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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 95302 times)

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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2125 on: September 11, 2019, 12:47:46 PM »
Trench, you do realise that should Boris lose...he will have to resign?

S no confidence vote and KC will be temp PM..

The Tories have cooked their own goose...?

May be Boris can get himself locked up as today's Court ordered that the suspension was NULL and VOID..

I can't see how a court would accept a situation of having a sitting PM and government that aren't allowed to follow their own policies but instead have it decided by the opposition, can't be constitutional. Boris has offered a General Election twice now and has been turned down on each occasion. He's being held in office against his will, hostage to the opposition's agenda, lol.

With the case of to the Supreme Court it's still all ongoing.

Boris has today refused an election pact with Farage. Considering that nearly all Tory MP's are now for Leave Boris must be confident he can make it past the 31st October and save himself being hammered by the Brexit Party. Interesting times.

No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2126 on: September 11, 2019, 12:49:01 PM »
So what you seem to be saying from the Government's point of view is that even were one of the courts finding against the Government that there would be no time to implement the court's actions, assuming it were not elevated to a higher court (I know nothing about the UK court system). 

No, there would be no time if the highest court decides, I assume.  The highest court in the UK is the House of Lords. 

Quote
The Prorogation occurred.   While the Speaker said that it was not a typical prorogation, he did fulfill all duties associated with it as did the House of Lords.  And Her Majesty gave assent.  As an outside novice, that looks to me to be binding.   To find it Ultra Vires would be pretty far-fetched as everything was done according to established law and tradition.

No, it certainly wasn't done in accordance with tradition.    A delegation of powers to an authority (PM) who doesn't have the right to carry out that power can be ruled ultra vires.

I don't know what the outcome will be, but I can see arguments that it is not within the PM's power to request, and receive by order in council, a prorogation of Parliament because he doesn't want a debate or vote within Parliament.  That's the substance of what has occurred.  It appears Scotland's appellate court agrees, on different grounds, although they failed to issue an injunction.

Quote
To claim it was done outside of the law would require some violation of the law.  Or am I screwing this up?  To me it looks like the Fat Lady has sung.

It's in part a substance over form argument, and UK courts generally hold that substance matters.  Nevertheless, I am not saying the Scottish appellate decision will hold.  I haven't read it, as the website has crashed, so all I can go by is reports.

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« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 01:28:27 PM by Boethius »
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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2127 on: September 11, 2019, 01:21:04 PM »
Well, just been listening to the Radio, all the adverts are out telling us to expect Brexit on the 31st October. Looks like it's Brexit then for cert :D
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Offline lyndontom

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2128 on: September 11, 2019, 01:37:30 PM »
Well, just been listening to the Radio, all the adverts are out telling us to expect Brexit on the 31st October. Looks like it's Brexit then for cert :D


You've gotten to the point where you don't even need Moby's help to make you look pretty dumb...

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2129 on: September 11, 2019, 03:51:33 PM »
Listened to a NPR interview today with a British journalist.  When asked what does he expect to happen, he commented, "You would think an experienced journalist would be able to forecast some reasonable outcomes.  The situation is such a crisis, I can not help you."

 

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2130 on: September 11, 2019, 04:36:14 PM »
It's in part a substance over form argument, and UK courts generally hold that substance matters.  Nevertheless, I am not saying the Scottish appellate decision will hold.  I haven't read it, as the website has crashed, so all I can go by is reports.


Full text of official summary of Scottish court's decision

If you have been trying to download the summary of the court’s judgment, you may have had problems. The Judicial Office for Scotland website seems to have having trouble coping with all the interest.

So here it is. This is not the full judgment; just a summary issued to the media. There is no bold text in the original. I have inserted it to highlight the key sentences and paragraphs in the summary.

The Inner House of the Court of Session has ruled that the Prime Minister’s advice to HM the Queen that the United Kingdom Parliament should be prorogued from a day between 9 and 12 September until 14 October was unlawful because it had the purpose of stymying Parliament.

A petition for judicial review was raised by 79 petitioners, 78 of whom are parliamentarians at Westminster, on 31 July 2019, seeking inter alia declarator that it would be unlawful for the UK Government to advise HM the Queen to prorogue the UK Parliament with a view to preventing sufficient time for proper consideration of the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union (Brexit).

A substantive hearing was fixed for Friday, 6 September, but on 28 August, on the advice of the Prime Minister, HM the Queen promulgated an Order in Council proroguing Parliament on a day between 9 and 12 September until 14 October. The Lord Ordinary (the judge hearing the case at first instance) refused to grant interim orders preventing the prorogation, but brought the substantive hearing forward to Tuesday, 3 September. On the eve of the hearing, in obedience of its duty of candour, the respondent lodged some partially redacted documents exhibiting some of the Government’s deliberations regarding prorogation, going back to 15 August.

The Lord Ordinary dismissed the petition. He found that the PM’s advice to HM the Queen on prorogation was, as a matter of high policy and political judgment, non-justiciable; the decision to proffer the advice was not able to be assessed against legal standards by the courts.

The reclaiming motion (appeal) was heard by the First Division of the Court of Session over 5 and 6 September. Parliament was prorogued in the early hours of Tuesday, 10 September.

All three First Division judges have decided that the PM’s advice to the HM the Queen is justiciable, that it was motivated by the improper purpose of stymying Parliament and that it, and what has followed from it, is unlawful.

The Lord President, Lord Carloway, decided that although advice to HM the Queen on the exercise of the royal prerogative of prorogating Parliament was not reviewable on the normal grounds of judicial review, it would nevertheless be unlawful if its purpose was to stymie parliamentary scrutiny of the executive, which was a central pillar of the good governance principle enshrined in the constitution; this followed from the principles of democracy and the rule of law. The circumstances in which the advice was proffered and the content of the documents produced by the respondent demonstrated that this was the true reason for the prorogation.

Lord Brodie considered that whereas when the petition was raised the question was unlikely to have been justiciable, the particular prorogation that had occurred, as a tactic to frustrate Parliament, could legitimately be established as unlawful. This was an egregious case of a clear failure to comply with generally accepted standards of behaviour of public authorities. It was to be inferred that the principal reasons for the prorogation were to prevent or impede Parliament holding the executive to account and legislating with regard to Brexit, and to allow the executive to pursue a policy of a no deal Brexit without further Parliamentary interference.

Lord Drummond Young determined that the courts have jurisdiction to decide whether any power, under the prerogative or otherwise, has been legally exercised. It was incumbent on the UK Government to show a valid reason for the prorogation, having regard to the fundamental constitutional importance of parliamentary scrutiny of executive action. The circumstances, particularly the length of the prorogation, showed that the purpose was to prevent such scrutiny. The documents provided showed no other explanation for this. The only inference that could be drawn was that the UK Government and the Prime Minister wished to restrict Parliament.

The Court also decided that it should not require disclosure of the unredacted versions of the documents lodged by the respondent.

The Court will accordingly make an Order declaring that the Prime Minister’s advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect.


The three Scottish judges, who will issue their reasonings in full on Friday, said unanimously the prorogation was unlawful “because it had the purpose of stymying parliament”.

Carloway, the lord president of the court of session – the supreme civil court of Scotland – said parliamentary scrutiny of the executive was “a central pillar of the good governance principle enshrined in the constitution”.

Lord Brodie said that attempting to frustrate parliament in this way was “an egregious case of a clear failure to comply with generally accepted standards of behaviour of public authorities”.

The court’s summary concluded that Johnson’s prorogation request to the Queen and her decision to accept it “was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect”.

Maugham said: “Our understanding is that unless the supreme court grants an order in the meantime, parliament is unsuspended with immediate effect.

http://cutt.ly/1wFcxz5
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 01:15:43 AM by AnonMod »
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Offline Grumpy

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2131 on: September 11, 2019, 04:46:54 PM »
Yellowhammer document here:

http://cutt.ly/kwFczoi

Redacted portion:
"15. Facing EU tariffs makes petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability but UK Government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans.""This leads to significant financial losses and announcement of two refinery closures (and transition to import terminals) and direct job losses (about 2000). Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions directly supplied by the refineries."
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 01:14:14 AM by AnonMod »
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Offline BC

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2132 on: September 11, 2019, 05:21:07 PM »
Thanks Grumpy.

Doesn't sound like fun at all once the initial Brexit cheering and jeering subside. All that bad energy and divisiveness will likely turn into riots, strikes and blockades which could end up crippling the economy for some time.

There will likely be many other unforeseen consequences as well, both short and long term.

Good times for the pub business tho'.. if they can keep enough in stock.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2133 on: September 11, 2019, 09:00:13 PM »
While the yellowhammer document is labeled "worst case" former cabinet persons have stated it was originally labeled "base case" scenario.  Makes a person wonder what Boris might be hiding.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2134 on: September 11, 2019, 10:00:59 PM »
This MP is now saying what a lot of us in this country believe, that Judges with a pro-Remain bias in the recent Scottish appeal were not impartial but gave an incorrect ruling based on their politics rather than the law:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901

Judges acting so threatens to push this country into civil war as do Remain MP's who just won't give over on a subject they should have accepted defeat following the referendum result.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2135 on: September 11, 2019, 10:42:21 PM »
Then he ( the MP ) is as ignorant as you..

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2136 on: September 11, 2019, 11:19:22 PM »
Trench may have a point. 

What is there to be gained by having a lawsuit decided that will have no impact except to further exacerbate the conflict in the UK?    Prorogation is a natural occurrence at the end of a legislative session.  What alternative is there?   To keep members of  Parliament in session permanently?   No injunction?

By wading into political waters, judges have opined on issues that are best debated in the House of Commons.  While the judges may be upheld next week, there is little time to force MPs back into session.  And for what?   So Her Majesty may again prorogate them?

To quote Tolkein; "There is a sickness that lies over the Greenwood.  People are beginning to call it Mirkwood."   

I am feeling a true threat to the UK.  Boris, kicking out members of his own party, is leading the entire nation into a constitutional crisis.  And he seems oblivious to it.  But, again, that is just from a far away observer's perspective.  You all have a much clearer picture than I do.   
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Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2137 on: September 11, 2019, 11:51:36 PM »
Good Morning, Boethius

I just noticed a possible mistake on your part.

The highest UK Court has been the Supreme Court since 2009.

I am surprised Boris' legal advisors have not advised that appealing does not alter the fact that the Court of Session ruling clearly stated the the 'suspension' of Parliament was null and void.

The only thing Jone has been correct about is that Parliament was suspended..


Now we know why and it's 'lawfullness'...

The papers the Court ordered proved the plan was to Stymie democracy in Parliament.





« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 06:19:29 AM by msmob »

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2138 on: September 12, 2019, 02:23:07 AM »
 :D
Multitasking means screwing up several things at once.

Offline BC

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2139 on: September 12, 2019, 03:12:29 AM »
:D

xactly!!  This has to be the best assessment I have seen.  Totally explains everything :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2140 on: September 12, 2019, 05:35:07 AM »
One of the Belfast High Court 'Brexit' cases has been denied, but an appeal will be heard. This concerned the legality of a 'no deal' exit.

BBC News - No-deal Brexit legal challenge dismissed by Belfast judge
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49676133

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2141 on: September 12, 2019, 07:50:50 AM »
One of the Belfast High Court 'Brexit' cases has been denied, but an appeal will be heard. This concerned the legality of a 'no deal' exit.

BBC News - No-deal Brexit legal challenge dismissed by Belfast judge
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49676133

As I said they are complete and utter tosh, that is why they are being denied and rejected. Only when it comes before biased Remoan judges do they stand any chance. Judges that put their politics in front of the law.

Eventually all these cases will and should fail.

By that time we will no doubt be onto the next round of court cases over Boris not asking the EU for an extention, lol.

If the opposition would agree to an election all of this would be unnecessary, but wait, they are afraid of losing :wallbash:
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2142 on: September 12, 2019, 08:00:42 AM »
Dear Trench,

I missed your qualies in law to make such pronouncements.

The first Belfast case related to no deal's legality ..

The Supreme Court is going to rule on the legality of 'suspending Parliament'..

For the third time...Even the govt say the cases are moribund....Parliament has obliged Boris to find  a deal or ask for an extension...


No matter how the Supreme Court rules, we now know Boris was trying to stymie Parliament...

Spin away... Your prediction is looking less likely by the hour.








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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2143 on: September 12, 2019, 11:52:38 AM »



An entrepreneur from Glos'shire is taking the Govt to Court to ensure that IF Boris does not ask for an extension in the event of a no deal scenario...the Court of Sessions will send the letter..

Dale Vince...Ecotricity and Forest Green Rover s football club...Vegan food only at the ground. )

Just saw it on BBC West country news.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2144 on: September 12, 2019, 12:05:39 PM »


An entrepreneur from Glos'shire is taking the Govt to Court to ensure that IF Boris does not ask for an extension in the event of a no deal scenario...the Court of Sessions will send the letter..

Dale Vince...Ecotricity and Forest Green Rover s football club...Vegan food only at the ground. )

Just saw it on BBC West country news.

Remoan idiots everywhere hell bent on pushing their agenda thoughtless of what the consequences will be.

In this case ONLY the PM qualifies to ask for an extension. Otherwise it would end up silly, why not just ask the commons cleaning lady to deliver it, or anyone else they could nab, lol.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2145 on: September 12, 2019, 12:25:26 PM »
No idea if they will win the case, but Trench, as ever misses the point..

This is about ensuring the UK does not crash out....with no deal..

Many Leave voters do not want THAT...

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2146 on: September 12, 2019, 01:02:15 PM »
Good Morning, Boethius

I just noticed a possible mistake on your part.

The highest UK Court has been the Supreme Court since 2009.


Yes, of course you are correct.  Old habits die hard for old lawyers. :) A few jurisdictions here have renamed themselves from Queen's Bench to Superior Court, and I still use the old description.


My apologies for the confusion.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2147 on: September 12, 2019, 02:55:00 PM »
No idea if they will win the case, but Trench, as ever misses the point..

This is about ensuring the UK does not crash out....with no deal..

Many Leave voters do not want THAT...

We want to crash out Mobers, we want to crash straight through that 31 October deadline :D

What the EU & establishment Remoaners are afraid of is how well of the British general public will find themselves after Brexit.

Today we heard UK oil refineries moaning about tariffs on exports of petrol to the EU they face when we crash out of the EU. Great! cheap petrol for us less profit for them. We've had North sea oil a long time now but have only ever seen the profits been swallowed up by the big oil companies and taken abroad, it's about time the British people benefit and stop being squeezed by these greedy oil companies with no interest in anything other than themselves.
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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2148 on: September 13, 2019, 01:29:47 AM »
We


'We' ?

Who are 'we' - a bunch of clueless folk who have NO idea what they'd encounter, but wish it - because they'll be 'free' ;)  :deadhorse:


Today we heard UK oil refineries moaning about tariffs on exports of petrol to the EU they face when we crash out of the EU. Great! cheap petrol for us less profit for them. We've had North sea oil a long time now but have only ever seen the profits been swallowed up by the big oil companies and taken abroad, it's about time the British people benefit and stop being squeezed by these greedy oil companies with no interest in anything other than themselves.

Once again Daft post = Trench ...  Check up on Norway .. Statoil ..


Norway is an EEA member ... but doesn't set the EU rules.. but abides BY them... 


You DO realise, that possibly two Oil refineries would close , so we'd be back to relying even MORE on foreigners?

Do TRY to understand things before posting and proving you don't ..

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #2149 on: September 13, 2019, 01:57:38 AM »
xactly!!  This has to be the best assessment I have seen.  Totally explains everything :)

BC,

It is worse than that assessment.  Would it be that only the UK spoke with one voice.   In reality, there are opposing factions that are tearing each other apart.    All one has to do is read this forum.   And one can see that each side has staked out a position and that there is no flexibility.   Such is the extremism.

It seems fitting that the Brexit referendum was voted on before the 2016 US Elections.   The UK preceded our populist movement with one of its own.   And the anti-government votes demonstrate that factions are 'all in' prior to the October 31st deadline.   

I'd like to think that the anti-no-deal Brexit Tories would be the reasonable group.   But this group is thwarted by a loose cannon for a Prime Minister.   Somehow, I feel that the US is headed to a similar confrontation where populism vs. liberalism will compete and that there will be no prisoners taken.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

 

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