RW Women's jobs

[Son of Clyde]

Show me a cowboy who rides side saddle and I'll show you a gay ranchero.

Just trying to lighten things up. Lets get back to reality.

[Michelangelo]

And what percentage of Russian trained doctors do you believe are capable of passing the exams without the additional training they would get from American medical colleges?  My guess is it is a rather small percentage.  Now, combine that with a strong enough English ability to accomplish this, an even smaller percentage.

These skills would make such a person possess the ability to command a very successful career in Russia.  They would be in high demand in the lucrative private Western style medical centers.  A very big fish in a small pond.  Why would anyone chose to leave this to fight their way back to the top in the West?

Locating a place to do their residency would also be a great challenge.  The best residencies are usually awarded to the top, brightest stars graduating from the better medical colleges.  Lesser spots are given to those associated with the teaching hospitals.  Walking in with a passing grade on your exams and education from an unknown foreign college would probably get you a polite "Thank you, we will consider you" and not much more.

The rules as they are written on paper, and the rules of the street, usually are not the same...

Good post, ConnerVT.  I agree with you.  In fact, I've already posted my view that it is very difficult for a foreign doc to become a US doc. I even repeated that yesterday:

I agree, Andrew.  I also think it is difficult to make the move from foreign doc to US doc.  But I was simply posting about the requirements, and that repeating medical school is not required.

Please keep in mind that my posts here have consistently been in response to this quote by JB, which is factually incorrect:

An MD from the FSU will have to go through medical school from start to finish here again.

I was not addressing the issue of how difficult the journey might be.  I was simply citing AMA requirements for foreign physicians practicing in the US.  JB's quote is not in agreement with the AMA.

Having said that, and having said the transition would be very difficult, nonetheless, it is possible.  I don't believe in setting limits to human potential.

Just read the quote, from Michelangelo, at the bottom of this post.

[PeeWee]

Show me a cowboy who rides side saddle and I'll show you a gay ranchero.

Just trying to lighten things up. Lets get back to reality.

Oh, my God! Brokeback Mountain is the best western ever made! Better than John Wayne ever was. I hope they make a sequel to it.

Peewee

[catzenmouse]

Seems this valid topic is turning into a continuation of the ol *snip* thread (I added *snip*)

I move that a pruned version of this thread be moved to the FAQ section and the rest either trashed or converted to a 'Should RWD be PC' thread in NHB.

Anyone wanna second the motion?

Prune and trash or prune and scratch the itch till it bleeds in NHB?

I think a combination of the two would probably be best. Glean the meat out for a FAQ and send the rest to NHB throw in a few clubs, knives, and a mace or a sword and let the melee begin. As much as I don't want to get into the bickering I do enjoy watching a good fight now and then. Hasn't been much good to watch since Ali retired.

Ken

[PeeWee]

Good post, ConnerVT.  I agree with you.  In fact, I've already posted my view that it is very difficult for a foreign doc to become a US doc. I even repeated that yesterday:

Please keep in mind that my posts here have consistently been in response to this quote by JB, which is factually incorrect:

I was not addressing the issue of how difficult the journey might be.  I was simply citing AMA requirements for foreign physicians practicing in the US.  JB's quote is not in agreement with the AMA.

Having said that, and having said the transition would be very difficult, nonetheless, it is possible.  I don't believe in setting limits to human potential.

Just read the quote, from Michelangelo, at the bottom of this post.

Perhaps that is why some seem to believe that there are those of us who are some sort of cheer squad. It is the positive mental approach that we have about life. Those that set high goals and long reaches. It does tend to piss off the earthbound sorts. Underachievers and the likes.

Three types of people. Those make things happen. Those that watch things happen. Those that wonder what happened. Other than spectator sports I never much enjoyed watching something happen, and seldom do I wonder what just happened. Aim for the stars and if nothing else you will at least hit the moon.

Peewee

[KenC]

Oh...poor wittle jb. Gets picked on by the bully boys all of the time. sniff sniff.

Anyway. What this amounts to is nothing more than two points of view, as I see it. Optimist and pessimist. Some of these guys are obvisously either controlling of their wives, or girlfriends, or they are insecure about their manhood. It is evident in either their questions or their responses and advices. When I see something that suggests either then, because I am the eternal optimist, I will jump in with an optimistic spin on the topic. Every time, without fail.

"It's too hard." "You had better realize that these women cannot..." "It is all but impossible for them to...." "You can't..." "Do you think she is being faithful?"   and the negative reinforcements go on and on. Well, big news, for those of us how have a positive mental attitude and are in full control of our manhood and are very secure with feelings toward women we do beleive that all is possible for these ladies and we want to see them have every opportunity to be happy and if they wish it to have a career that makes them sing about their chosen careers instead of coming home every day bitching about their job.

Some one has to put a positive spin on some of this negative crap that some of you doom and gloom guys try to feed to the masses.

Peewee

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Peewee,
And some of us are actually married to RW, while others only dream to be.  I am all for having a different point of view and even for a good spirited debate.  Just don't come here and cry about insults thrown by others while you (Turbo) are guilty of the same.
KenC

[Bruno]

Seems this valid topic is turning into a continuation of the ol *snip* thread (I added *snip*)

I move that a pruned version of this thread be moved to the FAQ section and the rest either trashed or converted to a 'Should RWD be PC' thread in NHB.

Anyone wanna second the motion?

Prune and trash or prune and scratch the itch till it bleeds in NHB?

BC, i am for the Prune and trash... the first few page was with interesting data... now, the rest is only a children fight... this will become a 50 page topic with blood and knife... why move it in the NHB, it will only use place on the server of Dan for nothing...

NHB is good in case of topic where people have strong opposite meaning... who can be both valid... but insult and fight have no place on RWD.

[Vaughn]

PeeWee wrote:

Are you saying that because it is hard to do that they should be discouraged from trying?  <snip>.....that they should consider working at McDonalds instead? How demeening and how under estimating of us pompus Americans....

 PeeWee, I never said that, nor did I imply it. Don't for a second think you've got sole title to optimism. In fact, I don't see where anyone in this thread said "it cannot be done" - such a conclusion is ignorant. It takes a
very special candidate to pull it off - aside from education and ambition, there's the intangible level of resolve.

 Then, as posted earlier, there are many kinds of "doctors" in the FSU.
I was only trying to point out that a nurse from Moscow (who calls herself
a doctor), an orthopaedic surgeon from Perm, and a pediatrician from Kharkov - will likely all face different degrees of difficulty in attaining
licensure here in the USA.

  Also discussed earlier: a man searching specifically for a "doctor-fiance" with some grand financial agenda ought to have a head check - I agree with that suggestion wholeheartedly.

[PeeWee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Peewee,
And some of us are actually married to RW, while others only dream to be.  I am all for having a different point of view and even for a good spirited debate.  Just don't come here and cry about insults thrown by others while you (Turbo) are guilty of the same.
KenC

No one is crying, KC. And to be married to a RW is no more special than it is to be married to an AW...or an African woman...or your favorite horse for that matter. They are women plain and simple. Nothing special. Nothing new. There is no dream other than the one to have a partner where love and respect is mutually shared. You can have those things with a dog you know.

Now if you want to get to it go way back to the begining of the thread. First volley fired by jb calling everyone a homo. No one every really said anything to him as derogitory as that. One fellow appologized about the crack about his wife, which was mild I must admit. So first shot fired by the grand master, there was a mild retaliation, and appology administered. To day, the smaller man now in this espapade, that would be jb, has not appologized. As I see it he has called three highly respected forum members queers. To which none of of them has thought to stoop to his level.

I could have asked not only for  his appology but his banishment from the forum based solely on his inflmaitory, biased, and derogitory comments. Clearly comments that are against forum policy. But I did not. In the meantime we continute to have a lively and informative discussion spiced with a little bantering and saber rattling. You can puff up your chest and beat it like King Kong all you want, KC, but let's not over blown this.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

PeeWee wrote:
 PeeWee, I never said that, nor did I imply it. Don't for a second think you've got sole title to optimism. In fact, I don't see where anyone in this thread said "it cannot be done" - such a conclusion is ignorant. It takes a
very special candidate to pull it off - aside from education and ambition, there's the intangible level of resolve.

 Then, as posted earlier, there are many kinds of "doctors" in the FSU.
I was only trying to point out that a nurse from Moscow (who calls herself
a doctor), an orthopaedic surgeon from Perm, and a pediatrician from Kharkov - will likely all face different degrees of difficulty in attaining
licensure here in the USA.

  Also discussed earlier: a man searching specifically for a "doctor-fiance" with some grand financial agenda ought to have a head check - I agree with that suggestion wholeheartedly.

Vaughn, I asked you a question, hence the "?"  I did not say that you say that you said it or that you implied it. So rather than answer the question you become defensive and attack. I did not say...anything about sole title of anything. Again you assume and accuse.

Start over. Take a deep breath and resume the discussion. Begining with an answer to my question.

Peewee

[KenC]

No one is crying, KC. And to be married to a RW is no more special than it is to be married to an AW...or an African woman...or your favorite horse for that matter. They are women plain and simple. Nothing special. Nothing new. There is no dream other than the one to have a partner where love and respect is mutually shared. You can have those things with a dog you know.

Now if you want to get to it go way back to the begining of the thread. First volley fired by jb calling everyone a homo. No one every really said anything to him as derogitory as that. One fellow appologized about the crack about his wife, which was mild I must admit. So first shot fired by the grand master, there was a mild retaliation, and appology administered. To day, the smaller man now in this espapade, that would be jb, has not appologized. As I see it he has called three highly respected forum members queers. To which none of of them has thought to stoop to his level.

I could have asked not only for  his appology but his banishment from the forum based solely on his inflmaitory, biased, and derogitory comments. Clearly comments that are against forum policy. But I did not. In the meantime we continute to have a lively and informative discussion spiced with a little bantering and saber rattling. You can puff up your chest and beat it like King Kong all you want, KC, but let's not over blown this.

Peewee

Peewee,
Um, Turbo's post was a veiled attempt to chastise jb's behavior while all through it he insinuated that jb was low class and worse.  If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. 

When you say:
And to be married to a RW is no more special than it is to be married to an AW...or an African woman...or your favorite horse for that matter.
I don't really understand because this is a forum for sorting out unique situations regarding specifically RW.  The original topic of this thread could never be applied to an AW, an African woman or a horse.  You comment makes no sense at all.

To attack anyone's wife or fiancee should be off limits, period.

Maybe jb's "homo" comment was a joke ala Turbo.  To consider yourself and your compadres "highly respected" members here is certainly a stretch in some peoples minds.
KenC

[ConnerVT]

Good post, ConnerVT.  I agree with you.  In fact, I've already posted my view that it is very difficult for a foreign doc to become a US doc. I even repeated that yesterday:

Please keep in mind that my posts here have consistently been in response to this quote by JB, which is factually incorrect:

An MD from the FSU will have to go through medical school from start to finish here again.

I was not addressing the issue of how difficult the journey might be.  I was simply citing AMA requirements for foreign physicians practicing in the US.  JB's quote is not in agreement with the AMA.

If you are going to argue facts, then you are the one who needs to get them straight.  jb did not say it was an AMA requirement.  You are the one whom added that "fact" to the story.

If you agree that a 'doctor' from the FSU is going to require some study (unless they are already well versed in Western medicine and medical terminology and methods, which yourself agreed is a very small number), how does one go about it?  Most medical programs are filled to capacity (many with a waiting list).  One does not just sign up for an intermediate class or two as an elective.  A previous degree may get you some transferable elective credits, and cover a prerequisite class or two, but few will just walk in to a classroom to brush up their skills and knowledge.

jb's statement about "start to finish" is likely what most will be faced with.

Here is another "factually correct" statement of my own:  Any Russian can apply for and receive a tourist visa, regardless of age, financial or family background.

How many who read this forum will say that's correct, and suggest that the person asking the question quickly send some money by Western Union to a newly found Internet friend so they can come visit?

We must remember that people read (and sometimes follow) the advice that is written in these forums.  To argue semantics of whether something is "factually correct" does little good, and potentially much harm.

(edit: formatting and inverted tense)

[Vaughn]

I did not say that you say that you said it or that you implied it. So rather than answer the question you become defensive and attack.

Honestly, it was not an attack. Maybe my words "sole title" were
ill-chosen.

Again you assume and accuse.

PeeWee, maybe we BOTH need to take a deep breathe?

Start over. Take a deep breath and resume the discussion. Begining with an answer to my question.

which was:

Are you saying that because it is hard to do that they should be discouraged from trying?

My short-form answer: NO. What I would discourage, though, is the dependence on a successful medical transition plan as the very foundation of a future marriage.

[Michelangelo]

If you are going to argue facts, then you are the one who needs to get them straight.  jb did not say it was an AMA requirement.  You are the one whom added that "fact" to the story.

What?  I don't follow your arguement, Conner.

I did not say JB said anything about any AMA requirement.  I will repost what I said here:

I was not addressing the issue of how difficult the journey might be.  I was simply citing AMA requirements for foreign physicians practicing in the US.  JB's quote is not in agreement with the AMA.

As you can  see above, what I said was the OPPOSITE of what you just posted.

And how many times do I have to say that I think it's very difficult for a foreign doc to practice medicine in the US?  I started that last post saying that and even reposting my last quote....the one that said it's difficult.

One more time-- JB said "An MD from the FSU will have to go through medical school from start to finish here again."

That is not accurate and it's all I have been questioning, or saying.  I agree that it's difficult for a foreign doc to come to the US and practice here.  But they DO NOT have to go to medical school again. And that's a fact.

[BC]

Someone *somewhere* is lounging with a beer thinking 'this is better than prime-time', getting one heck of a laugh out of the slapstick going on here.

I guess boys will be boys.

[catzenmouse]

Since I'm at work now I don't have the beer but the rest applies...

Funny also that there is really a general agreement from all parties that this is not an easy path to take and is not for everyone.

[ConnerVT]

That is not accurate and it's all I have been questioning, or saying.  I agree that it's difficult for a foreign doc to come to the US and practice here.  But they DO NOT have to go to medical school again. And that's a fact.

Yes, a fact.  But unless they are in that limited group whom can step off an airplane, and PASS the exam, and also have an open residency slot waiting for them, just how will they gain the necessary knowledge and credentials?  Home study books from Amazon.com?  Internet web sites?

Yes, your fact is correct.  But your premise is not.

[Michelangelo]

Yes, a fact.  But unless they are in that limited group whom can step off an airplane, and PASS the exam, and also have an open residency slot waiting for them, just how will they gain the necessary knowledge and credentials?  Home study books from Amazon.com?  Internet web sites?

Yes, your fact is correct.  But your premise is not.

Geezzz.....Conner...my premise is the same as yours....  Let me say it with your mostly your words and then you will see we are saying the same thing. 

Only a limited group of FSU doctors can step off the plane, possess sufficeint English language skills, successfully complete residency and pass the medical certification exam.

On that part we agree--can't you see?

My purpose for posting here was to correct the inaccurate post that said they have to go through medical school again.  They don't.

[jb]

Well, you boys probably also believe in the tooth fairy.

If you really believe the AMA, who's members sits on the boards of the most prominant med schools in the country are not protecting the livelihood of American Md's, if you really think a foreign MD much over a certain age can pass the USMILE exams with a score of less than 95 first time up at bat, and can still get accepted into an internship and residency program at a decent teaching hospital to get a license to practice medicine here, if you really believe the Old Boy Network isn't firmly in control of who makes money in medicine and who doesn't, then I suggest you go ahead and marry your hot young Russian Doctor and see how long it takes before she can assume the money maker role in your household.

You guys are amazin'.

[ConnerVT]

Aw, come on Mr Doom and Gloom.  Can't you see we're all optimists here?   

[catzenmouse]

jb's alter ego.... Dr. Doom!

[Michelangelo]

Well, you boys probably also believe in the tooth fairy.

If you really believe the AMA, who's members sits on the boards of the most prominant med schools in the country are not protecting the livelihood of American Md's, if you really think a foreign MD much over a certain age can pass the USMILE exams with a score of less than 95 first time up at bat, and can still get accepted into an internship and residency program at a decent teaching hospital to get a license to practice medicine here, if you really believe the Old Boy Network isn't firmly in control of who makes money in medicine and who doesn't, then I suggest you go ahead and marry your hot young Russian Doctor and see how long it takes before she can assume the money maker role in your household.

You guys are amazin'.

You're changing or shifting the emphasis of your argument, huh, JB?

What about your quote

An MD from the FSU will have to go through medical school from start to finish here again.

That part from post 8 was and is incorrect.  No, you don't have to do medical school all over again in the US.

The other parts of that post were correct, and very few would argue with it.

That's all I have tried to point out.

I was not even interested in correcting that point until you, in just the 6th post of this thread, attacked me, calling me a homo.  I wasn't even reading this strand and had not posted.

Later, you slammed Lindochka for pointing out AMA regulations. 

Only then did I become part of this thread.  No, not to insult you.  But to simply point out that Lindochka was correct.

In closing,  like you and most everyone else here, I think the percentage of chance of an FSU doctor making the leap to practice in the US is very slim.  But if they come, they will not have to go to medical school.  They will just have to meet the requirements for their license, which Lindochka clearly articulated earlier.

[jb]

But if they come, they will not have to go to medical school.  They will just have to meet the requirements for their license, which Lindochka clearly articulated earlier.

If they are not going to med schools, then where would you think they are going to acquire the skills to pass the USMILE exam?  Home study?  Give me a break....

I suppose it's possible, presuming perfect English skills, but then we are also talking about the job specific medical trade vocabulary, which isn't usually a part of ordinary conversational English, so the TOEFL test isn't going to get anyone even close to acceptance to the internship and residency.  Yeah, these people are going to spend time in med school learning the American way of "Doctor Speak".

Among other things.

[KenC]

Michelangelo,
There is a huge difference from what is by the letter of the law correct and what is common practice.  Conner said it best when he posted:
"jb's statement about "start to finish" is likely what most will be faced with.

Here is another "factually correct" statement of my own:  Any Russian can apply for and receive a tourist visa, regardless of age, financial or family background.

How many who read this forum will say that's correct, and suggest that the person asking the question quickly send some money by Western Union to a newly found Internet friend so they can come visit?

We must remember that people read (and sometimes follow) the advice that is written in these forums.  To argue semantics of whether something is "factually correct" does little good, and potentially much harm".
A little common sense on your part wouldn't hurt, either.
KenC

[Michelangelo]

KenC, I thought Conner's post was excellent and told him so.

In a practical sense, it's very difficult for a foreign doctor to come to the US (but the ranks are growing).

Commen sense does tell us that the profession of "doctor" is a difficult transition from the FSU to the US.

My objection has always been to the misstatement of requirements.  Requirements are black and white.   How one meets those requirements seems to be the detour we are now taking, and I'm on board with most by saying it's very difficult to do.

I think that if this goes to a FAQ section, most of what JB said could be left as is.  But I'd hate to see incorrect information posted there. Just edit out the line that says they must go to medical school again.