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Author Topic: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?  (Read 236108 times)

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Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3200 on: October 16, 2020, 02:36:11 AM »
I assume you're trying to tell the readers that Scotland hates Brexit??  >:(

You are 'correct', though 'hate' might have been overly strong...

Q:1 How did the 'leave' parties do in N.I and Scotland in the Dec 2019 Gen.Election  v. 'remain' ?

Q2: How did the Scots and N.Irish vote re 'Brexit' in the yes/ no referendum of 2016 ? .. Clearly REMAIN



I believe that ( SHOULD) answer your question .... Please note N.I. has Proportional Representation

I've got a fact for you Moby because I know you love facts. More Scots voted for Brexit than the SNP!! You know the SNP who claim to speak for the whole of Scotland. I think you're confusing seats with votes......

Ah, so you agree with me that the first past the post system sucks ? ;)

1/ 2019 General Election FACTS:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50789131

The SNP won 48 seats (but will only have 47 MPs - more on that later), and were runners up in the 11 others. Their 45% of the vote yielded 80% of the seats.

The Conservatives won six seats and were runners up in 20, with their 25.1% of the vote netting them 10% of the seats.

Labour held on to just one seat and were runners up in 25 - their 18.6% of the vote landing them only 1.6% of the seats.

And the Lib Dems won four seats and were in second place in two others, taking 6.8% of the seats with 9.5% of the vote.


So, the SNP won 45% of the vote with the LDs on 9.5%...  I make that 54.5% ..

2/ The 2016 referendum FACTS:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36599102

Scotland has voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38% - with all 32 council areas backing Remain.

Are you suggesting to us these parties voted on 'leave' platform ?


So when you hear that we want independence again and how we're getting dragged out of the EU - be sure to check who's doing the crying and who's doing the polls.

EXACTLY ( re the EU  )   ;)

Boris is too scared to allow another referendum on independence
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 02:41:09 AM by msmob »

Offline BC

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3201 on: October 16, 2020, 02:52:15 AM »


Factory raised, antibiotic-treated, genetically selected, butter injected, GMO fed, frozen turkey-trot goodness.  So standardized that if it doesn't come out right, only the cook gets the blame.

I know... all very 'wrong', but basically a staple in most American households during festive times.

If we can't get one, we can order a local fresh 'Free raised' from our neighbor who keeps a few along with chickens.

Maybe just a bit of nostalgia.


Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3202 on: October 16, 2020, 03:04:29 AM »
Thanks for explaining ...Not sure if one can legally sell such a Turkey under current UK ( complying with EU regs during 'transition' ) food stds regulations

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3203 on: October 16, 2020, 03:18:02 AM »
Thanks for explaining ...Not sure if one can legally sell such a Turkey under current UK ( complying with EU regs during 'transition' ) food stds regulations

Maybe in the future, after Brexit.  Would be fodder for hardening the border for 300,000 tonnes of poultry goods yearly from the UK to the EU.

Quite likely not worth trying.

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3204 on: October 16, 2020, 08:17:04 AM »
Good News! We're not backing down, we're going for No Deal :) Boris made the statement earlier today that due to the EU not being reasonable and trade talks not getting any further on the remaining hold out topics we will move to a no deal scenario and Australia trade terms. I've got to say I think Boris has done exactly right. Worst thing I feared from today was that he would do a Theresa May and back down from his deadline and allow more time, that would be seen as weakness by the EU and would give the green light for them to get their way on all remaining issues.

So we are set to go head to head with the EU next year. I'm confident that we will get the upper hand and the EU will lose out by not striking a trade deal. They import far more into the UK than we export and we can easily find other countries willing to take their place. I think this will be good for the UK in allowing us to be totally independent and go our own way, no EU lording it over us!
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3205 on: October 16, 2020, 12:42:42 PM »
You are 'correct', though 'hate' might have been overly strong...

Q:1 How did the 'leave' parties do in N.I and Scotland in the Dec 2019 Gen.Election  v. 'remain' ?

Q2: How did the Scots and N.Irish vote re 'Brexit' in the yes/ no referendum of 2016 ? .. Clearly REMAIN



I believe that ( SHOULD) answer your question .... Please note N.I. has Proportional Representation

Ah, so you agree with me that the first past the post system sucks ? ;)

1/ 2019 General Election FACTS:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50789131

The SNP won 48 seats (but will only have 47 MPs - more on that later), and were runners up in the 11 others. Their 45% of the vote yielded 80% of the seats.

The Conservatives won six seats and were runners up in 20, with their 25.1% of the vote netting them 10% of the seats.

Labour held on to just one seat and were runners up in 25 - their 18.6% of the vote landing them only 1.6% of the seats.

And the Lib Dems won four seats and were in second place in two others, taking 6.8% of the seats with 9.5% of the vote.


So, the SNP won 45% of the vote with the LDs on 9.5%...  I make that 54.5% ..

2/ The 2016 referendum FACTS:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36599102

Scotland has voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38% - with all 32 council areas backing Remain.

Are you suggesting to us these parties voted on 'leave' platform ?


EXACTLY ( re the EU  )   ;)

Boris is too scared to allow another referendum on independence

More Scots voted to leave the EU than for the SNP. This is fact. That means that more Scottish people want to leave the EU than have an SNP Government who talks up their own agenda & claims to be the voice of Scotland.

Using your methodology, practically all of the UK wanted to leave the EU judging by the European election vote.....see you need to stop twisting voting standards to suit your agenda. You canít have it both ways!

Iíll accept that Scotland wants to remain if you admit that the vast majority of people in the UK want Brexit? Weíre using the same standards to make a point yes?

Unfairly or not, Sturgeon & the SNP are plummeting in the approval ratings up here. Local news & social media backs that up unless you use the polls who targeted 1056 nationalists to declare otherwise.

I know more about my own country than you ever will Iím afraid.

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3206 on: October 17, 2020, 12:10:03 AM »
More Scots voted to leave the EU than for the SNP. This is fact. That means that more Scottish people want to leave the EU than have an SNP Government who talks up their own agenda & claims to be the voice of Scotland.


Rosco, I provided you with arithmetic 101 above...  over 54% of Scots voted for REMAIN parties at the last election ...  The referendum of 2016, clearly showed a REMAIN preference.

 
Using your methodology, practically all of the UK wanted to leave the EU judging by the European election vote.....see you need to stop twisting voting standards to suit your agenda. You canít have it both ways!

))) Using my 'methodology' will you concede that there is NO WAY you can argue Scotland favoured leaving ?

I understand that the Welsh and English voted leave in 2016 and you might concede the Welsh seem to have changed their minds - reading their assembly's pleas....?

Iíll accept that Scotland wants to remain if you admit that the vast majority of people in the UK want Brexit? Weíre using the same standards to make a point yes?

I can't as they didn't .. my 'methodology' clearly showed that the Tories, proportionally, do not have the majority they won in seats ..but I concede that as the regulations stand, now, they 'won' ..

Unfairly or not, Sturgeon & the SNP are plummeting in the approval ratings up here. Local news & social media backs that up unless you use the polls who targeted 1056 nationalists to declare otherwise.

I am not disagreeing with you... The SNP are left of centre and have f'up on education and running the NHS pre COVID.

I know more about my own country than you ever will Iím afraid.

As we saw from my numbers, you clearly don't and you have just introduced the current feelings towards the SNP and I'm not disagreeing with you.


I am a Unionist.. and, first and foremost and would prefer the UK to remain united. Boris is managing to ostracise long standing relationships with Unionist parties with his promises of 'oven ready deals' ( re 'Brexit') and then threatening to back down on deals that he used to say " elect me, I'm a problem solver"...

His govt's. handling of the COVID situation and his Tory version of the 'prince of darkness'  ( ask your Dad ) has ensured a VERY low public respect for regulations to combat spread of the virus.

But I digress..


Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3207 on: October 17, 2020, 01:07:18 AM »
You proved nothing Moby other than your constant sleight of hand and inability to consider anything other than your own opinion.

Ive never once argued that Scotland favoured leave. Go back re-read what I wrote because this habit you have for changing every discussion and switching the focus leads to grown men arguing about who said what rather than the actual debate. Please stay on topic. I said more Scots voted for Brexit than the SNP. Thatís very different to what you think it means.

Criticising voting systems that provide results you donít like, such as the US Elections & our European elections but championing the results giving the SNP a majority government whilst ignoring the fact only one 5th of Scots voted for them, reeks of hypocrisy.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 04:09:27 AM by AnonMod »

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3208 on: October 17, 2020, 01:55:39 AM »

Rosco, I provided you with arithmetic 101 above...  over 54% of Scots voted for REMAIN parties at the last election ...  The referendum of 2016, clearly showed a REMAIN preference.

 
))) Using my 'methodology' will you concede that there is NO WAY you can argue Scotland favoured leaving ?

I understand that the Welsh and English voted leave in 2016 and you might concede the Welsh seem to have changed their minds - reading their assembly's pleas....?

I can't as they didn't .. my 'methodology' clearly showed that the Tories, proportionally, do not have the majority they won in seats ..but I concede that as the regulations stand, now, they 'won' ..

I am not disagreeing with you... The SNP are left of centre and have f'up on education and running the NHS pre COVID.

As we saw from my numbers, you clearly don't and you have just introduced the current feelings towards the SNP and I'm not disagreeing with you.


I am a Unionist.. and, first and foremost and would prefer the UK to remain united. Boris is managing to ostracise long standing relationships with Unionist parties with his promises of 'oven ready deals' ( re 'Brexit') and then threatening to back down on deals that he used to say " elect me, I'm a problem solver"...

His govt's. handling of the COVID situation and his Tory version of the 'prince of darkness'  ( ask your Dad ) has ensured a VERY low public respect for regulations to combat spread of the virus.

But I digress..

Mobers, read my post up page, we're taking the fight to the EU, it's No Deal Brexit :D Hooray!!!

Just like in 1945 we're now embarked on a mission to free Europe, this time from the clutches of the EU and this time by economic warfare. One by one I think we can free West European nations from the EU as they chose the chance to free trade with us over being in the EU. Germany already looks concerned (car export market) while French farmers, fishermen, etc are likely to be hit hard.

To be honest this scenario is probably the best one, if we do better than the EU it will break their illusion that we need their Single Market and other countries will take note and follow. No longer will they be able to dominate and control the countries that joined in good faith Mobers :)
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3209 on: October 17, 2020, 04:22:06 AM »
Youíre bang on trench coat. The only people complaining about no deal, are those who simply want to continue whining & crying. After a no deal separation, talks will commence about building economic & social ties between the EU and the UK, without the UK being handcuffed to silly EU directives, laws & other unfair trade agreements.

Itís often easier to sort out a best deal with a blank canvas. They want our money, they want our industry, they want us not to compete with them and they want an outrageous divorce sum. Start from scratch and their tune will change but meanwhile letís crack on with new markets. Bumps in the road and all that as previously discussed but opportunity lies ahead.

The no deal whiners are the same people that demanded revotes, Brexit in name only & for our own negotiators to sit at the table without a no deal card to play. In fact the first lot of negotiators were members of this camp.

The good times just keep rolling for us, the majority!!  ;D

Online Rosco

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3210 on: October 17, 2020, 04:28:16 AM »
When you stand back and think about it, this is all about the EU playing nasty. No more, no less.

If they truly valued democracy, theyíd let us leave without all the silliness and be happy to trade fairly with a country who hasnít left Europe, just the United States of Europe.

None of this has to happen but thereís a reason the EU canít let the gravy train leave. If Latvia or Poland voted to leave, there would be no struggles because theyíre a euro sink hole.

They just canít afford for a net contributor to walk out and become a success.


Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3211 on: October 17, 2020, 01:04:48 PM »
You proved nothing Moby other than your constant sleight of hand and inability to consider anything other than your own opinion.

Good evening, Rosco

I missed ANY valid counter to your interesting arithmetic and I'll remind you that you  chose to miss out many factual points in our recent discourses 


Criticising voting systems that provide results you donít like, such as the US Elections & our European elections but championing the results giving the SNP a majority government whilst ignoring the fact only one 5th of Scots voted for them, reeks of hypocrisy.

Once again, I proved that the SNP and LDs polled over 54 percent in Dec 19

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3212 on: October 17, 2020, 03:49:15 PM »
The should be a tumble weed emoji. ^^

Online msmob

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3213 on: October 18, 2020, 10:25:30 AM »
Thought these fibs from 3/4 years ago might demonstrate the tosh the UK voted for...


Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3214 on: October 18, 2020, 10:35:49 AM »
 
Once again, I proved that the SNP and LDs polled over 54 percent in Dec 19

Mobe you can't combine the polling off two separate parties. They did not join together in an electoral pact even never mind an SNP-Lib Alliance. The Lib Dem leader even lost her seat to the SNP candidate, remember???

Unless they join in an Alliance, parties in General Elections fight on their own manifesto. Yes the Election was largely about Brexit but there were other issues also. The vote can't be counted as between Brexit parties and non Brexit parties. Rarely if ever has any single party polled 50 percent or more in a General Election.

The popular vote regarding the Brexit question happened with the Brexit Referendum you're just going to have to accept that, unfortunately for you Remainers you lost.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3215 on: October 18, 2020, 10:42:45 AM »
Thought these fibs from 3/4 years ago might demonstrate the tosh the UK voted for...

Mobe, it all depends upon what you regard as quick and easy. Once Boris came in it was relatively quick and easy. Unfortunately Theresa May got the PM job and her heart was never really in it like Boris. Added to the her General Election performance made the going a lot more difficult.

I think the above politicians made their statements with the best of intentions.

Alone they are not really sufficient to base not Leaving the EU even if you think they are fibs. I mean not quite meeting them is hardly a big deal is it.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3216 on: October 18, 2020, 11:00:15 AM »
Mobe you can't combine the polling off two separate parties. 

'Indeed', why not ?  Were not their policies to REMAIN ?

THAT might explain things ...? ;)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3217 on: October 18, 2020, 11:02:21 AM »
Mobe, it all depends upon what you regard as quick and easy. Once Boris came in it was relatively quick and easy.

For the benefit of those still interested..

'Oct 15th' was the latest deadline Boris set for a deal ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-boris-johnson-deal-deadline_uk_5f870360c5b6f53fff078ae6


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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3218 on: October 18, 2020, 11:34:09 AM »
'Indeed', why not ?  Were not their policies to REMAIN ?

THAT might explain things ...? ;)

AND other policies as well. So the General Election was not a rerun off the Brexit Referendum. Everyone is aware of the rules played by in a General Election and accept them and take part in those terms. We had a referendum for PR voting for General Elections and it was soundly defeated, what way did you vote in the PR Referendum Mobers? Something tells me you voted against using PR for General Elections.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3219 on: October 18, 2020, 11:42:42 AM »
For the benefit of those still interested..

'Oct 15th' was the latest deadline Boris set for a deal ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-boris-johnson-deal-deadline_uk_5f870360c5b6f53fff078ae6

Now Mobe, let me educate you on the fine art of Negotiation. The main big rule of negotiation for you to take on board today is, 'always be prepared to walk away'. That goes for any negotiation, you want to know why? Because if the other side believes you won't walk away they know there is no need to give away anything. Yep, the moment they believe that you will stay whatever is the moment they will decide to have it all their way. The rule following on from that of course is you have to, 'mean it'. I believe Boris does as it's not clear that a deal would be in our best interest.

So of course as far as any statement of reaching a deal is concerned it's not something that can be promised succinctly as it all depends on negotiation.

I must say in general I don't think most Leavers were that bothered about that aspect. It was really taking back control which we most wanted.

You know no amount of you arguing on here is going to change the fact that we are going Independent of the EU.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3220 on: October 18, 2020, 01:38:07 PM »
Now Mobe, let me educate you on the fine art of Negotiation.

)))

I think you should be addressing Boris.. HE told you that this would be 'easy' ...

He LIED and you believed him

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3221 on: October 18, 2020, 02:26:45 PM »
)))

I think you should be addressing Boris.. HE told you that this would be 'easy' ...

He LIED and you believed him

Honestly Moby I never cared whether it would be easy or not I voted Leave to get out of this accursed EU. What Boris said or whether I believed him or not never came into it for me. I was always going to vote Leave regardless of what Boris said. I voted Leave based on what the EU had done to this country over the last decade or so - basically overimmigration, open borders policy, unfairly penalising the UK financially, etc, etc. YOU think the Leave vote was led by politicians promises when in fact it was led by the people having enough of the damn EU. Half a country that voted doesn't just do so on the back of some politicians statements/promises, it's just too many people to 'dupe'.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3222 on: October 18, 2020, 02:30:12 PM »
Honestly Moby I never cared whether it would be easy or not I voted Leave to get out of this accursed EU.

I understand you voted leave and don't understand the consequences .. I refer to promises you believe(d) and Brexit isn't getting done, in the manner promised in either 2016 or 2019 ... 

I am well used to your being in denial from how to deal with dating to Brexit ;)


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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3223 on: October 18, 2020, 03:20:22 PM »
I understand you voted leave and don't understand the consequences .. I refer to promises you believe(d) and Brexit isn't getting done, in the manner promised in either 2016 or 2019 ... 

I am well used to your being in denial from how to deal with dating to Brexit ;)

I don't really care how Brexit gets done so long as it gets done Mobers. I understand that when you chop wood chips fly but I believe it is worth risking the potential downsides to get out off the EU to a better place. Once there we can work through all the issues but long term I am sure we are better off outside the EU. I don't believe in staying in the EU for fear of what may lay beyond that would be crass stupidity. It's a case of learning to look to grow Mobers. There is no opportunity to grow in the EU being told by the EU what to do all the time.

To my mind the EU is a project gone wrong. It needs to be reset and started again. It needs to let its member states be on top in control of it rather than the other way around. It needs to be more basic and simple in the way it operates, more of a free trade zone with a few fringe benefits and coming together on agreed shared common interests. That is what the people of Europe want, not an arrogant, overbearing organisation lording it over everyone barking out their 'Directives' that we must all follow.

I don't think it will get that though and it will inevitably collapse.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Re: Brexit good, bad or indifferent?
« Reply #3224 on: October 18, 2020, 10:53:16 PM »
Trench,

The EU isn't perfect, but it is the world's biggest trading block.... and it is on the UK's door step.

This is economics 101.



 

 

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