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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 237469 times)

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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3100 on: September 17, 2020, 11:27:18 PM »
Yes, bend over Mobers and take a spanking!!! :D
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3101 on: September 18, 2020, 03:09:21 AM »
Added to the list..

The Scottish Advocate Gen. has now resigned..

That's a lot of former Tory MPs and now Scotland's govt chief law maker, resigning in protest re the illegality of Boris' stunt...

This is NOT about not leaving...it is about the principle of sticking to agreements ( which I warned was silly and contravened Boris' 'promise' to the DUP, at their party conf. in Nov'18.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18726019.pm-accepts-resignation-scotlands-advocate-general-lord-keen/

You're not very good at reading/understanding but that doesn't mean I'm going to re-tell you what I've already said. And suggesting the SNP will oppose Boris, wont make me fall off my stool. And yes, check before arguing, she is SNP.

Anyhoo, it appears that the EU has got the message and wont play silly buggers over Northern Ireland. They said as much last night. That means that the last resort, card in the back pocket which seems to have really rattled you along with other staunch remoaners, wont be needed. I said before its part of the dance and this move helped cut the EU off at the pass.

Another Brexit win.  ;) ;) ;)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3102 on: September 18, 2020, 03:14:35 AM »
True, but with treaties, there are formal withdrawal procedures.  They are independent of a nation's domestic legislation.  So, the UK still has to rely on international treaties (such as the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties) to withdraw from a signed treaty.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

Tell that to The Donald.

He's rather uncouth in many ways but traditionally in politics, doing the right thing often gets ignored because of bureaucracy and procedures, a bit like the legal system in western societies. I don't mind a bit of directness now and then if it gets the right result.

People like Moby aren't actually that bothered about what our Governments threatened to do, to keep us safe. They're not even bothered by what the EU has threatened to do which is even worse. He's only bitter because he's a serial loser when it comes to Brexit. That's what this is really all about.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:52:30 AM by AnonMod »

Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3103 on: September 18, 2020, 03:29:47 AM »
Ahem, this is not about leaving - that has happened

FACT.. pure and simple ... The UK has already agreed the principle for a frictionless border between the 'Irelands' which was part of the leaving deal..

Moby, why do you make people do extra work and repeat what's already been posted? People get fed up exchanging posts with you because its so much hassle. This isn't about the UK making changes for changes sake. This is about the UK doing whats necessary to protect itself against a less than trustworthy partner. It's actually really simple and you're getting angry at the wrong people because it fits your narrative.


"The truth is the real point about this is one; the EU is threatening to say to us 'we might just say no you don't have the right to sell your goods' and two; the big important internal matter is by doing that is they would force us to cut ourselves off from Northern Ireland with full tariff checks."

"The act of union makes it absolutely clear that all parts of the UK can never have any tariffs or barriers between them. This would breach our very domestic and vital constitutional laws."

"The Government is right to say to the EU, 'if you decide to not come to the joint committee and get rid of this threat, we will have in our back pocket legislation which says this withdrawal agreement has failed and we're going our own way'.We need to tell the EU they cannot go on trying to bully us, we are a sovereign nation now."



Since the above posts were made, the EU has backed down because of the actions of our Government. Winning!!  ;)

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3104 on: September 18, 2020, 05:23:28 AM »
You're not very good at reading/understanding but that doesn't mean I'm going to re-tell you what I've already said. And suggesting the SNP will oppose Boris, wont make me fall off my stool. And yes, check before arguing, she is SNP.

Rosco

I have referred to former Tory PMs, (only Theresa May was a lady,), AG's and former Tory leaders,   only TM was a female leader.



Please show us where I mentioned the SNP?



May be you can explain how 'the EU got any messages', seeing Boris will lose any legal actions re the treaty and the Bill..even if passed, given it's illegality and conflict with the GFA..

I will be proven correct...just like the last stunt re Parliament.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 05:43:33 AM by msmob »

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3105 on: September 18, 2020, 05:48:49 AM »
Rosco, you are a hoot..

Boris has signed a deal to keep within the premise of the GFA ( good Friday agreement)

The UK lost an immigration case based one conflict with the GFA...they thought nations immigration legislation took precedence....

Same in the case...

This old git understood Boris had placed his foot on a mine in Feb '20...


Now this is his 'stunt' to extricate himself and us from his folly..

He WILL lose...

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3106 on: September 18, 2020, 10:51:37 AM »
Tell that to The Donald.

He's rather uncouth in many ways but traditionally in politics, doing the right thing often gets ignored because of bureaucracy and procedures, a bit like the legal system in western societies. I don't mind a bit of directness now and then if it gets the right result.

Name one treaty abrogation that has worked in favour of the US.  Of the 12 demands made on Iran (Trump bragged he would "renegotiate" the Iran deal), zero have been met.  The Trump administration suffered a humiliating defeat on a vote on an Iranian arms embargo before the UN Security Council.  China agreed to purchase more US goods after Trump's "phase 1" deal.  That remains unfulfilled, while Chinese access to the US market was again increased.  NAFTA was basically updated, with no real "win" to the US vis a vis Canada (can't say WRT Mexico, but I don't see GM shutting down its Mexico plants, something Trump promised would happen.)

Let's look at the Trump administration's record on treaties with Canada.  First, because Canada is the US' largest trading partner, and second, because it is the relationship I am most familiar with.  Trump has backed down on every threat to impose tariffs, stop certain trade, etc., with Canada.  Why?  Because Canada imposes countervailing duties in every case.  Just this week, an aluminum tariff imposed by the US on Canada was lifted, because of countervailing duties.  (I don't understand this one, as there currently is an aluminum shortage.)

The point is, when you abrogate treaties unilaterally, the effects usually aren't what you wish.  I also disagree that there has been no effect with respect to Trump's acts.   

This post was composed without the aid of google.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 01:29:31 PM by Boethius »
True love begins when nothing is looked for in return.  Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3107 on: September 18, 2020, 11:56:39 AM »
Britain’s PM Johnson has ‘every hope’ of avoiding no-deal Brexit
Quote
Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Wednesday said he had full confidence that Britain and the EU would avoid a potentially disastrous cliff-edge “no deal” at the end of this year.
     But he refused to back down on controversial new legislation that he openly admits will break international law and which has put his government at loggerheads with Brussels.
The proposed law, which overrides parts of the Brexit treaty relating to trade in Northern Ireland, could torpedo already fraught trade talks with the European Union.
The prospect of a “no deal” is looming larger with the talks deadlocked, and both sides insisting agreement must be struck by next month for it to be implemented at the end of the year.
Johnson told MPs that a “no deal” was “not what this country wants and it’s not what our EU friends and partners want from us”.
“Therefore I have every hope and expectation that that will not be the outcome,” he told a parliamentary committee during more than two hours of questioning.
The UK Internal Market Bill was put before parliament this week, despite EU calls for it to be withdrawn and stark reminders of the need to uphold treaty obligations.
Johnson has claimed the EU could “blockade” food and agricultural products heading to Northern Ireland from mainland Britain by imposing higher duties and tariffs.
Northern Ireland will have Britain’s only land border with the EU from January 1, and remains bound by some EU rules to ensure its border with Ireland stays open.
An open border was a key requirement of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement that brought an end to more than 30 years of violence over British rule in Northern Ireland.
http://www.france24.com/en/20200916-britain-s-pm-johnson-has-every-hope-of-avoiding-no-deal-brexit
~There is no one more blind than those who refuse to see and none more deaf as those who will not listen~

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3108 on: September 18, 2020, 08:22:46 PM »
Well,

This is another casualty of Boris' TRYING a high stakes 'stunt; .. He's now lost a 'big name' who represented a Libertarian presence, too !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54210658

Brexit: Amal Clooney quits government envoy role over law break plan




Amal Clooney has quit her role as the UK's envoy on press freedom "in dismay" at the government's willingness to break international law over Brexit.

"The human rights lawyer said it was "lamentable" for Boris Johnson to be contemplating overriding the Brexit agreement he signed last year.

She could not tell others to honour legal obligations when the UK "declares it does not intend to do so itself".

The PM says he does not want to use the powers in the Internal Market Bill.

But he says the legislation is necessary to give the government the power to protect the UK and, particularly, Northern Ireland if trade talks fail and the EU acts "unreasonably".

In her resignation letter, Mrs Clooney, who is married to Hollywood actor George Clooney, said she had accepted the job last year because of the UK's historic role in upholding the international legal order."


Boris does not represent the maj. opinion of people in N.Ireland ..We care more about the Good Friday Agreement ...

'Carry on', Boris.... you WILL get your little Engerland((

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3109 on: September 19, 2020, 02:37:56 AM »
Big name, I've never heard of her and I'm on the leave side. Couldn't be more low profile if she tried.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3110 on: September 19, 2020, 02:57:28 AM »
Big name, I've never heard of her and I'm on the leave side. Couldn't be more low profile if she tried.

Trench, I am ( even more)  worried about you ... Never heard of George Clooney ?  It's his wife ... :welcome:

PS: Are you in Dorset or Wales ... if the latter ...are you in 'special measures' ?

Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3111 on: September 19, 2020, 03:57:02 AM »
I’ll just let you whinge & cry whilst watching Boris leads our country out of the dysfunctional and corrupt EU. Whatever your feelings Moby, remember you’re in the minority & you’ve lost every vote, election & referendum on the matter.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 04:10:19 AM by AnonMod »

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3112 on: September 19, 2020, 05:11:55 AM »
Trench, I am ( even more)  worried about you ... Never heard of George Clooney ?  It's his wife ... :welcome:

PS: Are you in Dorset or Wales ... if the latter ...are you in 'special measures' ?

Do you really think I follow who every famous persons wife is? She obviously wasn't high profile enough to be known as anything other than his wife.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3113 on: September 19, 2020, 05:46:36 AM »
Trench

She is high profile enough because she's good at her job and before George came along.

It would be super if you understood why her resigning is yet another example of the cock up Boris is making of our 'oven ready deal'..


Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3114 on: September 19, 2020, 06:00:55 AM »
Moby, go back & read about why the UK Gov are taking out the necessary back pocket insurance. It’s a fail safe that’ll never be needed but shows the EU that a sovereign UK won’t get bullied by under hand tactics.

Once you understand why the UK has taken these measures, you’ll realise your hysterical rage is misguided and it’s your beloved EU who are the bad guys in all of this. Try for once to open minded about the greater picture.

Life is easier when you understand what’s happening.

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3115 on: September 19, 2020, 06:14:19 AM »
Rosco,

I know why Boris is doing this....

It is another one of Cummings calculated stunts...


'Win our supporters back'...)))

He has won you and Trench...but lost 3 former Tory PMs and several ministers..and now a respected  UK representative.

Everything going to 'plan'....




Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3116 on: September 19, 2020, 07:08:47 AM »
You’re getting all worked up and you’ve ended up spitting out Dominic Cummings again with your rage......you should join a support group or something!!  ;)

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3117 on: September 21, 2020, 10:29:18 AM »
Rosco,

BBC News - Theresa May to vote against government's Brexit bill
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

Boris is going to lose, sooner or later and better sooner as we, the tax payers, will be stumping up for fines and extra border checks and the corruption and violence that WILL ensue.

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3118 on: September 22, 2020, 05:29:39 AM »
I’ll just let you whinge & cry whilst watching Boris leads our country out of the dysfunctional and corrupt EU. Whatever your feelings Moby, remember you’re in the minority & you’ve lost every vote, election & referendum on the matter.  ;)

Hmm..

I believe you are being a mite selective as to fact.

I was most defo correct on the non legally of the Proroguing of Parliament and in the same way...BANG ON re the non legality of this stunt.


Lest there be any doubt Stormont voted to oppose the Intern Market  Bill supposed to 'help' the people of N.I, yesterday....


Yup.. the representatives of the people it is supposed to 'help' do not want it...




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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3119 on: September 23, 2020, 01:15:53 AM »


Another day, another win for Brexit. Wait until next Tuesday they said, it'll never pass...... Lol

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54252443

Last night the Internal Market Bill passed its latest stage contrary to what the Reomoaners were saying. It's just another defeat in a long line of many and its high time you lot started facing reality. This is a big victory for all Brits and the EU will miraculously now not interpret the agreement in an extreme and unreasonable way.

This was always about protecting the UK from a dishonest EU but the remoaner rage is as ever, aimed at the UK Government. Brace yourself for floods of tears from silly people with EU stars circling their profile picture, it'll be sore for them today.

Happy days!!  :welcome:

« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 02:06:38 AM by Rosco »

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3120 on: September 23, 2020, 01:28:12 AM »
Another day, another win for Brexit. Wait until next Tuesday they said, it'll never pass...... Lol

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54252443

Rosco's very own link points out .."All five living former prime ministers - Theresa May, Sir John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron - have spoken out against the bill."   


This is NOT about 'remain or leave' .... Rosco is  misrepresenting .. It's about sticking to an agreement already made.


The UK is not being the honest broker, here.   Suggesting it is the EU is patent nonsense.

The Bill has to pass one more Commons session and then off to the Lords, where it will get a bumpy ride.  It has not passed, yet.

It has already had to be altered.  The govt has been forced to compromise

"The government amendment to the bill, which was backed by MPs, would prevent ministers using powers to override the Brexit withdrawal agreement unless the Commons had voted to approve it first."




« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 01:50:19 AM by AnonMod »

Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3121 on: September 23, 2020, 01:50:19 AM »
Rosco's very own link points out .."All five living former prime ministers - Theresa May, Sir John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron - have spoken out against the bill."   


This is NOT about 'remain or leave' .... Rosco is ( as usual) misrepresenting .. It's about sticking to an agreement already made.


The UK is not being the honest broker, here.   Suggesting it is the EU is patent nonsense.

The Bill has to pass one more Commons session and then off to the Lords, where it will get a bumpy ride.  It has not passed, yet.

It has already had to be altered.  The govt has been forced to compromise

"The government amendment to the bill, which was backed by MPs, would prevent ministers using powers to override the Brexit withdrawal agreement unless the Commons had voted to approve it first."

You said it wouldn't make Tuesday. It flew past Tuesday. Hang onto those false hopes all you want Moby but the bumps always harder for you lot when you don't prepare......

If you actually read and understood the situation properly, the bit about the commons voting to approve it is key. The Government doesn't want to do it at all but if the EU attempts to shaft us, they'll take it to the Commons to protect the country. That's the whole point Moby.......

Winning.  :clapping:
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 08:24:07 AM by AnonMod »

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3122 on: September 23, 2020, 02:19:53 AM »
No.. you did not.

You told us that I was always wrong.

I offered specific examples of my being correct and legally, so....

In the case of this 'internal market Bill' which Boris tell us it is legislation to 'protect Northern Ireland', can you explain why it has been rejected in Stormont, the regional assembly that represents N.I people?

Are you suggesting Theresa May was now a remainer?


The Bill is without doubt a stunt and conflicts with an international treaty the govt. signed and conflicts with UK laws re the Good Friday Agreement.

You know very well that I know this legislation, better than you, and have used this to actually win v. the UK govt trying it on with illegal immigration 'laws' they had to change.

You are out of your league and will ultimately have to concede.


In the meantime, more 'winning', ahead..

BBC News - Brexit letter warns of 7,000-truck queues in Kent
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54260470

Govt worst case scenario forecasts have been proven way below actual damage re the virus...

This is likely going to be another 'win'..



« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 08:25:47 AM by AnonMod »

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3123 on: September 23, 2020, 03:19:32 AM »
Rosco,

It is noted that you failed to provide any evidence for your assertion.

It is noted that you can't accept the non legality of the bill and it's not being wanted by those it supposedly helps.

I have NO IDEA what has been 'debunked






« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 05:31:05 PM by AnonMod »

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3124 on: September 25, 2020, 07:51:08 PM »
Name one treaty abrogation that has worked in favour of the US. 

The USA has/had a treaty with Iran? I am not aware of any ratified treaty
with Iran.

Treaty(ies) are formally voted on by the US Senate and 2/3 must vote in
favor of for it to hold the force of law.

From the US Senate website
The Constitution provides that the president "shall have Power, by and with the Advice
and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two-thirds of the Senators
present concur" (Article II, section 2). The Constitution's framers gave the Senate
a share of the treaty power in order to give the president the benefit of the Senate's
advice and counsel, check presidential power, and safeguard the sovereignty of the
states by giving each state an equal vote in the treaty-making process.

As Alexander Hamilton explained in The Federalist, No. 75, "The operation of treaties
as laws, plead strongly for the participation of the whole or a portion of the legislative
body in the office of making them." The constitutional requirement that the Senate
approve a treaty with a two-thirds vote means that successful treaties must gain
support that overcomes partisan division. The two-thirds requirement adds to the
burdens of the Senate leadership and may also encourage opponents of a treaty
to engage in a variety of dilatory tactics in hopes of obtaining sufficient votes
to ensure its defeat.

The Senate does not ratify treaties—the Senate approves or rejects a resolution
of ratification. If the resolution passes, then ratification takes place when the
instruments of ratification are formally exchanged between the United States
and the foreign power(s).

http://www.cop.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Treaties.htm

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