizenship.

Ri-ight ... So it would be 'ok' for you or Nigel Farage to 'import' German and French wives / g/friends - but discourage workers ?;)


Also the UK Border Force/Police can and does operate spot checks on suspected illegals throughout the UK and sometimes randomly on the street. All in all it may not be 100 percent foolproof system but it is at least a start from which we can improve.  The EU system is a 'who cares' let anyone flood in system of irresponsibility. Needless to say homelessness has been riding year on year as a result of the EU acting irresponsibly.

When there is a legal system - immigrants join the state system and contribute to the tax and National security schemes.

Please tell us how a BF agent is going to randomly stop a EU citizen who has crossed the seamless border ?

You need to read up:

http://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights

This is going to be a bigger headache if the UK Police / BF do not have access to EU records



Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #503 on: October 16, 2018, 04:13:02 AM »
Surely you are being deliberately obtuse?

1/ In both scenarios - they would be in the UK illegally

2/ It would be down to the BF to find them

3/ No doubt they would work on the black or have family members

4/ No passport ?  Where to remove them TO ?

Ri-ight ... So it would be 'ok' for you or Nigel Farage to 'import' German and French wives / g/friends - but discourage workers ?;)


When there is a legal system - immigrants join the state system and contribute to the tax and National security schemes.

Please tell us how a BF agent is going to randomly stop a EU citizen who has crossed the seamless border ?

You need to read up:

http://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights

This is going to be a bigger headache if the UK Police / BF do not have access to EU records

They come from somewhere, immigration would work it out. Immigrants take jobs away from locals and mess up the whole structure of society in doing so. They disrupt the natural flow of locals being employed then progresses up the up chain in their careers.

The days of the black market as it were are long gone. With stuff becoming digital and online it's harder and harder for the black market to operate. At some point any black market that remains fall foul of the system. In any rate it tends to be less people willing to chance it than limitless immigration.

Locals not displaced by immigrants pay tax & NI plus they then don't add to dole queue numbers. Look how unemployment has been dropping already since immigration numbers having fallen of since the Brexit referendum :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45875599

No doubt good news to go of for any possible General Election!

No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online msmob

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« Reply #504 on: October 16, 2018, 05:00:26 AM »
They come from somewhere, immigration would work it out.

You have clearly NEVER dealt with Visas or Border Force - they are under paid over worked and under funded

Immigrants take jobs away from locals and mess up the whole structure of society in doing so. They disrupt the natural flow of locals being employed then progresses up the up chain in their careers.

That is  proven untruth ... Does the UK have high unemployment within the EU - with EU citizens able to move freely ? NO 

The days of the black market as it were are long gone.

I beg to differ - your wish will bring those days back - look at the USA .. aren't they 'digital' enough ?

 
Locals not displaced by immigrants pay tax & NI plus they then don't add to dole queue numbers. Look how unemployment has been dropping already since immigration numbers having fallen of since the Brexit referendum :)

Unemployment is falling EU wide and they aren't leaving ...   The UK was booming before the madness of the June 2016 referendum and our economy was leading the western world out of recession

You are either deceiving yourself or just daft


Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #505 on: October 20, 2018, 06:42:03 AM »
 Well Mobers a chance for you to go out and Remoan in public with fellow Remoaners today ;D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Being so much into the Remain camp I expect you'll already be there!

For some reason they don't seem to have noticed that there already was a people's vote and they lost  :D

Well not long to go now, I think Theresa will have to decide in December if she is going to call it out in her party with a Leadership Election, John Major style or they might call her out. If a decent deal is not forthcoming that is and that is now looking increasingly unlikely. Either that or she will have to move firmly into the no deal camp and call a General Election.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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« Reply #506 on: October 21, 2018, 01:06:14 AM »
Well Mobers a chance for you to go out and Remoan in public with fellow Remoaners today ;D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Being so much into the Remain camp I expect you'll already be there!

Sadly not ..   I admire their spirit - but think the best way to get a vote on what the govt presents as a 'deal ' or 'no deal' is a referendum on the govt ,,,! 


Well not long to go now, I think Theresa will have to decide in December if she is going to call it out in her party with a Leadership Election, John Major style or they might call her out. If a decent deal is not forthcoming that is and that is now looking increasingly unlikely. Either that or she will have to move firmly into the no deal camp and call a General Election.

Interesting that you mention John Major  -  a remainer and the best PM we've had in my life time..  His tenure was wrecked by whinging anti-EU 'bastards' and ensured Blair coming to power ...

Unless the brextremist Tories wake up ... we're going to get a Labour govt - and a chance to vote on any deal - again

Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #507 on: October 21, 2018, 04:33:40 AM »
Sadly not ..   I admire their spirit - but think the best way to get a vote on what the govt presents as a 'deal ' or 'no deal' is a referendum on the govt ,,,! 


Interesting that you mention John Major  -  a remainer and the best PM we've had in my life time..  His tenure was wrecked by whinging anti-EU 'bastards' and ensured Blair coming to power ...

Unless the brextremist Tories wake up ... we're going to get a Labour govt - and a chance to vote on any deal - again

Ah, keyboard warrior it is then.

Mobe, I think you must be one of the few that thinks John Major was any good as PM. His premiership was economic recession and mass unemployment thoughout all of his years in office. In the end he & the Tory party as a whole were so unpopular they suffered the worst General Election defeats in their party's history. The electorate were fed up with years of never ending economic downturn and Major's weak leadership. Personally I think he's a decent guy but he was a complete disaster as PM and seemingly oblivious to the economic hardships people were suffering due to his inability to take any action.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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« Reply #508 on: October 21, 2018, 08:07:06 AM »
Ah, keyboard warrior it is then.

...and in recognisable English ? ..

Mobe, I think you must be one of the few that thinks John Major was any good as PM. His premiership was economic recession and mass unemployment thoughout all of his years in office. In the end he & the Tory party as a whole were so unpopular they suffered the worst General Election defeats in their party's history. The electorate were fed up with years of never ending economic downturn and Major's weak leadership. Personally I think he's a decent guy but he was a complete disaster as PM and seemingly oblivious to the economic hardships people were suffering due to his inability to take any action.

Your 'opinions' on subjects from dating to history to Brexit are based - as usual  on bollox ideas / concepts / notions

1/ Major inherited  the recession from Thatcher

2/ He oversaw the Tories being re-elected in 1992 - against all odds - by his soap-box oratories

3/ He was 'undone' by :

a) Euro-'septic' Bastards -  history repeating itself

AND

b) numerous Tory MP scandals - that suggested 4 terms had made the Conservative  Party MPs complacent

I

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #509 on: October 21, 2018, 09:08:00 AM »
Another Brexit vote? Possibly. The latest protest in London demanding a second Brexit vote numbered 700,000 according to some estimates. Mayor of London Sadiq Khan, a number of MPs and celebrities were on hand for the march.

The protests and the size of the protests are likely to grow as the March 29, 2019 deadline for the UK to leave the EU approaches. If the protests grow in size and frequency UK PM Theresa May might be left with little choice but to call another referendum. 

How would a second referendum happen? If May is able to get a deal with Brussels then it must be approved by Parliament. Labour will vote against anything to do with Brexit and there are an unknown number of Conservative MPs that either don't want to leave the EU or are undecided on leaving. Get enough of the undecided to vote against the deal and Parliament won't approve the deal. That means either a general election or a second referendum. Perhaps both. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45925542
http://www.ft.com/content/237d49de-c249-11e8-95b1-d36dfef1b89a

Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #510 on: October 21, 2018, 11:42:12 AM »
Another Brexit vote? Possibly. The latest protest in London demanding a second Brexit vote numbered 700,000 according to some estimates. Mayor of London Sadiq Khan, a number of MPs and celebrities were on hand for the march.

The protests and the size of the protests are likely to grow as the March 29, 2019 deadline for the UK to leave the EU approaches. If the protests grow in size and frequency UK PM Theresa May might be left with little choice but to call another referendum. 

How would a second referendum happen? If May is able to get a deal with Brussels then it must be approved by Parliament. Labour will vote against anything to do with Brexit and there are an unknown number of Conservative MPs that either don't want to leave the EU or are undecided on leaving. Get enough of the undecided to vote against the deal and Parliament won't approve the deal. That means either a general election or a second referendum. Perhaps both. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45925542
http://www.ft.com/content/237d49de-c249-11e8-95b1-d36dfef1b89a

Well as said in the article Dave, Theresa May has already ruled out a second referendum and I think for good reason - that it would solve nothing only add to the confusion. There are essentially four camps in this argument:

- Leave EU completely (no deal)

- Leave EU with a free trade deal (Chequers deal)

- Join/Remain in the EU Customs Union

- Remain in the EU

So big question would be what two options to put to voters in a second referendum, or three, or four. Even if there was a vote in favour of no deal or Chequers Deal it alters nothing, the votes are still needed in Parliament. Many Remain MP's don't respect the reult of the first referendum, I don't see another one changing their mind nor any other politicians position whatever the outcome.

Even Jeremy Corbyn knows a second referendum is putting the cart before the horse. He has called for a General Election and that will be what it will take to resolve this ultimately if Theresa can't get the Chequers Deal done by December.

I personally think Leave completely with no deal would the the best option as it gives a nice clean break were it to be achievable. At present that looks a long shot though so Theresa's Chequers Deal is at least a feasible option if she can complete on it. She could get it through Parliament but it would be tight and it's not assured she would get enough votes. A few Labour (Leave) rebels would probably back it and if she can get enough of her party and the DUP on side without too many rebels she might just squeeze it.

The other option is a Customs Union with the EU. Theoretically there are probably enough MP's from the Tories & Labour to get this through. Theresa is unlikely to go for this though it would not only almost certainly end in a leadership contest but even if she won that it would split her party in two, probably permanently. UKIP could also return to haunt them in elections.

Personally I think a lot of Remainers, MP's included talk about a Customs Union as the easy option, etc. but I don't think it is. If either Labour or the Tories tried to do an agreement with the EU on it I think it would run in to just ax much difficulty as the present negotiations. It's just at the moment they are not present as it's not thd option on the table being discussed. I think the EU would try to squeeze us more than ever, higher contributions to the EU budget, enforcement of policies we don't agree with, etc. I think if a Customs Union were on the table splits would emerge and arguing would begin just as it is now just on differing topics.

It's why though I'm not keen on Chequers I think with all the work done so far it's the option that could sort this all out in the shortest possible time.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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« Reply #511 on: October 21, 2018, 12:17:30 PM »
Another Brexit vote? Possibly.


It may be the new trend in the UK. If you don't like the popular vote on issues or on politicians, protest non stop until you get to vote again. Do any of those hundreds of thousands of protestors have a job and a life?
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Offline ML

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« Reply #512 on: October 21, 2018, 12:42:48 PM »
I think the general public (on both sides) was very ill-informed about the consequences when the first vote was held.

At least now, there should be a better understanding of what it would be like if Brexit continues.

Don't know if it's possible, but . . . I would like to see a procedure whereby a 2/3 majority vote outcome would be required to overturn the first vote. 

If the remain could get 66.67 percent or more of the vote, this would lessen considerably the opposition and calls for a best 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 type of re-voting.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Offline Chelseaboy

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« Reply #513 on: October 21, 2018, 05:06:59 PM »
Why should a 700.000 protest march force a second referendum when millions voted to remain anyway ?


So if the Brexiteers have an 800,000 strong protest does that mean we have a third referendum if a second referendum goes against them ?

Of course a proportion of remainers will hold protests..they only believe in democracy when it suits their own agenda.
Just as the Democrat supporters continue to protest in USA..does that mean there should be another Presidency election in USA now ?

The referendum was held..the remainers lost...done.

As for a better understanding of the consequences of leaving the EU...well most of it is hyperbole from economists who have a track record of getting their predictions totally wrong.

Then we have Mark Carney..does he get any prediction correct ?


The fact is NO-ONE knows for sure what the future holds for the UK outside of the EU.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 05:18:31 PM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

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« Reply #514 on: October 22, 2018, 01:55:46 AM »
Why should a 700.000 protest march force a second referendum when millions voted to remain anyway ?

Simples..

All the voters better understand the cons and pros - of 'Brexit'


The people can have a say on any final 'deal'



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« Reply #515 on: October 22, 2018, 09:08:31 AM »
Why should a 700.000 protest march force a second referendum when millions voted to remain anyway ?


So if the Brexiteers have an 800,000 strong protest does that mean we have a third referendum if a second referendum goes against them ?

Of course a proportion of remainers will hold protests..they only believe in democracy when it suits their own agenda.
Just as the Democrat supporters continue to protest in USA..does that mean there should be another Presidency election in USA now ?

The referendum was held..the remainers lost...done.

As for a better understanding of the consequences of leaving the EU...well most of it is hyperbole from economists who have a track record of getting their predictions totally wrong.

Then we have Mark Carney..does he get any prediction correct ?


The fact is NO-ONE knows for sure what the future holds for the UK outside of the EU.
You’re dealing with Moby here. The poster boy for the remainers.

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« Reply #516 on: October 22, 2018, 09:30:00 AM »
Why should a 700.000 protest march force a second referendum when millions voted to remain anyway ?


So if the Brexiteers have an 800,000 strong protest does that mean we have a third referendum if a second referendum goes against them ?

Of course a proportion of remainers will hold protests..they only believe in democracy when it suits their own agenda.
Just as the Democrat supporters continue to protest in USA..does that mean there should be another Presidency election in USA now ?

The referendum was held..the remainers lost...done.

As for a better understanding of the consequences of leaving the EU...well most of it is hyperbole from economists who have a track record of getting their predictions totally wrong.

Then we have Mark Carney..does he get any prediction correct ?


The fact is NO-ONE knows for sure what the future holds for the UK outside of the EU.

I don't think this single protest is going to bring about a general election or a second referendum. However I think there'll be further protests. Done properly each successive protest should be larger, more vocal, get more news coverage, get more MPs involved, etc.

Some MPs might begin working for another referendum or general election. If May can't get the votes needed in Parliament to pass her deal with Brussels the only alternatives, IMO, will be a general election and/or a second referendum. 

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« Reply #517 on: October 22, 2018, 11:19:04 AM »
I don't think

would suffice ;)

The protests are to make it clear that if the govt ignore 'us' they  can be sure of a good kicking - if another party promises such a vote ....

Despite what the govt may say - they need the DUP to survive and THEY will dump the govt if they are forced into a 'no deal' scenario - as they know they might not get re-elected ..  ( N.Ireland is 70 percent Remain

The Scots Tories were reported to have agreed to support the govt - but - again Scotland is heavily remain - so they would be ensuring their funerals

Then there's the chance that Labour will promise the earth to get into govt and the DUP will not be relevant in any new govt







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« Reply #518 on: October 22, 2018, 11:31:50 AM »
would suffice ;)

The protests are to make it clear that if the govt ignore 'us' they  can be sure of a good kicking - if another party promises such a vote ....

Despite what the govt may say - they need the DUP to survive and THEY will dump the govt if they are forced into a 'no deal' scenario - as they know they might not get re-elected ..  ( N.Ireland is 70 percent Remain

The Scots Tories were reported to have agreed to support the govt - but - again Scotland is heavily remain - so they would be ensuring their funerals

Then there's the chance that Labour will promise the earth to get into govt and the DUP will not be relevant in any new govt
And what do you think is going to happen if any party ignores the referendum and rides roughshod over the voices of 17.4 million voters. Eh?

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« Reply #519 on: October 22, 2018, 11:43:43 AM »
Posted in the other place.......absolutely spot on.




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« Reply #520 on: October 22, 2018, 11:56:00 AM »
You might as well have used a rabid dog 

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« Reply #521 on: October 22, 2018, 12:06:25 PM »
You might as well have used a rabid dog
You seem upset. Rubbed you the wrong way with a few home truths it seems.

Carry on Remoaning.

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« Reply #522 on: October 22, 2018, 12:41:26 PM »
Posted in the other place.......absolutely spot on.




Man, no dog in the UK's current political climate fight, but listening to this video it almost have a hauntingly similar note with our current political situation at home. Leavers being the Republicans, remainers the Dems. Especially on the topic of 'open borders'.
~Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people~ Gator :P

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« Reply #523 on: October 22, 2018, 01:39:39 PM »

Man, no dog in the UK's current political climate fight, but listening to this video it almost have a hauntingly similar note with our current political situation at home. Leavers being the Republicans, remainers the Dems. Especially on the topic of 'open borders'.
Didn’t you know, Remainers/Democrats- cut from the same cloth.  Any means to their end and employ the same tools dirty tricks to achieve their nefarious goals.

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« Reply #524 on: October 22, 2018, 01:48:53 PM »
Didn’t you know, Remainers/Democrats- cut from the same cloth.  Any means to their end and employ the same tools dirty tricks to achieve their nefarious goals.

Admittedly, I paid little attention to this situation as I figured it was a done deal before once the votes came in. But...

From my pov, the EU isn't losing a 'member', but rather gaining a potential trade partner in close proximity. Mehopes they find a mutually equitable solution to this...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 02:02:07 PM by GQBlues »
~Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people~ Gator :P

 

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia by msmob
Today at 11:13:44 PM

Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia by krimster2
Today at 10:51:02 PM

Re: Time for some Humor!! by Gator
Today at 10:13:36 PM

Re: Time for some Humor!! by Gator
Today at 10:12:40 PM

Re: Time for some Humor!! by Gator
Today at 10:11:23 PM

Re: Time for some Humor!! by Gator
Today at 10:10:31 PM

Re: SC meets Moby in Georgia and we end up in ...Armenia ? by msmob
Today at 10:06:26 PM

Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia by msmob
Today at 09:36:51 PM

Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies by krimster2
Today at 06:35:57 PM

Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia by krimster2
Today at 06:12:03 PM

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