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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 39265 times)

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Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #600 on: November 16, 2018, 12:03:14 AM »
Yes, we know how much weight to give to your Ďpredictionsí. About as much as to a used sheet of toilet paper is how much.
Moby still banging the remoaner drum.

Sadly our JG can't have been paying attention ..

From the get go I've CONSTANTLY pointed out - a the campaign stage - that 'leave' were essentially lying as the Irish border question was a circle that could not be squared

The wonderful election called by Mrs May  - to 'enhance' her position - boy did she misread the nation- resulted in MY dream scenario with a Tory govt - thinking they'd run the economy, better  - but ham-strung by the need to appease the DUP - who bizarrely want a Brexit - but retaining an open border with Ireland

Do I want to see the UK 'out' but having to obey EU rules - hell NO..

FAR better to be I  the club and at the table ..

Now we can see the 'leave campaign' was a dubiously funded joke and the effects of Brexit are better understood - the likes of JG are scared of a second referendum - 'undemocratic' - as they KNOW the result will be REMAIN

As always, I'm grateful for your well -reasoned, point-by point- rebuttals of my assertions - particularly the one re better educated people voted REMAIN ;)

It's time for Rees-Mogg to make good his promise and form a new party -  the Tories can get trashed in an election, allow Labour to screw up and we can be rid of the Euro-septics that have torpedoed this govt

It's going to be 10-20  years before this mess is forgotten and multi-nationals will trust the UK to invest .. UNLESS we simply admit this was a farcical mistake

David Cameron's deal  with the EU - pre the Brexit referendum- is now looking FANTASTIC

http://www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-eu-reform-deal-scorecard-brexit-eu-referendum-agreement/












Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #601 on: November 16, 2018, 07:41:52 PM »
Sadly our JG can't have been paying attention ..

From the get go I've CONSTANTLY pointed out - a the campaign stage - that 'leave' were essentially lying as the Irish border question was a circle that could not be squared

The wonderful election called by Mrs May  - to 'enhance' her position - boy did she misread the nation- resulted in MY dream scenario with a Tory govt - thinking they'd run the economy, better  - but ham-strung by the need to appease the DUP - who bizarrely want a Brexit - but retaining an open border with Ireland

Do I want to see the UK 'out' but having to obey EU rules - hell NO..

FAR better to be I  the club and at the table ..

Now we can see the 'leave campaign' was a dubiously funded joke and the effects of Brexit are better understood - the likes of JG are scared of a second referendum - 'undemocratic' - as they KNOW the result will be REMAIN

As always, I'm grateful for your well -reasoned, point-by point- rebuttals of my assertions - particularly the one re better educated people voted REMAIN ;)

It's time for Rees-Mogg to make good his promise and form a new party -  the Tories can get trashed in an election, allow Labour to screw up and we can be rid of the Euro-septics that have torpedoed this govt

It's going to be 10-20  years before this mess is forgotten and multi-nationals will trust the UK to invest .. UNLESS we simply admit this was a farcical mistake

David Cameron's deal  with the EU - pre the Brexit referendum- is now looking FANTASTIC

http://www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-eu-reform-deal-scorecard-brexit-eu-referendum-agreement/

Cameron's deal with the EU was rejected by voters in the referendum. Most of it is just reiterating what was already the case, some of it gave a little but in areas that the electorate were not most concerned about - they were concerned about immigrants taking up much needed housing & jobs from the local population more than they were concerned about immigrants accessing benefits/sending child benefit home. Cameron's deal did no go far enough to satisfy voters nor did they trust that it would be honoured long term by the EU.

The Irish border is a situation that can be squared but the EU doesn't want to, it thinks it can rope the UK back under its control by using the Irish border as a contentious issue on which it can be awkward.

Big International companies have no choice other than to be here, the UK is too big a market for them to shun whatever they say. They are just threatening leaving if they don't get their way. Any that did would soon regret it, a competitor or smaller company would more on and flourish in the market it gave up.

The big issue with a second referendum Mobers is precisely the fear that there is a vote for Remain. I agree that that is the reason the problem is Remainers think it all ends there IT DOESN'T! Remainers can't see any further up the road than a push to hold a second referendum and a Remain win. Leave supporters would be incensed and furious at such an outcome that their chance to leave the EU had been taken away from them. Leavers would still point to the first Referendum as the one that should have been honoured but wasn't. The division between Leavers & Remainers would get more severe than it already is and increasingly uglier. Leave would then be pressing for all sorts of redress of tge situation and increased violence and bitterness ever increasing. During the first referendum one MP was murdered, pushing this matter to a second referendum could bring about a lot of bloodshed.

That is why it is utter foolishness and irresponsibility for Remainers to push for a second referendum. It really does solve nothing, it would only thrust the UK in a pointless bitter entanglement that would serve no purpose. Any attempt to Remain in the EU without Leave being allowed a chance to take the UK out of the EU would turn into a hostile fight all the way.

It shocks me to see Remain MP's like David Lammy being incredibly short sighted in constantly asking for a second referendum. Even if a second referendum was held and Remain won they would not ever get the easy 'stay in the EU' course the think they will get. Unfortunately they just seem too thick to get that. They would'nt even be able to agree between them what option to have in the referendum never mind anything else, it's just plain ludicrous.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #602 on: November 16, 2018, 09:11:20 PM »
 error post. 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #603 on: November 16, 2018, 10:27:52 PM »
Cameron's deal with the EU was rejected by voters in the referendum.

Wow, more 'understanding' of the real situation by Trenchie !;)

Cameron's deal was indeed rejected- but is was FAR stronger than we have now and that will be diluted to UK PLC having to respect EU rules without making them - unless we get real

The big issue with a second referendum Mobers is precisely the fear that there is a vote for Remain. I agree that that is the reason the problem is Remainers think it all ends there IT DOESN'T! Remainers can't see any further up the road than a push to hold a second referendum and a Remain win. Leave supporters would be incensed and furious at such an outcome that their chance to leave the EU had been taken away from them. Leavers would still point to the first Referendum as the one that should have been honoured but wasn't. The division between Leavers & Remainers would get more severe than it already is and increasingly uglier. Leave would then be pressing for all sorts of redress of tge situation and increased violence and bitterness ever increasing. During the first referendum one MP was murdered, pushing this matter to a second referendum could bring about a lot of bloodshed.

Except that that the reason a second referendum IS democratic - is that those changing their minds will KNOW the facts - which is why leave wold lose - they LIED




It shocks me to see Remain MP's like David Lammy being incredibly short sighted in constantly asking for a second referendum.

But it isn't short-sighted - it's demonstrating what the majority want - now they KNOW the deal

Even if a second referendum was held and Remain won they would not ever get the easy 'stay in the EU' course the think they will get. Unfortunately they just seem too thick to get that. They would'nt even be able to agree between them what option to have in the referendum never mind anything else, it's just plain ludicrous.

If we vote remain - they nothing changes - we just wouldn't have the better deal Cameron got for us - 'ruined' by folks who didn't have a clue what they were voting for in June 2016

Face it, Trenchie ...  I told you this farce was coming .. 


Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #604 on: November 17, 2018, 12:12:24 PM »
And if Remain were to lose a second referendum what then? They would then be arguing fir a third referendum because the 'customs union option' was not included. They moaned about that after the first referendum. Some indeed would want the customs union option on the second referendum not a stay a member in the EU option as that has already been voted upon.

Meanwhile Leavers would argue that it is unfair as each referendum is an attempt to unfairly reverse the result of the first referendum. People would get more entrenched, the situation would get more complex not less, ie working out which referendum to honour.

Further referendums are essentially unwinable. There are at least three options to choose from to put on the sheet - four if the Brexit Deal is ever resurrected. However, you can really only version have 2 options on any one referendum, above this and people are that it was unfair as the vote was split that had only 2 options been put to voters their option would have won. Put 2 options though apart from a simply in or out as we have had already and people argue their prefered option was not there to choose.

Now that I have explained it to you do you see why it would be foolish to call a second referendum? The UK must be allowed to leave the EU, given a good 5-10 years out then another referendum could be put to voters on rejoining if the results of leaving have not been good. That is the only way abother referendum should come about. Trying to rerun thd first referendum is sheer folly. Unfortunately many arguing for a second referendum don't look any further beyond what happens were they to be granted one that is the stupidity of it.

Offline Blighty

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #605 on: November 17, 2018, 12:51:16 PM »
It would be a good idea for people to re-read the original government leaflet which described the 2016 referendum as a 'once in a generation vote' at http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

If anyone cannot understand this leaflet then there is a simplified version at http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525022/20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf

It was made clear to us that the UK would leave the single market and that trade deals can take 10 years to negotiate. The remoaners need to read this leaflet again to help them understand that democracy must be respected! Both sides told lies, but that is the trademark of our politicians.



Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #606 on: November 17, 2018, 08:31:30 PM »
Blighty

It is now abundantly clear that leave folk know if there is a vote on the deal what will happen

You can  carry on making excuses and showing us 'the rules' from nearly 4 years ago

I'm living in the present ...


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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #607 on: November 19, 2018, 04:58:16 PM »
Well it looks like Theresa May is carrying on trying to flog a dead horse, big mistake! :deadhorse:

The DUP are either abstaining from the vote or even siding with Labour on amendments to the Budget bill showing that there is no way they will back the deal.

There is also trouble starting to brew across the channel for the deal from the Spanish, etc.

There's no way its going to pass or should pass & Theresa would be best off dropping the whole thing before any vote on it in December.

It certainly looks like the only way forward on this all now is No Deal and complete Brexit, its the cleanest bestest way. To that end I've just joined up to 'Leave Means Leave' and I'm sure many others are. No one expected the clangers the EU put in at the last moment in the Chequers Deal which essentially sinks any chance there may have been to reach a reasonable compromise. Think were best off getting away from typical EU awkwardness as fast as we can, it will be there economy that suffers badly long term, not ours :) 

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #608 on: November 20, 2018, 10:40:25 PM »
Blighty

It is now abundantly clear that leave folk know if there is a vote on the deal what will happen

You can  carry on making excuses and showing us 'the rules' from nearly 4 years ago

I'm living in the present ...

Well I'm hoping they bring the vote up quickly so it can be voted down and we then automatically default to a 'No Deal' Brexit, Hooray!!! :clapping: :D

Meanwhile good to see you've chosen to go to the back of the line after your 'queue jumping' Mobers, you naughty boy you ;D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46274118


Well anyway looks also like a General Election is probably looking like it's off the table. The farce of a deal the EU put forward with thd big clanger of the UK being held to the EU in a temporary customs union with no means of exit has seen to that. It's put the Tories in such disarray that I doubt that any of them would want a GE as they would look set to heavily lose out to Labour due to all the infighting now present their. Quite a twist but looks like it could handily throw this in the direction of No Deal once the Chequers/EU deal is voted down which looks pretty certain at the moment :) After that Theresa has little place to turn but No Deal hence the hold off on the confidence vote as Brexiteers in the Tory party come to realise this I think. Me thinks our Mobers has worked this out too hence the quietness from him on here in recent days about it ;D
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 11:17:31 PM by Trenchcoat »

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #609 on: November 22, 2018, 10:31:24 AM »
Well the deal that is being put forward to the UK got worse today but came across as an exercise in papering over the cracks rather than fixing them. It shows that little has been achieved in negotiations in the last two years which is unfortunate as I think it really could have been. Instead we have a lot of last minute fudges over issues that should have been sorted long ago and trade negoiations that should have been given a good few weeks to have been sorted out long ago just been hastily given a few days and a right hash made off it. I really don't think this stands a chance off passing in Parliament which is just as well really. I do think though this shows great incompetance on the EU side more than the Government, its symbolic of the EU awkwardness and lack of skill in negotiating. Previous example being when they were trying to negotitate a trade deal with the US which fell through due to EU awkwardness.

Todays's declaration cruicially promises to fix nothing that is wrong with the withdrawal agreement. It gives no-one anything! Essentially the withdrawal agreement needs to go back to the table or the whole lot will sink quickly when it comes to a vote in Parliament. Too much done too quickly and left too late in the day to sort out. It means really that no headyway in agreements was made and its all gets put off to way later but binds us to being with the EU, ridiculous to carry on in such a manner. Better to avoid this whole inconceived tosh and go for a clean all out No Deal Brexit.

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #610 on: November 24, 2018, 04:59:39 AM »
This is the article I like :) Tells us clearly that we will be leaving the EU with 'No Deal' :D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46320368

No doubt why our Mobers has been so quiet on his favourite topic here of late! ;)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #611 on: November 24, 2018, 11:24:50 PM »
Mober's isn't in the UK and 'busy' .. 

I read the article and I see that Mrs May might lose on a vote on her version of a deal

AND that she is

"Theresa May has written a letter to the British public pleading for their support for her Brexit deal, as the EU prepares to formally sign it off."

So. let us give her the answer ......

You KNOW we'd be staying ...

We will not have a 'no deal departure'

The EU will realise that if they wait the Brexitremists will screw themselves

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #612 on: November 25, 2018, 01:50:11 AM »
Mober's isn't in the UK and 'busy' ...

Yep I bet you are  :) I can visualise now our paddy fraughtly running around his newly set up operation in the Republic of Ireland in distress! Muttering to himself 'oh, I've made a terrible, terrible mess, I'll have to get this all sorted out & move it all back to Blighty quickly' lol.

Realising of course that a now almost certain 'No Deal' Brexit will mean that the Republic of Ireland will be facing tariffs, loss of trade & economic collapse as it loses easy access to its biggest trading partner - the UK :D

Myself I am going to enjoy watching the Rep of Ireland's economy go into meltdown, might be able to pick me self up a cheap investment there if I wait till after Brexit. The women there might get like Ukrainian girls and be looking for a nice foreign guy to take them away from all of the economic fallout :)

Can't wait for all of it to happen!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 01:52:36 AM by Trenchcoat »

Offline John Gaunt

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #613 on: November 25, 2018, 07:25:31 AM »
Blighty

It is now abundantly clear that leave folk know if there is a vote on the deal what will happen

You can  carry on making excuses and showing us 'the rules' from nearly 4 years ago

I'm living in the present ...
Really?
Moby knows something the rest of us donít. Thereís a surprise.
It must be Mobys lordly connections feeding the trollster.
Anyway, it isnít going to get through parliament unless those lily livered MPís shysters do one.
That means a general election.
Either way, there is now not enough time so it would seem, regardless, on the 29th of March the UK will crash out of the EU as per statute.

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #614 on: November 25, 2018, 10:59:29 AM »
Really?
Moby knows something the rest of us donít. Thereís a surprise.
It must be Mobys lordly connections feeding the trollster.
Anyway, it isnít going to get through parliament unless those lily livered MPís shysters do one.
That means a general election.
Either way, there is now not enough time so it would seem, regardless, on the 29th of March the UK will crash out of the EU as per statute.

I'm not so sure there will be a General Election now, in fact it's probably quite unlikely. If the EU hadn't done a number on Theresa and it was just the DUP to jettison in getting her deal through then there probably would have been one. However, now that the ERG Brexiteer Tories have also come out dead set against the deal i.E at least 70-80 or so MP'S in her own party it's pretty pointless risking a GE. Even if she was returned with a majority government she is unlikely to have a majority over the 70-80 ERG/Brexiteer's in her own party to beat them in a commons vote.

The only way she might win for this deal is if Labour Remainers vote in significant numbers for it, a free vote on Parliament may make that easier but it doesn't look like they will. They seem to be set on a customs union and seem to be with JC in facing down a bill from 'the opposition'. I personally don't think she'll get the needed votes from Labour or anywhere else, I at least hope not. All seem to be against and I can't see the ERG/Brexiteers coming around & voting for it either. It looks like all sides would rather bat for what they truely want then get stuck in this ill-contrived mess of a deal.

I think Theresa will put if to a commons vote just to see it through then she will move to a 'No Deal' Brexit as the remaining default option. She might quit on losing the vote but I doubt it, any abiguity is likely just posturing. It's not really a David Cameron moment where he was on the complete opposite & losing side of the whole Leave/Remain situation. I think a lot of Tory Brexiteers ate not in a hurry to get rid of her in fear of a Remain Tory becoming leader, then it really all could go south. I think it will end up being a 'No Deal' Brexit by default and a lot of Remainers will give way to this in the Commons after so long trying to oppose it.

Just really a case of sitting it out now till the vote :popcorn:

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #615 on: November 27, 2018, 01:10:21 AM »

Either way, there is now not enough time so it would seem, regardless, on the 29th of March the UK will crash out of the EU as per statute.

Ha, you think the EU won't put the brakes on if there's a new govt

OF COURSE I know something ... I'm certainly wiser than you

Offline John Gaunt

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #616 on: November 27, 2018, 04:31:16 AM »
Ha, you think the EU won't put the brakes on if there's a new govt

OF COURSE I know something ... I'm certainly wiser than you
Yes, you show us every time you post.  :ROFL:

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #617 on: November 27, 2018, 04:52:56 AM »
Well it looks like most politicians are already going public that they will vote against the bill that will doom the bill just on a numbers front. I'm certainly hoping it will be voted down and we default to a 'No Deal' Brexit. The vote is on the 11th December so fortunately not long to wait. Here an extract from Leave means Leave which shows the strength of support Leave has:

"With Brexit teetering on the brink of disaster as the Prime Minister proposes the worst deal in history, Leave Means Leave is holding a major rally in Westminster.

Join us, and many hundreds of others, in Central London on Friday 14th December. The speakers are Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, Sammy Wilson MP, Kate Hoey MP, Wetherspoons Chairman Tim Martin and Graham Stringer MP.

The Government is selling the country a deal which would leave us a complete vassal state to the EU. It would leave us in a worse state than we are in now.

So letís make our voices heard in the Queen Elizabeth II Centre on Friday 14th December at 6:45pm. Buy your tickets here before they sell out!

We look forward to seeing you there.

John Longworth, Richard Tice & Nigel Farage
Leave Means Leave"

So the Hoe is on board with voting the bill down so I am supposing other LAbour rebels will also. Apparently Theresa is also facing so Remoan Tory MP's voting against the bill who want a 'second referendum/customs union, etc' so its unlikely few if any Labour Remoan Mp's will vote for the bill. Looking highly likely this bill will be crushed and gain few votes in the house of commons.

I doubt the DUP will pull the plug on the gov. They will likely know to do so would risk a Labour gov and a customs union with the EU which the DUP don't want either (there's no pleasing some ;D). I think they'll have little choice than to follow on to a 'No Deal' Brexit and ask the Tories to sort out border issues after we leave the EU, its the only real option they've got.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #618 on: November 27, 2018, 08:00:44 PM »
Well the problems the EU are causing the UK in terms of illegal immigration seem clear in this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-46364929/footage-shows-people-smuggling-plans-over-channel-crossing

Seems they are trying to get in before Brexit which shows why we need out of the EU & a 'No Deal' Brexit to stop all these illegal entries into the UK. If we gain the power to swiftly repatriate them they will stop coming, safer for them and proper that they wait in line with everyone else I think.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #619 on: November 29, 2018, 02:12:24 AM »
Looks like support for Remain is beginning to fall away:

"It has been said to me that it's significant that Diane Abbott is now publicly wary of being seen to want to re-run a referendum.

The party's own polling has been showing a slight erosion in support for Remain."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46365397

I myself get the impression that Remainers are finally starting to tire of Remoaning. Over the past week or so there seems to be a quietening down of calls for another referendum. I think Remoaners are starting to realise there is little appertite now among the population to be put through another referendum in this issue. Even our own turncoat remoaner Mobers seems to have fled what is increasing becoming for Remainers a lost cause ;D

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #620 on: November 29, 2018, 02:47:21 AM »
Well the problems the EU are causing the UK in terms of illegal immigration seem clear in this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-46364929/footage-shows-people-smuggling-plans-over-channel-crossing

Seems they are trying to get in before Brexit which shows why we need out of the EU & a 'No Deal' Brexit to stop all these illegal entries into the UK. If we gain the power to swiftly repatriate them they will stop coming, safer for them and proper that they wait in line with everyone else I think.

Never the most clued up poster, our Trenchie is falling for the guff the people smugglers are telling potential paying clients.

Wiser posters will have noted the article quotes the gangs ....it is not factual.

If anything crashing out of the EU with no agreement  would likely mean the French will tell the UK take it's border control back  to the UK side and wash their hands of the immigrants wishing to cross




Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #621 on: November 29, 2018, 02:59:01 AM »
Looks like support for Remain is beginning to fall away:

))) according to who?  ..Corbyn's ex mistress ?!

We know leaving will make us poorer...the Bank of England published their estimates...

Continue in cloud cuckoo land

This is about what we want, NOW...the UK public are better informed to make a choice

You KNOW you will lose if 'we' get that vote...






Offline BC

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #622 on: November 29, 2018, 03:16:45 AM »
Brexit yes or no, soft or hard, things are changing...

American Express just advised me that they changing from American Express Services Europe Limited (UK) to American Express Europe S.A. (Spain) for cards issued to folks in EU, as of 1 Feb 2019.

Other UK based financial institutions are sure to follow, if they haven't taken such steps already.




Offline Blighty

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #623 on: November 29, 2018, 03:41:20 AM »
We know leaving will make us poorer...the Bank of England published their estimates...

Cheer up, its only 'Project Hysteria' ... worse things happen at sea!

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #624 on: November 29, 2018, 03:59:19 AM »
...and still the 'patriots' believe the Bank of England have an agenda to fib?))

Then there's Public Accounts Committee's findings that many UK govt depts will not be reading and 'we' are blowing money on IT systems to 'cope' with a  'no deal scenario'..

Just search Brexit reality check..

I feel so sorry for those Brits providing services that in the event of a no deal, or Mrs May's 'deal will suddenly find they are illegally working...

Bonkers..


 

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