Putin and Obama at the G20

[deccie]

I spent two months in Honiara a few years ago, working on a project for my company.  On the only full day off that I had in the entire time, I visited the cemetery beside the airport, had a quick look at one of the wrecked warships which was run aground on one of the beaches about an hour to the west of the town, and also visited an outdoor war museum (all sorts of aircraft and artillery relics) at Vilu in the hills behind the same area (see photos below). 

The relics are everywhere. We saw a lot of  AMTRAC vehicles just parked by the side of the road where they had been abandoned. There was a crashed Zero in the village near where we stayed.  I pried open the magazine on a Japanese rifle that was left on a memorial and sure enough there were still rounds inside and there were tank engines embedded in the beach. We also saw numerous other aircraft wrecks around the place.  I visited before the Solomon Islands civil war so probably got to see the place at its best. The "resort" was stayed was destroyed itself in the subsequent war. Not really a resort since it was thatched huts with kerosene lamps and no electricity... But it was a beautiful place at that time still.

For those who aren't students of Pacific war history, the area directly north of Guadalcanal is known as "Iron Bottom Sound" for the number of warships which were sunk during the battle in November 1942.  This area has become one of the best diving sites in the world, and probably the premier site for wreck diving.  It must have just been coincidence that most of my team were actually qualified open-water divers, and several were able to fit in wreck dives on their days off.

I think it gets quite deep there quite fast. Certainly that was my impression of the place. HMAS Canberra rests there so it was quite significant for us Aussies. (sunk by US ships when it was clear she could not be saved).

[deccie]

Others claim that the Truk Lagoon has the honour .

"see the ghost fleet of Truk Lagoon, the world's best shipwreck destination"

I think the nuclear fleet at Bikini would come close as well and they have one of the few diveable aircraft carrier wrecks there - the USS Saratoga CV-3

[deccie]

Thanks to Jacques Cousteau. 

Aren't the sunken ships considered war graves?   No one is allowed to explore USSS Arizona at the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

Ships as war graves is an idea that is  applied very inconsistently. Even into the 1950's there were forces within the USN that wanted to remove the Arizona. And despite being a constructive total loss Oklahoma was raised (and consequently sank on the way to the scrap yard). They tried to salvage Utah as well up  gave up when it was realized the extent of the difficulty and her limited usefulness.

It is really up to the nations within whose waters the wrecks lie to protect them.  This means, unfortunately, that the USS Houston is being pillaged by Indonesian  salvage hunters. :-( Same this is happening to the Dutch ships and HMAS Perth sunk at the Battle of the Java Sea.   It is well documented the problems HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse are having and many of the wrecks of Jutland have been extensively salvaged.

There are also cultural differences as well. Most Japanese would prefer their remains to be returned home.

[deccie]

I think it depends of who writes the laws. After the Pearl Harbor bombing, most ships were raised, had the bodies removed, repaired and put back in action. The USS Arizona was not raised but divers when down there to salvage metal for the war effort. If you view some photos of the Arizona from the sky, you'll see it's missing it's main turrets and superstructure on the deck was removed. I don't know what they did with the bodies that were in the superstructure.

The forward main gun turret on Arizona is still there with guns. B turret is there but without guns. The two aft turrets have been removed. Some of the guns went to other battleships. (I think I read at least one went into the USS Nevada so if that is correct it got to shoot back before the end of the war) and some were used to build two gun batteries in Hawaii. 

[2tallbill]

Excellent report Mendy.  Far more information than I could find in the US media, who mostly follow Obama's lead.  It seems Obama is not leveling with us about the changing face of the Middle East.  The White House has little to say about Turkey and seems perplexed about Russia. 

Team Obama/Clinton/Kerry has been clueless as to what is happening and even more
clueless how to fix it. If they can't fix it by writing a check or making a speech then
they run around confused.

In Obama's haste to withdraw from Iraq, sign a treaty with Iran,  and "pivot' to Asia, he created a vacuum.   ISIS moved in quickly, and Russia saw the opening and moved in as well.  It was Russia's first positioning in the Middle East ever since Egypt evicted them over 40 years ago. 

And move in they did, in force, under the disguise of fighting "terrorists," who would be anyone against Assad.    Russia propped up Assad, who may have been close to falling had Russia not intervened.    Obama did little to counter Russia's move except to express surprise and predict Russia would become bogged down.  NOT!

That is what happened in a nutshell and how everything could have been prevented.
Had they left 8,000 troops. They could have trained the Iraq military until they could
do stuff on their own. They also could embed Special forces in the military and they
likely wouldn't have cut and run. They Special forces could call in air and artillery support
and coordinate attacks and defenses.

However Obama cut and ran leaving the Iraqi army in shambles. The idiotic lefties
cry boo hoo "George Bush had already made plans to leave by a certain date" and
wahhhh sniff, sniff the local government wouldn't let us stay unless we did XYZ.

That's a bunch of crap. The US wasn't invited to Iraq. Saddam refused us entry.
We took Iraq by force, we destroyed their army and means of defending themselves.
The local government was in charge because we helped them get to that point.
We could have just said, "NO, we aren't leaving on that day." OR We could have
pulled up with a truck and loaded the 7 most argumentative Iraqi leaders up and
drove them out to our base.

Then we could have tried them by military tribunal for stealing funds (which 100%
of them do and did) and shot them at the end of the day and held new elections
or appointed temporary replacements, with the understanding that we investigated
missing funds from time to time from people who gave us grief. What could they do?
stop stealing? become honest? 
 
Liberal: Ooooooooohhh Bill is as bad as Trump, you can't just do stuff like that.
Truth: Actually we can just do stuff like that and my idea isn't anything as bad
as the dipsh!ts Obama/Clinton/Kerry who's ineptitude, incompetence and corruption
caused this to begin with. Those nitwits caused tens of thousands of deaths.

Obama did little to counter Russia's move except to express surprise and predict Russia would become bogged down.  NOT!

Putin didn't follow a liberal battle plan with orders not to shoot this sandman tribe
or that sandman tribe without permission and a court order. They mowed down anybody
who was dumb enough to stand in their path.

If Obama had initiated a battle plan (thankfully he didn't) we would have gotten
bogged down.

Turkey 

Russia was very restrained towards Turkey after Turkey downed a Russian jet.  Turkey was not pleased that the Russians were bombing rebels in Syria allied with Turkey, allied in the sense they were fighting the Kurds, a mortal enemy of Turkey.   The coup came and the US did not extradite the Turkish citizen Gulen accused of orchestrating the coup.  Somehow Russia forgot about the downed jet and cleverly forged an even stronger relationship with Turkey. 

Turkey is back to their historical role of sitting in the middle and getting payola from
both sides. The Black Sea is a lake without Turkey and team Obama always look to
pay money first, second and third any time something comes up. Guess what? Things
will keep coming up.

Lastly Turkey is 72% Sunni and they won't be befriending Iran or making deals with
them or with Syria's Bashar al-Assad.

[tfcrew]

Some key items were discussed. Putin's team said talks were "frozen" while the Obama team touted them as "constructive."

Lesson: Putin is far more straightforward than Obama

For Obama to find any of this to be "constructive" is frightening.

A joint US/Russia endeavor 

Kerry called it a possible "turning point" in the five-year civil war.

If this arrangement holds, then we will see a significant reduction in violence across Syria," Kerry said in an address in Geneva.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said the plan could reduce violence

If the plan is implemented in good faith

A plan which we hope will reduce violence

emphasis mine.
In effect, this is an announcement of a plan that is really wishy washy and and probably won't work out anyway.

[Anotherkiwi]

emphasis mine.
In effect, this is an announcement of a plan that is really wishy washy and and probably won't work out anyway.[/size]

I doubt that you will find any argument from anyone here, whatever their political leanings.

[BillyB]

A joint US/Russia endeavor 

In effect, this is an announcement of a plan that is really wishy washy and and probably won't work out anyway.

Kerry probably offered concessions to get Putin to cooperate. Putin takes the concessions knowing Assad isn't going to cooperate. Hours before the cease fire agreement, Assad vows to take back all of Syria. How's he plan to do that without violence? Seems like every deal Kerry and Obama makes fails.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/syrian-government-determined-to-take-back-all-areas-lost-to-terror-groups-assad-says_us_57d69b6fe4b06a74c9f56125