Why Ukraine ?

[msmobyone]

You are taking issue AND at the same time changing what was written.  This is intellectual dishonesty.

I concede that you said '
And vast majority of Russian citizens do support this invasion.'

I confused the above with your post whereby you had cut off socialising with Russians - whereby
 ''They, each and every one, fully support all aggression that Russia has taken against Ukraine. ''

You stated several not all... I only remembered the each and every one of them .. my bad

Plus support for Putin and his actions can be known by the comments that we and others have heard from Russians here in the USA and from Russians that families of our spouses know back in the FSU.

Now you and others claim you don't hear much of this from your Russian acquaintances.

There can be several reasons for this.
1) Your acquaintances just don't want  to tell you their true feelings for any number of reasons just to avoid controversy and damage friendships.
2) You have not 'pushed' them enough to reveal their true feelings.
3) I get their true feelings because I do 'push' them.  Ochka tells me that I am actually a stronger supporter of Ukraine than she is.  This is not really true, but what she means is that she will avoid bringing it up, while I do not avoid it.

ML, I spend a lot of my time in Russia - meeting folk from Crimea and Donbass - I see cars with 'DNR' /'LPR' doctored Ukrainian number plates [ licence tags?] on cars.

I'm careful not to initiate conversations on such matters - as I'm a guest - and Russians regard those of differing opinions as being blinded by 'western propaganda'..

But I would try not cut off meeting such people ... I come from a land where ethnic killings went on and some of my friends believed my people were occupiers..mixing with such people helped me understand Irish Nationalist grievances ..rights and wrongs could be attributed to both sides..once bullets and shells are fired - opinions become completely polarised based on tragedies experienced.

Put simply, Russians THINK they are being humanitarian in Ukraine and righting wrongs from 1954 (Crimea) and 1991 - Russia was 'weak' and agreed to terms it would never do so now. This is my simplistic viewpoint - not my stance !

I dated a Latvian of eth Russian origin. In Russian and Soviet times -it was common to Russify places under Moscow control - planting Russians - to nullify nationalists

So, when the USSR broke up these people found themselves in  'hostile' environment. The lady's Dad had been placed in Latvia as a 'punishment' in the 70's ..they made their home there and were ostracised unless they took a Latvian language test and signed a document denouncing Soviet occupation ..These people STRONGLY look to Russia for support

In Latvia and Estonia they are 'aliens'they pay taxes, but cannot vote and are not European Citizens. For these reason - they support Russia's actions...

You cannot be friends with someone who supports his government killing the citizens of your own country.

Many people on this discussion site maintain friendships with and even are married to those who supports Russia in its killing of Ukrainian citizens.   It is inconceivable to me.

ML

This is not a glib riposte..   I've been where you are - but having met IRA members - by chance - during the troubles in Ireland...  and been in a circle of people who wished the British PM dead - I was in a Dublin bar the day the IRA missed mortor bombing the cabinet offices in Whitehall  - the IRA were largely funded from Americans with Irish roots ...for 'the cause'.. 

I believe most of the Russian nationals who volunteered to serve in Donbass think they are saving their brothers from 'aggression from Ukraine' !

Indeed it's a difficult situation

[northkape]

Here in USA, spouse and I have had opposite experience you claim regarding Russians.

We have had to cut off socializing with several Russians.

They, each and every one, fully support all aggression that Russia has taken against Ukraine.  If Ukraine doesn't want its soldiers to be killed, they should just remove them from the East.  They laugh that Russia was able to take over Crimea without Ukraine firing a single shot.

Many have even repeated the nonsense that Putin spouted that Ukraine doesn't even deserve to be  a country.  Russia should take everything up  to Kyiv and let Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, et al take over the rest.

The Ukrainians are very proud, and many that I have met had no desire to leave. They only left because of the man they loved.

Agree with ML. We have cut ties with several Russian friends here in the US because they fly the separatist flag and say the US and Ukraine are the culprits and killers. They support the invasion to "protect" the ethnic Russians.These same women are trying to secure a green card here. It disgusts me tbh.

It is not all Russians. We have several very close Russian friends who are more enlightened and realize what is really happening. They do not criticize Russia, but remain quiet on the matter.  You can look on vk and see that many do support it.

I usually don't discuss anything political here, but I agree with ML and Alex.
Same happened to me and my Ukrainian x-wife Lena,,, not only among "friends",,, but also deep splits inside her family among some members living in Russia.
My present Ukraine wife, Tanya, have similar stories, although not inside her family (they avoid discussing it), even though many of them are Russians living in Russia.
I also saw Russian friendly Ukrainians, especially from the east or Crimea, cutting all social contact and deleting Lena and Tanya as friends on FB...
More shocking to me, was the display of a cold hatred, that I can hardly understand,,, against "everything Ukraine", from several Russians.
Showing a feeling of superiority, and despising the Ukrainian people in general, as some sort of "low life beings" from an alien planet.
As we have seen traces of here also, several times, from men married with women from Russia or Crimea.

I was born in the north, not far from the Russian border, and my parents / grand parents were very Russian friendly, as they were fighting the same German Nazi during the war. It was one of the reasons I first looked into Russia when searching abroad for a wife almost twenty years ago in my story here...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15509.0

In my opinion, anyone searching today should look to Ukraine......
Russia under Putin is distancing themselves more and more, from all of the western world, day by day.
Almost all reasonably intelligent people I know, are tired of his endless lies,,,
about the illegal annexing of Crimea, the aggression and attack on Ukraine,,,, 
the glorifying of Russia / downgrading of the west, the rampant corruption and robbing of his own country, their cheating in sports, on and on,,,
Then seeing the amount of people supporting him in Russia, makes a lot of us feel sorry and shaking our heads in disbelief.

Whatever opinions are dominating here,,
After 16 years of traveling all across Ukraine, I see a friendly Ukraine opening their arms towards the west, looking to embrace and adopt our ways of living and thinking.
Russia with Putin however, is doing exactly the opposite,,
closing the door to the west, and successfully brainwashing the Russian people about an imaginary "Superior Russian Empire" to emerge in the not to distant future.....

[msmobyone]

Let's try AGAIN )

 

I came across a poll that stated that more than 20 percent of Russians wished to leave the Rodina ..I read it in Apr 16 - can't remember the source and plenty of Russians concurred.

I know plenty of Russian ladies that think Putin is a 'good President' but would still live abroad...

Anyone excluding Russian women based on the 'away games' of their leadership is just plain daft ...

[ML]

Anyone excluding Russian women based on the 'away games' of their leadership is just plain daft ...

Now after reading North's description of the 'mind-set' and thinking of Russian people . . . I can't imagine any guy who would want to associate with a RW, let alone live with her.  A thoroughly disgusting people.

[ML]

I know plenty of Russian ladies that think Putin is a 'good President' . . .

Anyone excluding Russian women based on the 'away games' of their leadership is just plain daft ...

You said it yourself right above.

The logic is to exclude them because THEY, BASED ON THEIR SUPPORT OF PUTIN, DO SUPPORT THE AWAY GAMES IN UKRAINE.

This is what I and others have been trying to get across, and now you admit the truth.

[Gator]

Now after reading North's description of the 'mind-set' and thinking of Russian people . . . I can't imagine any guy who would want to associate with a RW, let alone live with her.  A thoroughly disgusting people.

With such sweeping statements it is difficult to take you seriously.

[LAman]

Now after reading North's description of the 'mind-set' and thinking of Russian people . . . I can't imagine any guy who would want to associate with a RW, let alone live with her. A thoroughly disgusting people.

That's pretty insensitive ML. We just had a RW named Anzeta that recently joined this Forum, maybe she reads that and finds out what kind of people are on this Forum. There are also members here married or in relationship with RW.  Maybe you should take a chill pill.

[ML]

That's pretty insensitive ML. We just had a RW named Anzeta that recently joined this Forum, maybe she reads that and finds out what kind of people are on this Forum. There are also members here married or in relationship with RW.  Maybe you should take a chill pill.

And I find it pretty insensitive of others here after I told about my spouse's relative being shot by Russian terrorists and her family knowing families whose children were killed by Russian terrorists.

What sort of pill do you suggest for those people?

[Belvis]

Pretty funny to see here typical Russian-Ukrainian talk in social networks. ML plays Ukrainian and Gator&LAman are Russians.
Then you can understand easier this conflict between Russians and nationalistic Ukrainians.

[Boethius]

I find it interesting you didn't preface your description of Russians as "nationalistic", Belvis.  That same nationalism exists in Russia, and there, it is even more jingoistic.

That being said, I would hazard a guess that most of those Ukrainians speak Russian in their daily lives, and taught their children Russian, not Ukrainian.

My better half views both sides with equal disdain.  He refused to speak either Russian or Ukrainian to our children, saying that root of our family is dead, though I spoke Ukrainian to them.

[Gator]

Pretty funny to see here typical Russian-Ukrainian talk in social networks. ML plays Ukrainian and Gator&LAman are Russians.
Then you can understand easier this conflict between Russians and nationalistic Ukrainians.

Let's get this straight.  I have a low regard for your Russian government.   The world would be a better place if Putin retired.  But he can not, knowing that the next man would likely imprison him and strip him of his wealth.  I just hope his aspirations are not much more than what we see. 

Having said that, I really like ordinary Russian people.  I have enjoyed many social gatherings with Russian women, Russian men, and Russian families.  Everyone treated me graciously.         

I have met children of RW and their mamas and papas.  All were neat and tidy, their homes especially so.  All treated me with respect and were nice to me.   All are good people.  Many gave me gifts.  It could have been a modest antique, a music CD, locally crafted art, etc. all to be appreciated for the gesture of giving.  . 

About 15 women friends of my wife have visited us from her city in Russia.  They are proper and polite people, making a point to be sure their presence did not bother me. How could it because I laughed, I ate good food, I had plenty of alcohol,....and I disappeared a lot to watch sports on TV. 

I have many fond memories of special days and evenings.   Thousands of examples.   One man took me to a historic banya in Moscow where we spent several enjoyable hours together naked, hardly speaking a word.  I even forgave him for dumping a barrel of ice water on me.  Vodka will do that. 

I recall one man playing lively music on a piano while the women kicked their legs up in the air.  A celebration at a Moscow restaurant in 1986 could be made into a film.  A docent gave me a private, personal tour of the Hermitage.

Russians seem to enjoy telling stories, a dying art in America.  Some may have been bullshit, or maybe it was the truth.  After listening to one scientist tell his long story of his research,   it is clear he will win the next Nobel Prize for Medicine, having refined a premortal concoction that cures different diseases regardless of mechanism.

This is an important point.  None of the hundred or so Russians I have conversed with have ever pushed the subject of politics.  The babushka stranger sitting on the bench may utter something nasty, but that does not count.  The Russian people are polite enough not to intrude.  I prefer that.   

The Russians may very well be judgmental behind your back, but not to your face.  In contrast, Americans will tend to stick their noses into uninvited places. 

To summarize, Russia people GOOD, Russian government BAD.  I have heard the same spoken about my America.   

I hope I have not offended you, and I do respect and appreciate your participation at RWD.  Yet the context of this discussion compels me to express my feelings about Russian politics.

[2tallbill]

MOSCOW – Backers of Russian President Vladimir Putin like to brag that
he has a sky-high approval rating. But what does that look like in real life?

That’s what I wanted to find out when I spent a recent weekend afternoon
shadowing a Russian opinion pollster. Polls show that Russians
overwhelmingly support Putin, but that they’re far more negative about the
politicians and bureaucrats underneath him. Five hours spent knocking on
doors in a working-class apartment complex on the outskirts of Moscow bore this out. It was still fascinating to see the dissonance play out in real life.

I’m often asked whether Putin’s support is real. My strong impression is that it is, but that when people say they support Putin, they don’t mean the same thing as what an American might mean when she says she supports President Obama. More than 16 years into Putin’s rule, many Russians see him as having transcended politics, not someone who can be voted in or out of office. So when you ask someone whether they approve of Putin, that’s like asking them whether they approve of Russia. Who’s going to say no?

There is a lot more read all about it here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/03/06/just-because-russians-like-putin-doesnt-mean-theyre-happy-about-the-economy/

[2tallbill]

MOSCOW – Backers of Russian President Vladimir Putin like to brag that
he has a sky-high approval rating. But what does that look like in real life?

That’s what I wanted to find out when I spent a recent weekend afternoon
shadowing a Russian opinion pollster. Polls show that Russians
overwhelmingly support Putin, but that they’re far more negative about the
politicians and bureaucrats underneath him. Five hours spent knocking on
doors in a working-class apartment complex on the outskirts of Moscow
bore this out. It was still fascinating to see the dissonance play out in
real life.

I’m often asked whether Putin’s support is real. My strong impression is
that it is, but that when people say they support Putin, they don’t mean
the same thing as what an American might mean when she says she
supports President Obama. More than 16 years into Putin’s rule, many
 
Russians see him as having transcended politics, not someone who can
be voted in or out of office. So when you ask someone whether they
approve of Putin, that’s like asking them whether they approve of
Russia. Who’s going to say no?

There is a lot more read all about it here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/03/06/just-because-russians-like-putin-doesnt-mean-theyre-happy-about-the-economy/

[alex330]

Showing a feeling of superiority, and despising the Ukrainian people in general, as some sort of "low life beings" from an alien planet.

Agreed, I see this as well. You only have to look on this very forum to see the disgust some Russian members have with Ukrainians.

But agree with Gator, some of our closest and most genuine friends are Russian. Like in any country, you gotta sort the trash from the good people.

[mhr7]

Polls show that Russians
overwhelmingly support Putin, but that they’re far more negative about the
politicians and bureaucrats underneath him. Five hours spent knocking on
doors in a working-class apartment complex on the outskirts of Moscow
bore this out. It was still fascinating to see the dissonance play out in
real life.

I’m often asked whether Putin’s support is real. My strong impression is
that it is, but that when people say they support Putin, they don’t mean
the same thing as what an American might mean when she says she
supports President Obama. More than 16 years into Putin’s rule, many
 
Russians see him as having transcended politics, not someone who can
be voted in or out of office. So when you ask someone whether they
approve of Putin, that’s like asking them whether they approve of
Russia. Who’s going to say no?

There is a lot more read all about it here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/03/06/just-because-russians-like-putin-doesnt-mean-theyre-happy-about-the-economy/

BINGO!!

[Boethius]

All irrelevant to Ukraine.  Most Russians have always had a superiority attitude vis a vis Ukrainians. 

Most Russians do support the illegal annexation of Crimea, and the actions, including invasion, of Donbas.  Whether they approve of Putin or not, or the reasons why, doesn't change those facts.

[mhr7]

Now after reading North's description of the 'mind-set' and thinking of Russian people . . . I can't imagine any guy who would want to associate with a RW, let alone live with her.  A thoroughly disgusting people.

Lived here for 2 years, been treated with nothing but kindness. Horrible, horrible people.

[Dillinshaw]

I think Russian women wouldn't miss a lot if idiots from RWD don't want to visit Russia.

Your hatred of Americans and Ukrainians is quite palpable. I see it in nearly every one of your posts.

[2tallbill]

Why did I marry a Russian woman vs a Ukrainian or different one?

Because there was a tall green eyed girl who lived in Russia and I
went to meet her. Things didn't work out with her but I found Angel
Eyes on a social networking site and I was a goner. The single girls
gave a wail to their loss and the Fathers of daughters in North Dakota
gave a sigh of relief because I was smitten and the daughters could
once again walk the streets after dark without fear of being seduced.

My theory
If you are a visit one type of guy go wherever the girl is. If she's on the
Mimas the third moon of Saturn l say get tickets to Mimas and learn a
few words of Mimasian.

If you are a visit many type of guy then pick a decent sized city and write
a hundred girls asking them for tea.

There is very little difference between a Russian girl vs a Ukrainian one.
Russians can (but not always) be a little more nationalistic, but they are
remarkably similar.

My advice is to have a broad net and sift through and find the best girl for
you and never make compromises about character.

[Belvis]

I find it interesting you didn't preface your description of Russians as "nationalistic", Belvis.  That same nationalism exists in Russia, and there, it is even more jingoistic.

Because Russians are not nationalistic, they are imperialistic-minded. Ukrainian nationalism is a kind of shield against outside world, Russian world to be precise. Yes, there is also Russian nationalism, but in marginal forms and under press of the state.

Let's get this straight.  I have a low regard for your Russian government.   The world would be a better place if Putin retired.

The world would be better for you as an US citizen but worse for us. Alas, the world can not be perfect for everybody. But beware the one who will come after Putin, in 8 years. Though you like Putin, you hate Putin, it does not matter. You're a bad guy anyway according to ML's classification of men.

[JayH]

I usually don't discuss anything political here, but I agree with ML and Alex.
Same happened to me and my Ukrainian x-wife Lena,,, not only among "friends",,, but also deep splits inside her family among some members living in Russia.
My present Ukraine wife, Tanya, have similar stories, although not inside her family (they avoid discussing it), even though many of them are Russians living in Russia.
I also saw Russian friendly Ukrainians, especially from the east or Crimea, cutting all social contact and deleting Lena and Tanya as friends on FB...
More shocking to me, was the display of a cold hatred, that I can hardly understand,,, against "everything Ukraine", from several Russians.
Showing a feeling of superiority, and despising the Ukrainian people in general, as some sort of "low life beings" from an alien planet.
As we have seen traces of here also, several times, from men married with women from Russia or Crimea.

I was born in the north, not far from the Russian border, and my parents / grand parents were very Russian friendly, as they were fighting the same German Nazi during the war. It was one of the reasons I first looked into Russia when searching abroad for a wife almost twenty years ago in my story here...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15509.0

In my opinion, anyone searching today should look to Ukraine......
Russia under Putin is distancing themselves more and more, from all of the western world, day by day.
Almost all reasonably intelligent people I know, are tired of his endless lies,,,
about the illegal annexing of Crimea, the aggression and attack on Ukraine,,,, 
the glorifying of Russia / downgrading of the west, the rampant corruption and robbing of his own country, their cheating in sports, on and on,,,
Then seeing the amount of people supporting him in Russia, makes a lot of us feel sorry and shaking our heads in disbelief.

Whatever opinions are dominating here,,
After 16 years of traveling all across Ukraine, I see a friendly Ukraine opening their arms towards the west, looking to embrace and adopt our ways of living and thinking.
Russia with Putin however, is doing exactly the opposite,,
closing the door to the west, and successfully brainwashing the Russian people about an imaginary "Superior Russian Empire" to emerge in the not to distant future.....

Thankyou NK-- a great summary.
I can add my first hand experiences that mirror what is written above-- and in particular the conclusion highlighted.
Families and individuals on different sides of the border who considered themselves close have parted ways permanently over what has happened and what is happening.
Over the last nearly 3 years I have written of the changes happening in Ukraine and how so many( many of you on this forum) have not kept pace nor understood the implications of those changes -- and even in this thread the evidence of that condescending attitude is clear.( eg  see Belvis,WhyNotMe comments+ those who are just plain oblivious).
  Those comments are generalised observations.

  What I see in so many who write here who ought to know better is a lack of understanding and empathy for Ukraine generally.Here is a people( a nation) in a desperate battle for self identity-- with real Ukrainians who are sons,husbands,fathers,brothers ,relatives & friends being killed , maimed , injured,millions caught up in a human tragedy caused  by RUSSIANS as a result of RUSSIAN craziness .
 I find it laughable( not) that some seek to paint those  of us who do see Russia for what it is as anti-Russian.Are you so thick that you can't see the difference between Putin and his cronies and the Russian people generally? I have said repeatedly that ordinary Russians are victims to--but until they have the guts to stand up and be counted( as Ukrainians have done and are doing) against the corrupt government and maintain attitudes now prevalent in Russia they will continue on a course to be a pariah state- and Russians everywhere being looked at with distaste.

[Gator]

The world would be better for you as an US citizen but worse for us. 

Your critical thinking is summarized simply yet profoundly and brilliantly.   Belvis, you may very well be correct. 

Russia is rich in natural resources and human resources (intelligent, educated and determined).  I see such vast richness and wonder why Russia has not done better.   The reasons are probably numerous, yet chief among them surely are  decades of communism now replaced by top heavy, corrupted capitalism.   

If Putin allows the status quo corruption to continue, Russia I guess will avoid becoming worse.  Unless the corruption is ended, however, I do not see how Russia will become better, much less achieve its full potential. 

The corruption seems widespread and deep-seated, requiring no less than a revival and comprehensive reforms.  Putin is the type of personality  who could possibly lead this.  Police corruption is a key place to start.  I understand police are now paid larger salaries.  Has this reduced the bribery? 

   Alas, the world can not be perfect for everybody. But beware the one who will come after Putin, in 8 years.     

Why just 8 more years?  Putin seems like a man who could find a way to stay forever.  The reforms necessary to reduce corruption probably can not be implemented in just 8 more years. 

What type of replacement do you fear?  The Russian transition from communism to a form of capitalism was rough and chaotic, yet new Russia emerged and the standard of living improved.  Could the transition after Putin be worse than that? 

Though you like Putin, you hate Putin, it does not matter. You're a bad guy anyway according to ML's classification of men.

   What I am matters little to the world. 

[whynotme]

Your hatred of Americans and Ukrainians is quite palpable. I see it in nearly every one of your posts.

Sure. Married American, Ukranian ancestries.  I hate Russophobes from RWD.

[Boethius]

Because Russians are not nationalistic, they are imperialistic-minded. Ukrainian nationalism is a kind of shield against outside world, Russian world to be precise. Yes, there is also Russian nationalism, but in marginal forms and under press of the state.
The world would be better for you as an US citizen but worse for us. Alas, the world can not be perfect for everybody. But beware the one who will come after Putin, in 8 years. Though you like Putin, you hate Putin, it does not matter. You're a bad guy anyway according to ML's classification of men.

Nationalism has the same source, no matter where it appears.  Russian nationalism is no different than is Ukrainian nationalism. 

[Boethius]

  What I see in so many who write here who ought to know better is a lack of understanding and empathy for Ukraine generally.Here is a people( a nation) in a desperate battle for self identity-- with real Ukrainians who are sons,husbands,fathers,brothers ,relatives & friends being killed , maimed , injured,millions caught up in a human tragedy caused  by RUSSIANS as a result of RUSSIAN craziness

In all fairness, I don't think you can blame everything that has occurred on Russia.


My husband half believes that Ukrainian politicians and oligarchs wanted a war.  It deflects from them having to do difficult things, such as wrest corruption to the ground, and, of course, the effects of such legislation would have deleterious effects on almost all of them.