Is the country of the USA a social and historical experiment?

[krimster2]

“The United States were founded on the idea of finding freedom”

Luda,
At the end of the Revolutionary War there were about 3 million slaves in the United States.
They were at the beginning of the production line picking cotton, while at the other end were white children, some as young as 9 years old working in the cotton mills in New England making 10 cents an hour.  Need coal to power the machinery?  No problem we have lots of little boys who will work in the coal mines for the same wage to feed their family.  They go into the mine before sun-up and emerge after sun-down.  Sunday is the only day of the week they will see the sun. Many will die before they turn 30, and if they survive that long they will have the crippling “black-lung” disease.  This is the reality of the condition of most Americans in this time period.

What is this freedom you speak of?

I think Bo' was right after all...

[2tallbill]

“The United States were founded on the idea of finding freedom”

Luda,
At the end of the Revolutionary War there were about 3 million slaves in the United States.
They were at the beginning of the production line picking cotton, while at the other end were white children, some as young as 9 years old working in the cotton mills in New England making 10 cents an hour.  Need coal to power the machinery?  No problem we have lots of little boys who will work in the coal mines for the same wage to feed their family.  They go into the mine before sun-up and emerge after sun-down.  Sunday is the only day of the week they will see the sun. Many will die before they turn 30, and if they survive that long they will have the crippling “black-lung” disease.  This is the reality of the condition of most Americans in this time period.

What is this freedom you speak of?

I think Bo' was right after all...

Krimster,
The days you describe are long, long gone. None of us here were alive to see it.


Lyudochka,
Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Udachi!

Bill

[Boethius]

Krimster,
The days you describe are long, long gone. None of us here were alive to see it.

But his point is valid.  The "good old days" were never really that good, if you were a poor white, or native American, or black, or a woman, or . . .

[Brasscasing]

But his point is valid.  The "good old days" were never really that good, if you were a poor white, or native American, or black, or a woman, or . . .

Ergo, back to the original question...

"Is the country of the USA a social and historical experiment?"

...An evolving experiment maybe but the premise is sound and it's produced one of the most successful nations in world history (sans some bumps in the road like 77-81, 09-17).

Brass

[krimster2]

"The days you describe are long, long gone. None of us here were alive to see it. "
Really? Ever read "Grapes of Wrath" or see the movie with Henry Fonda?
Ever recently seen a migrant worker's camp in California?  Nothing's changed there at all, I'm afraid...
So why don't we have Child labor anymore, who gave workers some fundamental protections, like the right to organize, who gave the elderly Social Security and Medi-care?  Was it Donald Trump's father?

[Miquel Westano]

But his point is valid.  The "good old days" were never really that good, if you were a poor white, or native American, or black, or a woman, or . . .

Where is it as good for the poor or uneducated as it is for the wealthy and privileged?  This is an argument I have never understood.  There is not one country in the world where the poor or lazy live as good as the wealthy or industrious.  Why should The United States at any time in history be any different? 

Pick a time reference and I bet the poor in the USA lived just as well or better than the same class in any other nation.  Geeze, our poor today are so fat they waddle.  Many on welfare have cars, homes, cell phones, money for booze and drugs and more.

Poor underprivileged people in other countries beg for survival, not dope and cell phones.  The problem with handing out free stuff is, it trains the poor not to be happy on handouts.  They learn to get by on the system better than many who are working every day.

[Boethius]

The point is not what other countries did.  It is that the equality espoused as part of the grand social experiment never truly existed.  It was initially reserved for white men who owned property, which property, for almost 250 years, included other human beings.

[Boethius]

One very telling feature of life in USA today . . . Less than half the adults in USA pay any Federal Income taxes, and many even get 'negative tax' money (welfare) when they file their tax returns.

This fact, virtually alone, is leading us more and more into the 'bad' zones.  A 'give me' cultural can never lead to good outcomes as it defines the dependency stage.

Isn't that because of tax credits for children/college, etc.? 


If you want a prosperous and reproducing nation, you have to make having and raising children an affordable priority.

[Boethius]

0% of people paid Federal Income taxes back when the founding
fathers were alive. The 16th amendment should be repealed !

And people paid far higher taxes in the 1950's, when American power arguably was at its zenith.

[krimster2]

Mr Westano,
you are asserting a stereotype and not reality, I take the following from wikipedia, just google “working poor”

 “While poverty is often associated with joblessness, a significant proportion of the poor are actually employed.”

A look back in history really is necessary to better understand the present.
In 19th century Britain, there were two classes of society, the rich and everyone else, there was only marginally such thing as a “social safety net” a few poignant facts of everyday living stand out.  You should read about the “adulterated” food that the poor ate, because they could not afford “real food” and the impact it had on their health, remember working poor here, remember working meant 12 hour days, 6 days a week, and the result of this was you couldn’t afford bread!  The working poor also couldn’t afford access to health care, they never saw a real doctor, they could only afford a barber/surgeon, who was someone with no real medical training but knew how to set broken bones or similar types of things. 

This is “from whence we came”, and urban life here in America was no different.

The echo of the past can still be seen and heard today in America if you bother to look, however Fox news says you shouldn’t bother, so that’s that I’m afraid.

I have seen the enemy and he is us!

[Boethius]

I agree.  An expression for wealth redistribution is  "dividing the pie, not making the pie bigger."   Such is what happened in Soviet days. 

No, that's not what happened.  The pie was stolen by the few, with crumbs distributed to most.

This happened again with the fall of your CCCP.  Once again the pie was divided, except this time a select few oligarchs grabbed most of the pie and the masses became poorer.   Enterprises were started, yet they were not exactly free given the rampant corruption. 

Look at Russia in 1900.   It  had the natural resources and human resources to equal the achievements of the United States.   So sad.   Russia fell well short of its full potential because it did not foster free enterprise and did not have a democratic government.

Again, I disagree.  Every single oligarch was part of the nomenklatura at some level, whether large or small.  That is pretty much the case in every former republic of the USSR.


Russia was turning a corner before WWI.  But it did have a lot of backwardness to overcome.  I disagree with your assertion free enterprise did not exist.  It did, which is why Russia was a magnet for many foreigners.

[Miquel Westano]

The point is not what other countries did.  It is that the equality espoused as part of the grand social experiment never truly existed.  It was initially reserved for white men who owned property, which property, for almost 250 years, included other human beings.

Neither the founders of the USA, or the framers of the Constitution ever claimed everyone would have equal amounts of anything except human rights.  They never said the poor can live as well as the rich.  That is the BS spouted in communist takeovers. 

And those white folks that are always vilified, died by the tens of thousands, to right a wrong that came over from Europe.  Slavery was around long before the USA was formed, and it likely still around today.  But not here where white men died to eradicate it. 

Anyone who believes the poor will live as well as the rich in any nation on earth is a fool.  And, they don't deserve to, if they are going to do it on the backs of others.

If people want handouts, it should be in the form of food and shelter, not cash or EBT cards.  There should be a shame with failure.  That is a great motivator to learn to succeed.  The poor don't deserve free phones, cars, junk food or cable TV.  If they want free stuff they need to get by with bare living minimums.  If they want luxuries they need to work for them.

[Boethius]

Neither the founders of the USA, or the framers of the Constitution ever claimed everyone would have equal amounts of anything except human rights.  They never said the poor can live as well as the rich.  That is the BS spouted in communist takeovers. 

LOL.  If you didn't exist, we'd have to make you up.


The human rights of Indians, blacks, women, and poor people didn't matter.  That's the point krimster made, and with which I agree.

And those white folks that are always vilified, died by the tens of thousands, to right a wrong that came over from Europe.  Slavery was around long before the USA was formed, and it likely still around today.  But not here where white men died to eradicate it. 

None of which negates the fact that it existed in the America you claim was founded on "human rights"

Anyone who believes the poor will live as well as the rich in any nation on earth is a fool.  And, they don't deserve to, if they are going to do it on the backs of others.

Anyone who believes the poor are completely responsible for their predicament is blind to the realities of life.

[krimster2]

“And people paid far higher taxes in the 1950's, when American power arguably was at its zenith.”

Oh yes, a quick google on US federal tax rates will show you that the rich used to pay more than twice what they now pay, and that’s before you even get to tax shelters, just ask Mit Romney about that, he’ll show you how to take it all the way down to zero...

When I was a wee lad, moy Dadooska used to take me on trips to the big Apple, I remember that we had to avoid the “Garment District” in Manhattan at lunch time and shift changes, because quite literally tens of thousands of women would suddenly emerge from the little factories they worked in, yes factories in Manhattan! I was told at the time there were 250,000 seamstresses employed there, but by then the jobs were beginning to leave to Asia, and before you could say “transfer pricing” the jobs were all gone!  The little factories are now condos sold in blocks to wealthy Chinese investors who also get a  EB-5 immigrant investor visa in the process and can bring their children over and with a sufficient endowment get them into Harvard. God bless America!

[Miquel Westano]

Mr Westano,
you are asserting a stereotype and not reality, I take the following from wikipedia, just google “working poor”

 “While poverty is often associated with joblessness, a significant proportion of the poor are actually employed.”

A look back in history really is necessary to better understand the present.
In 19th century Britain, there were two classes of society, the rich and everyone else, there was only marginally such thing as a “social safety net” a few poignant facts of everyday living stand out.  You should read about the “adulterated” food that the poor ate, because they could not afford “real food” and the impact it had on their health, remember working poor here, remember working meant 12 hour days, 6 days a week, and the result of this was you couldn’t afford bread!  The working poor also couldn’t afford access to health care, they never saw a real doctor, they could only afford a barber/surgeon, who was someone with no real medical training but knew how to set broken bones or similar types of things. 

This is “from whence we came”, and urban life here in America was no different.

The echo of the past can still be seen and heard today in America if you bother to look, however Fox news says you shouldn’t bother, so that’s that I’m afraid.

I have seen the enemy and he is us!

I have no problem helping the working poor.  I have no problem helping the truly disabled.  I have no problem taking care of the elderly.

I have a problem with the lazy bums who live generation after generation on welfare while walking around in $200 sneakers, talking on cell phones, eating junk food and going to starbucks, and driving cars instead of walking or taking the bus.

My grandfather worked every day of his life from age 10 in 1918, the year his father died in the flu pandemic, and he walked to work.  If the weather was terrible, he took a city bus.  If it is good enough for my grandfather, it is good enough for anyone else.

I begrudge no one who does everything they can for themselves.  But I owe bums nothing.  If I can make my way they can make theirs.  This working poor thing is suspect in my mind.  But anyway I don't mind helping any truly working poor.  I do mind helping those who can, but wont, work.

[Miquel Westano]

LOL.  If you didn't exist, we'd have to make you up.


The human rights of Indians, blacks, women, and poor people didn't matter.  That's the point krimster made, and with which I agree.

None of which negates the fact that it existed in the America you claim was founded on "human rights"


Anyone who believes the poor are completely responsible for their predicament is blind to the realities of life.

First, I wasn't here then.  So none of that is relevant to me.  I know this may shock you, but I have never been a slave owner.  Neither has one single white person I know.  I don't owe anyone for the sins committed before my grandparents were even thought of.

Second, I never said there were not inequalities.  I said, quite simply the founders/framers never promised any equality beyond equal rights. 

And, as I said, lots of white people died to insure the practice of slavery ended.  I always hear libs blaming whites for slavery.  But, I never hear them commending them for sending their sons to die to end it.

[Boethius]

Second, I never said there were not inequalities.  I said, quite simply the founders/framers never promised any equality beyond equal rights. 

There were not equal rights, and there still are not.

[krimster2]

“Again, I disagree.  Every single oligarch was part of the nomenklatura at some level, whether large or small.  That is pretty much the case in every former republic of the USSR.”

That’ pretty much how the whole oligarch thing worked!

Go to wikipedia and get the list of journalists killed in Russia, here ya’ go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

Now go to page 32, haha I’m kidding, but look at the name “Paul Klebnikov”, who was the chief editor of newly established Russian version of Forbes magazine.  Gunned down in front of his young daughter, Why? Wel-l-l-l-l, Paul just published the Russian Fortune 500, about the 500 richest people in Russia, something that had never been done before or since, and it showed that about 80% of Russia’s Fortune 500, were “the nomenklatura” who expropriated some national resource, i.e. nickel mine, oil field, etc. and took the title to the property and where it said owned by the people of Russia, crossed that out and put in their own name, wow 80%!!!

A high price to pay for such knowledge, but there it is, and no, no one was ever convicted for his murder, no one ever is...

[krimster2]

"And, as I said, lots of white people died to insure the practice of slavery ended."

No, not really what the Civil War was directly about.  The election of Lincoln, showed that the more populous North could pass any legislation or elect any President it wanted by out voting the south.  Therefor the south no longer had any power in the Federal government, and the North could and would always vote against Southern interests, so the South decided to leave the Union.  Slavery was part of the equation, but not the sum of it, it was the South's ineffective representation in the Federal government that led to succession, after-all in 1861 slavery was not abolished nor was there any threat to do so, just limit it, by restricting future states to further reduce the South's power.

[GQBlues]

Interesting conversation unfolding here...

For the sake of clarity and applicability in present day America, can any of you define exactly what is a 'white person, man, woman' in America is today? Careful with your answer as people like Beyoncé may find it offensive.

[Miquel Westano]

"And, as I said, lots of white people died to insure the practice of slavery ended."

No, not really what the Civil War was directly about.  The election of Lincoln, showed that the more populous North could pass any legislation or elect any President it wanted by out voting the south.  Therefor the south no longer had any power in the Federal government, and the North could and would always vote against Southern interests, so the South decided to leave the Union.  Slavery was part of the equation, but not the sum of it, it was the South's ineffective representation in the Federal government that led to succession, after-all in 1861 slavery was not abolished nor was there any threat to do so, just limit it, by restricting future states to further reduce the South's power.

Please read what I said.  I agree, the war was caused by disagreements over states rights, taxes and other issues as well as slavery.  In fact I believe until the republishing of Uncle Tom's Cabin, in I think 1862 or 1863 many were indifferent to slavery.  Mostly, because they knew little of it, other than it existed.

Harriet Beecher Stowe changed the face of the war.  It went from battles over finances and power to a war of cultures with slavery at the heart of it.  I firmly believe many men who fought would not have, had the novel never been reintroduced in the heart of the war.

But, whether the war began over slavery or not, by mid war it was a huge factor.  Slavery was accepted worldwide and the Americans changed that.  It is a proud moment in a dark time when white men went to war to free black slaves.  I hate the thought of slavery.  I am not, or have I ever been pro slavery and will never voice any support for any form of it.

But I didn't have anything to do with it and also am not willing to carry a guilt over it.  It came and went way before my time just like the Crusades.  It is time we focused on the problems in America today, not those of 150 years ago.

[Miquel Westano]

Interesting conversation unfolding here...

For the sake of clarity and applicability in present day America, can any of you define exactly what is a 'white person, man, woman' in America is today? Careful with your answer as people like Beyoncé may find it offensive.

I think loosely; white would tend to indicate a person of primarily European descent.  But there are many folks who may disagree.  I do not know how those of mixed heritage would ID themselves.  It may come down to how they were raised and who had the strongest influence in their lives. 

[Brasscasing]

The point is not what other countries did.  It is that the equality espoused as part of the grand social experiment never truly existed.  It was initially reserved for white men who owned property, which property, for almost 250 years, included other human beings.

Where did that figure come from?

If you are to take (let's say the Declaration of Independence) 1776 and the 13th Amendment 1865, that's 89 years. Not bad considering there is only a 31 year difference between the Imperial Act 1834 and the 13th Amendment.

Historically, up to that point (1833) the US was in line with the rest of the planet as far as slavery went.

Look at France...emancipates their slaves in 1794 but then actually reinstates slavery in 1804 and it's not outlawed until 1819.

Keep in mind while the British and French were doing a booming trade in slave trading during the later part of the 18th century, the US were passing laws to curtail slavery...

Slave Trade Act of 1794

..."The Slave Trade Act of 1794 was a law passed by the United States Congress that limited American involvement in the trade of human cargo. This was the first of several acts of Congress that eventually outlawed the importation of slaves to the United States. The owning of slaves would later be made illegal in the U.S. by the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1865."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_of_1794

Brass

[krimster2]

Oddly enough my father wrote a book on this subject when he was in his 80‘s and beginning to suffer from dementia, but a good read none the less.  It kind of has echos of the Russian bride movement, whereas Octaroon women were physically desirable but not socially so, an imperfect analogy to be sure, but yet not dissimilar.  My father’s novel was set in New Orleans and I think based somewhat upon personal experience and portrayed the conflict of a man drawn to an octaroon woman, but although they shared warm relations, he was restricted to not being able to marry her, so he married a legal white woman but was unhappy, and in the end of the story he revealed that he himself was an octaroon indistinguishable from a full white.
I should disclose that my father was a Russian Jew, and that I according to Nuremberg laws am a Mischling who once worked at Grundig’s TV factory in Nuremberg, Germany, and while there comported myself as a crypto-Jew, due to my last name being German sounding and so pretended to be of German extraction, funny huh?? 

[GQBlues]

Oddly enough my father wrote a book on this subject when he was in his 80‘s and beginning to suffer from dementia, but a good read none the less.  It kind of has echos of the Russian bride movement, whereas Octaroon women were physically desirable but not socially so, an imperfect analogy to be sure, but yet not dissimilar.  My father’s novel was set in New Orleans and I think based somewhat upon personal experience and portrayed the conflict of a man drawn to an octaroon woman, but although they shared warm relations, he was restricted to not being able to marry her, so he married a legal white woman but was unhappy, and in the end of the story he revealed that he himself was an octaroon indistinguishable from a full white.
I should disclose that my father was a Russian Jew, and that I according to Nuremberg laws am a Mischling who once worked at Grundig’s TV factory in Nuremberg, Germany, and while there comported myself as a crypto-Jew, due to my last name being German sounding and so pretended to be of German extraction, funny huh??

Good story. FWIW, your father’s subject man could’ve easily been called another *angry white man* in present day America.

I could share more than a few good stories with you one of these days. For now just a short one. I was a baller in our HS team and one of my teammate came from Brazil. Good player, a quick and dead shooter. He looked a lot like NBAer Barbosa. He cracked me up a lot back then with all his social experiences he’d share with me. He tells me how back home ‘blacks’ were just as discriminated as African-Americans say they are here. Tells me he’s definitely ‘black’ when he goes home, but brothers here tell him he’s f-o-s because his US ID says he’s *white*.

Go and Google ‘Brazilian Basketball Player’ and gaze at the line-up of players it produces. Somewhere, sometime in the USA, now or in the not-so-distant future, all these stupid racial distinction will be obsolete, and all we’d really have will all be just distinction in shades of brown.

George Lopez once exclaimed how tired he was of all the racial talks and prejudices in the US – especially when and where, for the most part – none existed. So he said," I can’t wait for the day where everyone mated with everyone so everyone in America would all be Filipinos.!"