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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 95269 times)

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Online BillyB

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2100 on: September 10, 2019, 12:37:43 PM »
Which is why a BINDING referendum..unlike the binary 2016 one, is the fairest solution..



"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"


That is what your government told voters right before the Brexit vote. Whatever the vote was going to be, they promised to make it binding in an advertisement in the photo below. Are you saying they are allowed to lie and don't have to implement what people decide? They can put all kinds of votes in front of people to make them feel important they are part of the decision process but if the government doesn't like their vote, they can ignore it? Trump lying gets you upset but it's okay if your government lies?
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Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2101 on: September 10, 2019, 12:57:51 PM »
)))

If ONLY I had a £1 from every Muppet who quotes that VERY old and much debunked bollox.. 

There was a legal finding of fact re the first referendum... ADVISORY ..

There's what happens when you think Google makes you look 'smart' .. :rolleyes:

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2102 on: September 10, 2019, 01:01:55 PM »
Jone in Mega Muppet mode

2 are before the Supreme Court on the 17th... Has the Belfast High Court ruled and I missed it ?

It is FOUR cases, BTW..

Boris can try and do a deal...

But if he tries to treat N.I as different, he has already lost all her MPs..

I'm sorry.  I fail to see WHICH of these cases stopped Prorogation.   None of them did.   So that makes Moby look like he's punting again.  Or perhaps you missed the Prorogation Ceremony held yesterday?
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Offline BC

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2103 on: September 10, 2019, 01:03:03 PM »
Leave with deal, Leave without a deal, repeal article 50 ...then we can move on.

Better said: Leave with THE deal....

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2104 on: September 10, 2019, 01:27:24 PM »
I'm sorry.  I fail to see WHICH of these cases stopped Prorogation.   None of them did.   So that makes Moby look like he's punting again.  Or perhaps you missed the Prorogation Ceremony held yesterday?

You SHOULD be sorry..

I read what you posted ..

"Well, none of Moby's three lawsuits panned out (like he promised us).   "


1/ Again .. it's FOUR

2/ Two have not been heard, yet as the GOVT said, "what's the rush as the no to no deal Bill has made the cases moribund"

Do try to keep up, Jone and fess up to your howlers ..




Online BillyB

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2105 on: September 10, 2019, 01:37:46 PM »
)))

If ONLY I had a £1 from every Muppet who quotes that VERY old and much debunked bollox.. 

There was a legal finding of fact re the first referendum... ADVISORY ..

There's what happens when you think Google makes you look 'smart' .. :rolleyes:

I think you're high on crack cocaine. The UK keeps good records. Here's one of the leaflets on your government's site that says the government will implement what the people decide.

http://tinyurl.com/y2rj3du7

Here is David Cameron on video saying it's the UK citizens decision on Brexit, NOT Parliments, NOT politicians, NOT lobby groups, and it will NOT be his decision on which direction to go. The only people that will decide are the UK citizens. Seems like many of your politicians are resisting the will of the people. You going to claim that video been debunked too?

« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 03:51:01 PM by AnonMod »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2106 on: September 10, 2019, 01:48:56 PM »
So which of the cases stopped Prorogation as you promised us they would?   

The fact that the UK is in Prorogation now has a significant impact on Parliament's ability to throttle Boris in the event that he breeches his role as PM.   While the anti-No-Deal-Brexit legislation passed, Parliament has little to no control over what BoJo does until October 15th.   Thus a constitutional crisis could be at hand.   And possible dissolution of the UK. 

But Moby, being the smart guy that he is knows all of this.  That's why he has taken to calling me names and insults me because he has no answer.   And it is why he was telling us that the lawsuits were going to stop Prorogation.   Guess what?  They haven't.   The UK has a big problem.  And even novice observers like myself on this side of the pond can see it.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2107 on: September 10, 2019, 02:36:29 PM »
I think you're high on crack cocaine.


I know you don't think, too well..  The on;ly high I seek is sexual .. never smoked or took drugs other [than] imbibing alcohol and I'm up to drinking six units in three weeks..






Here is David Cameron on video saying it's the UK citizens decision on Brexit,



Sighs,

BillyB

Cameron is a VERY smart chap ..

1/ He fell on his sword the day after the non-binding referendum

2/ He knew VERY well that the referendum was NON-BINDING, legally

Some less bright people had to have this explained to them in the form of a legal ruling ..

Some -  less smart folk - STILL  think they know better ..


http://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/


The referendum was not legally binding.


The European Union Referendum Act 2015 didnít say anything about implementing the result of the vote.




« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 11:37:19 PM by msmob »

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2108 on: September 10, 2019, 02:48:07 PM »
So which of the cases stopped Prorogation as you promised us they would?   

Are you suffering from sort of issue that effects you ability to assimilate plain English ?


The fact that the UK is in Prorogation now has a significant impact on Parliament's ability to throttle Boris in the event that he breeches his role as PM.   While the anti-No-Deal-Brexit legislation passed, Parliament has little to no control over what BoJo does until October 15th.   Thus a constitutional crisis could be at hand.   And possible dissolution of the UK. 

1/ Again, the Court cases(4 - not THREE )  are ALL still running

2/ Boris can only get around the Bill - if he produces a deal that the EU agree to


But Moby, being the smart guy that he is knows all of this.  That's why he has taken to calling me names and insults me because he has no answer.   And it is why he was telling us that the lawsuits were going to stop Prorogation.   Guess what?  They haven't.   The UK has a big problem.  And even novice observers like myself on this side of the pond can see it.


Parliament has NOT said Boris cannot agree a deal with the EU and we won't leave .

Whilst that is a 'problem' for me as a 'remain' person - it is not the end of the world - if they can agree.


As you constantly post bollox  - even here- and need correcting  I expect you might have to endure a bit of factual putting down


Boris made the problem for himself - sacking MPs and trying to suspend Parliament - and then not being able to call a G.E.

The EU know that Parliament will be back and Boris has not won a single vote ..

Of course the situation is farcical. But when fools ( surely not Jone, too ? ) were telling me that a  'no deal'  looked inevitable .. I was patiently trying to point out that Boris was in a weaker position than Mrs May..

Suspending Parliament has - ironically- made things worse for HIM ..






Online jone

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2109 on: September 10, 2019, 03:09:14 PM »
Are you suffering from sort of issue that effects you ability to assimilate plain English ?


1/ Again, the Court cases(4 - not THREE )  are ALL still running

2/ Boris can only get around the Bill - if he produces a deal that the EU agree to



Parliament has NOT said Boris cannot agree a deal with the EU and we won't leave .

Whilst that is a 'problem' for me as a 'remain' person - it is not the end of the world - if they can agree.


As you constantly post bollox  - even here- and need correcting  I expect you might have to endure a bit of factual putting down


Boris made the problem for himself - sacking MPs and trying to suspend Parliament - and then not being able to call a G.E.

The EU know that Parliament will be back and Boris has not won a single vote ..

Of course the situation is farcical. But when fools ( surely not Jone, too ? ) were telling me that a  'no deal'  looked inevitable .. I was patiently trying to point out that Boris was in a weaker position than Mrs May..

Suspending Parliament has - ironically- made things worse for HIM ..

Again, assuming that one of the cases actually favors stopping Prorogation, how is it you actually think its going to be stopped?   Prorogation is a FIXED EVENT.   It happened.  The Speaker left Commons and duly reported Prorogation to the HOL.  You seem to infer to people reading the forum that by winning a lawsuit Commons would be called back into session.   You and I both know that is now how a legislative session works.  Typical deceit on your part.

BoJo is a loose cannon.  You have no idea what he is capable of.   That has been the problem from the onset.  You make pronouncements that you do not distinguish from what you wish would happen to what has actually happened.   

There are only three things that we know for sure:

1.  Article 50 is in play.  Whether October 31st or January 31st, it is still the status quo.

2.  The EU hasn't agreed to any 'deal' except for the one that Ms. May brought forth.   

3.  The EU hasn't agreed to extend Article 50 beyond October 31st.

Boris claims he is not going to do anything to extend beyond the 31st of October, even though legislation instructs him to.   Whether that is a bluff or whether he is going to subvert the will of Parliament remains to be seen.   And if he does take steps to leave without a deal prior to the 31st of October my belief is that he will create a constitutional crisis.   It is why having a Parliament in session was so important.

As for your claim that you have patience .........      :ROFL:   I have visions of you throwing a temper tantrum in Maxx's car when you make such a claim.  Patience is not a character trait that I attribute to you.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2110 on: September 10, 2019, 03:12:10 PM »
rosebud

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2111 on: September 10, 2019, 03:40:41 PM »
The European Union Referendum Act 2015 didnít say anything about implementing the result of the vote.


YOUR government SAID they would implement the result of the vote. NEWSFLASH! They don't need a law written in the books to make them keep their promises. They can keep their promises without a law telling them to do so.

Your government took your tax dollars to create and pass out leaflets telling citizens they alone are making the decision and the government will implement what they decide. You have politicians at the highest level on video telling citizens that the citizens vote will be respected and there will not be another renegotiation or 2nd referendum.

You have boasted about UK's superior popular vote over America's electoral voting system yet you scream and shout on various forums for years calling for a popular vote do over when you don't get your way. You only appreciate the popular vote when it suits you. It's people like you that vote for the liars in government who fail to honor their words and promises to the people. And sadly, you like what they're doing.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2112 on: September 10, 2019, 04:16:50 PM »
Still his record as PM now holds a record .. ALL votes lost in Parliament..no wonder he sought to suspend it ...


That made me laugh.


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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2113 on: September 10, 2019, 04:31:08 PM »
Well, none of Moby's three lawsuits panned out (like he promised us).   Parliament is in recess for five weeks.   Enough time for Boris to make a little mischief (unfortunately).

They're being appealed, and it ain't over until the House of Lords rules. 

I can see two arguments - one is that proroguing Parliament is at the discretion of the Crown.  If that is the case, then the court will hold that a review is outside its power.*  The opposite argument is that prorogation is contrary to the sovereignty of Parliament.

*Sir Stephen Sedley, a prominent British jurist, former appellate court justice, and professor of law at Oxford University, has stated the choice of date of prorogation vests in the Crown, not the prime minister. Therefore, the Crown has unlawfully delegated is power of prorogation by allowing the prime minister to choose the precise date of prorogation.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v41/n17/stephen-sedley/a-boundary-where-there-is-none

Personally, I believe the issue here is time, rather than legality.

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« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 04:33:37 PM by Boethius »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2114 on: September 10, 2019, 04:46:42 PM »
The Black Rod was present.  The members of Commons were summoned.  Prorogation occurred.  Members of Parliament were sent home.  By Her Majesty's assent. 

Are you suggesting that Members of Parliament could be called back into session after this has occurred?  By what procedure, what precedent?
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2115 on: September 10, 2019, 04:52:11 PM »
Yes, they can be forced back, if the courts hold the prorogation was ultra vires.  That would be the procedure.  This isn't directed at you, jone, but some posters here will assume I am setting out a position here.  I'm not.  I can just see the legal arguments on both sides.

The issue really is timing, as I can't see an appellate court hearing an appeal and ruling on it, in such a short period.  Assuming I'm correct on this point, even a "loss" is a "win" for Boris Johnson.

Here is one precedent -

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2001/2001canlii21164/2001canlii21164.html

And another -

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1984/9.html

A few other legal scholars' positions -

http://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2019/09/02/paul-craig-prorogation-constitutional-principle-and-law-fact-and-causation/

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/prorogation-three-assumptions/

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« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 05:31:54 PM by Boethius »
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2116 on: September 10, 2019, 06:15:34 PM »
So what you seem to be saying from the Government's point of view is that even were one of the courts finding against the Government that there would be no time to implement the court's actions, assuming it were not elevated to a higher court (I know nothing about the UK court system). 

The Prorogation occurred.   While the Speaker said that it was not a typical prorogation, he did fulfill all duties associated with it as did the House of Lords.  And Her Majesty gave assent.  As an outside novice, that looks to me to be binding.   To find it Ultra Vires would be pretty far-fetched as everything was done according to established law and tradition.

To claim it was done outside of the law would require some violation of the law.  Or am I screwing this up?  To me it looks like the Fat Lady has sung.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2117 on: September 10, 2019, 11:56:41 PM »
Note, no acceptance from Jone as to his daftness..


Again, assuming that one of the cases actually favors stopping Prorogation, how is it you actually think its going to be stopped?   Prorogation is a FIXED EVENT.   It happened.  The Speaker left Commons and duly reported Prorogation to the HOL.  You seem to infer to people reading the forum that by winning a lawsuit Commons would be called back into session.   You and I both know that is now how a legislative session works.  Typical deceit on your part.

1/ 'deceit' ?  What a truly inept 'characterisation' .. from the guy who has no idea of the status of the cases or the number of them ...

2/ IF one of the cases finds Boris has deliberately called the suspension to 'run down the Brexit clock'  - He has had to produce cabinet and other correspondence we will know what 'deceit' is..

3/ I have no idea how the Courts will rule, but IF one rules the ''suspension' was just to run down the clock - but not illegal per say - I'll be happy with that ..

Your 'loose cannon' will have been highlighted as the PM who feared Democracy..



BoJo is a loose cannon.  You have no idea what he is capable of.   That has been the problem from the onset.  You make pronouncements that you do not distinguish from what you wish would happen to what has actually happened.   

Knowing that Boris was to be PM - it didn't matter who would be PM ..I nailed my colours to the mast and stated there'd be no, 'no deal' Brexit - .. 
Same in March of this year ... Let's see who reads situations, better .. ?


There are only three things that we know for sure:

1.  Article 50 is in play.  Whether October 31st or January 31st, it is still the status quo.

I believe the word you are looking contextually for is 'default' .. and MY prediction / preferences haven't changed


2.  The EU hasn't agreed to any 'deal' except for the one that Ms. May brought forth.   

You may have been your usual inattentive self, but *I* noted some potential movement on the backstop .. one that Unionists will hope to torpedo - as it would mean N.Ireland was not treated the same re many goods / agricultural produce ...and we don't know the proposals re migration controls



3.  The EU hasn't agreed to extend Article 50 beyond October 31st.

Boris hasn't need to ask, yet ...



Boris claims he is not going to do anything to extend beyond the 31st of October, even though legislation instructs him to.   Whether that is a bluff or whether he is going to subvert the will of Parliament remains to be seen.   And if he does take steps to leave without a deal prior to the 31st of October my belief is that he will create a constitutional crisis.   It is why having a Parliament in session was so important.

Boris is full of it .. he will cave and then have to deal with thebrexitparty.com and convince the public he was negotiating with arm arm tied behind his back


As for your claim that you have patience .........      :ROFL:   I have visions of you throwing a temper tantrum in Maxx's car when you make such a claim.  Patience is not a character trait that I attribute to you.

Maxx should be congratulated, for convincing you .. to envisage an event that occurred only in his 'world' .. 'pounding of fists' and all that ...   You do know I was sat directly behind Maxx at all times ..?


That confirms to me your 'character evaluation skills'..   

You on the other hand deriving pleasure sharing images you've taken furtively  of other's dating ..ugh ..CREEPY..
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 12:04:30 AM by msmob »

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2118 on: September 11, 2019, 03:13:11 AM »
Good morning, Trench / Jone
BBC News - Parliament suspension ruled 'unlawful'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855



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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2119 on: September 11, 2019, 03:21:25 AM »
YOUR government SAID they would implement the result of the vote. NEWSFLASH! They don't need a law written in the books to make them keep their promises. They can keep their promises without a law telling them to do so.

Your government took your tax dollars to create and pass out leaflets telling citizens they alone are making the decision and the government will implement what they decide. You have politicians at the highest level on video telling citizens that the citizens vote will be respected and there will not be another renegotiation or 2nd referendum.

You have boasted about UK's superior popular vote over America's electoral voting system yet you scream and shout on various forums for years calling for a popular vote do over when you don't get your way. You only appreciate the popular vote when it suits you. It's people like you that vote for the liars in government who fail to honor their words and promises to the people. And sadly, you like what they're doing.

How many howlers in that lot?

1/ Tax £ís..there are other currencies available ...

2/  The PM resigned... The govt make up changed as the new PM, foolishly went for a 'mandate' and ended up relying on a minor party for 'support'...They 'blackmailed' her for that...

3/ I have stated ..quite clearly
.that the Maj. of the UK has an inherently UNFAIR voting procedure.. Only N.Ireland has a form of proportional representation..unlike Great Britain's 'first past the post'...which can allow a govt a majority in the HoC with a huge minority ..

Can you get ANYTHING right?


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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2120 on: September 11, 2019, 04:35:46 AM »
Good morning, Trench / Jone
BBC News - Parliament suspension ruled 'unlawful'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855

Their judgement is politically motivated Mobe, they had no grounds to go against the earlier judge's ruling. The case is now of to the supreme court in London on appeal by the government where it is likely to be overturned back to the original ruling.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2121 on: September 11, 2019, 05:05:02 AM »
Their judgement is politically motivated Mobe, they had no grounds to go against the earlier judge's ruling.

 :ROFL:

Trench, are you now such an 'expert' in LAW ....  I'm not - but I've read their 3 judgements ... NOT looking good for Boris..


The case is now of to the supreme court in London on appeal by the government where it is likely to be overturned back to the original ruling.

Says WHO ?

Remember - there's three more cases to go ... Gina Millar ( including former TORY PM, John Major ) and the two separate Belfast ones..

Once, again .. Boris HAS to deliver a deal - or ask for an extension ... so the 'suspension' issue was all about proving the lows Boris would resort to ..after he lost the No, to 'no deal' Bill

'Anti-democratic' takes on a WHOLE new meaning with this judgement ..


I did tell you to await the Scots appeal ..

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2122 on: September 11, 2019, 08:00:16 AM »
:ROFL:

Trench, are you now such an 'expert' in LAW ....  I'm not - but I've read their 3 judgements ... NOT looking good for Boris..


Says WHO ?

Remember - there's three more cases to go ... Gina Millar ( including former TORY PM, John Major ) and the two separate Belfast ones..

Once, again .. Boris HAS to deliver a deal - or ask for an extension ... so the 'suspension' issue was all about proving the lows Boris would resort to ..after he lost the No, to 'no deal' Bill

'Anti-democratic' takes on a WHOLE new meaning with this judgement ..


I did tell you to await the Scots appeal ..

Won't matter, by the time the whole lot go through we will be closing on a No Deal Brexit and nothing can be done about it :D

Boris is making a run to time out the clock on the 31st October and odds are he'll do it!
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2123 on: September 11, 2019, 10:31:01 AM »
Trench, you do realise that should Boris lose...he will have to resign?

S no confidence vote and KC will be temp PM..

The Tories have cooked their own goose...?

May be Boris can get himself locked up as today's Court ordered that the suspension was NULL and VOID..


Offline lyndontom

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2124 on: September 11, 2019, 11:15:15 AM »
Boris is making a run to time out the clock on the 31st October and odds are he'll do it!


Strange, as the bookmakers strongly disagree with you.

 

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