Twaddle & Tosh

[msmob]

Like I said, converted Jews are still Jews. Otherwise who are they? Chinese? Aliyah and registration in Israel - it's a different story. And now you gonna teach ex Israeli soldier about IDF service? ARABS don't serve, not Christians. Ethnic Christian Russians DO serve and MUST serve. What's the point to discuss life in Israel here? The only reason we started talking about Israel is just to talk about Jews who are Christians in Israel. And those guys are being persecuted in Israel, though in a very mild way vs. what happens in Israel's neighboring states to Arab Muslim converts. People lose jobs, being attacked, their cars are being vandalized etc. No one died so far. And definitely Israel's freedom of speech doesn't cover those guys. Therefore, one can't expect a complete freedom of speech under Putin.

P.S. We assume here that there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity. I personally doubt it, but officially in Israel it does exist. Just to explain myself better. They refuse to register a Jew as a Christian in Israel, so I assume that if you really push it, then your religion would be Christian and nothing would be mentioned as your nationality (ethnicity).

"Arab's can't serve" - Bedouin can volunteer to enlist and many do ...

You just can't stop walking unto more punches with your 'analogies'

You made a rod for your own back - when starting off on 'freedom of speech' comparisons.. For most of us what / who we are is defined by ourselves - not the state.  To me, IF a Jew converts to Christianity - he / she is a Christian - they would not be changing citizenship...

Thank goodness I come from a nation where ones ethnicity is not supposed to effect whether you can serve your nation - if one chooses to do so.

[Boethius]

Again, we're talking about apples and oranges here. In ISRAEL NOW it's not the same as it used to be hundreds of years ago in Diaspora. Say, under tsar in Russia a converted Jew was just as every other Christian Russian and therefore not Jewish. But nowadays in Israel a converted Jew doesn't become Russian or German or French. He still lives AMONG JEWS AS A JEW (since the only other option is to become an Arab, which is almost not realistic). There's no third community in Israel, just two. You're either Jewish and live as a "normal" Israeli among Israeli Jews, work among them, speak Hebrew, serve in IDF, go to Jewish Israeli schools etc. OR you are part of Israeli ARAB community (regardless whether it's a Muslim Arab community or a Christian Arab community), and no Christian Jew or even Christian Russian would go there or would be accepted. The ONLY exception to this rule is when, say, an Israeli Muslim Arab marries a Christian woman from Russia, she officially converts to Islam, learns Arabic and lives and works among ARABS in their SEPARATE world (i.e., in an Arab community). And their children would be regular Israeli Arabs. But it's not what we talk about here.
P.S. In a way, Israel is a lighter version of South Africa under apartheid. You're either White or Colored. You can't be half-White. It's either or. That's why South African Jews fell under White category.

Yes, it is apples and oranges.  I am speaking of religion only.

[papakota]

"Arab's can't serve" - Bedouin can volunteer to enlist and many do ...

You just can't stop walking unto more punches with your 'analogies'

You made a rod for your own back - when starting off on 'freedom of speech' comparisons.. For most of us what / who we are is defined by ourselves - not the state.  To me, IF a Jew converts to Christianity - he / she is a Christian - they would not be changing citizenship...

Thank goodness I come from a nation where ones ethnicity is not supposed to effect whether you can serve your nation - if one chooses to do so.

No one talks about volunteers here. And Bedouins are not exactly regular Israeli Arabs (same as Druze, BTW). Also it depends what we consider as "serving". Serving in my book is when you serve as everybody else and have a chance to become an officer etc. It does not apply to your Bedouins. Your personal opinion doesn't matter in Israel. Israelis won't listen to you, trust me. Here in Russia it's also like in Western countries in that sense, but in Israel it's totally opposite. Say, in my Russian official documents ethnicity and religion aren't mentioned, while in my Israeli papers they are. Well, in Russian marriage certificate one can put their ethnicity, but it's optional. And it does not bear any official consequences. In israel it's totally opposite. Unlike in Russia, in Israel you can't even get married. There's no civil marriage institute. In Russia you can do it easily. Russia is much more Western even vs. Israel, let alone countries like Iran. Therefore, you saying that Russia is completely not free under Putin is simply not true. In a way, it's freer than Israel. Otherwise, I wouldn't be living in Russia with an Israeli passport in my left pocket (in a right one there is a Russian passport).

[papakota]

Yes, it is apples and oranges.  I am speaking of religion only.

Is it a theological forum all of a sudden? Am I a catechumen once again? We are not talking about religious doctrines. We are talking about a social life in Israel, including an access to Israeli mainstream mass media. Remember, we talk about freedom of speech in Russia under Putin vs. freedom of speech in Israel. You guys yourself always try to drift away from the topic, while accusing me of doing that.

[Boethius]

I was always referring to religion.  How Israel decides to define people, which is more about demographics than anything else (i.e., not being outpopulated by Arabs) is irrelevant to me.

[papakota]

I was always referring to religion.  How Israel decides to define people, which is more about demographics than anything else (i.e., not being outpopulated by Arabs) is irrelevant to me.

Both religion and official Israeli demographics are irrelevant in this thread. What is relevant is how regular Israelis treat Christian Jews and what would be your chances on state Israeli TV to get an airtime to try to convince Israeli Jews to convert to Christianity. Your chances are about the same as here in Russia nowadays to criticize Putin. Therefore, if Russia and Israel both fall into the same category in that sense and Israel is considered a pretty free society in the West, then there's no need to picture Russia under Putin as a totalitarian state. Makes sense now?

[Boethius]

I don't recall ever arguing about Putin's Russia being a totalitarian state.  By definition, it cannot be, as a couple of the classic (by political scientists) indicia of totalitarian regimes are forced labour and restricted emigration. 

[papakota]

I don't recall ever arguing about Putin's Russia being a totalitarian state.  By definition, it cannot be, as a couple of the classic (by political scientists) indicia of totalitarian regimes are forced labour and restricted emigration.

Whatever. You guys said that in Russia there is no freedom of speech therefore Russia is not a country where people enjoy basic freedoms. And still Israel is a lot like Russia when it comes to civil freedoms and since you in the West consider Israel as generally a free country, then you shouldn't apply different standards to Putin's Russia. Like I said before, what's good for a goose, good for a gander.
P.S. You can come to Russia and easily marry a Russian woman. Now come to Israel and marry an Israeli woman (something that you won't be allowed to since there is no civil marriage) and you'll appreciate Putin in about two seconds.

[Boethius]

I never stated Russia has no freedom of speech.

[papakota]

I never stated Russia has no freedom of speech.

Perfect! Then finally we agree on something. At least Russia has a freedom of marriage, something that pro Western Israel doesn't have. That's all I had to prove. You try to apply to Russia harsher standards than to countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia. I don't like Putin, but fair is fair. For whatever reason, he didn't cancel most freedoms that Russians used to enjoy in 90's.

[Boethius]

I have never applied harsher standards to Russia than to other countries.  But if I were to do so, I would apply standards of my country, as that is the one with which I am most familiar.  In this regard, I will say that Russia is exceedingly more corrupt than my country.  It's not even a comparison.


Israel, BTW, has only religious marriage because on its founding, marriage was considered a matter of personal status, and hence, to fall to religious authorities


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_(Israel)

[papakota]

Corruption in Russia is a totally different story. Here I would agree with you. As per basic civil freedoms,  I have an impression that on this forum there is a general idea that in Russia people don't enjoy basic freedoms as in Western countries. And I'm not talking about you personally. Maybe you have a different opinion in that regard.

As per reasons behind status quo in Israel, I know them. Lack of Constitution in Israel complicates matters too. But it's beyond the scope of this thread. Our discussion started on civil freedoms in Russia vs. civil freedoms in Germany and Israel. People here disagreed with me when I said that in Russia the situation isn't that bad and as an example I mentioned Germany and Israel. That's all there's to it. In a sense, Russia under Putin is freer than Israel. Not just the marriage thing. In Russia, there is no discrimination based on ethnicity, no apartheid living and no forced state registration of person's ethnicity and religion (something that was canceled in Yeltsin's times). In Russia there is a separation between a religion and a state. Something that does not exist in Israel. In Russia lots of people get higher education for free (something non-existent in Israel), in Russia you get 28 days off per year (while in Israel you won't get even 14). People here only talk about Ukraine and Crimea like the world revolves around those things. It gives an impression that Putin's Russia is almost a North Korea. I think that Turkmenistan is a richer analog to North Korea in Former Soviet Union.

P.S. I hope we won't start discussing Turkmenistan vs. North Korea in this thread.

[msmob]

I never stated Russia has no freedom of speech.

Nor - for that matter did I...

It's just papakota, deflecting from his howlers.... You can say what you want - until you stand a chance of an audience - if it is not what the current incumbent of the Kremlin wants    Ask some of the TV/ Radio stations that lost their licences in Crimea....   check what has happened to large and truly independent RU TV outlets ..

Our 'expert' has told us:  Arabs can't serve in the IDF ... when they can and do .. yet he is the one that lived there...

He has suggested some bizarre negatives re UA ladies over RU ones and a perceived lack of safety in UA cities over RU ones.

Hence, my suggesting his perspective seems to be constantly at variance with my experiences of the same places..

 

[msmob]

Corruption in Russia is a totally different story. Here I would agree with you. As per basic civil freedoms,  I have an impression that on this forum there is a general idea that in Russia people don't enjoy basic freedoms as in Western countries. And I'm not talking about you personally. Maybe you have a different opinion in that regard.

The impression is correct ....  Before the immigration crisis I could drive from France to the border of Belarus without any state needing to know I had entered or left.  Many Russian civil occupations are now forbidden to holiday abroad and I don't know any western nation that imposes a necessity to reveal one's online ID if one becomes a popular blogger (3,000) followers )

The UK doesn't feel the need to own / control the most popular TV stations and foreigners can and do own major news outlets.










As per reasons behind status quo in Israel, I know them. Lack of Constitution in Israel complicates matters too. But it's beyond the scope of this thread. Our discussion started on civil freedoms in Russia vs. civil freedoms in Germany and Israel. People here disagreed with me when I said that in Russia the situation isn't that bad and as an example I mentioned Germany and Israel. That's all there's to it. In a sense, Russia under Putin is freer than Israel. Not just the marriage thing. In Russia, there is no discrimination based on ethnicity, no apartheid living and no forced state registration of person's ethnicity and religion (something that was canceled in Yeltsin's times). In Russia there is a separation between a religion and a state. Something that does not exist in Israel. In Russia lots of people get higher education for free (something non-existent in Israel), in Russia you get 28 days off per year (while in Israel you won't get even 14). People here only talk about Ukraine and Crimea like the world revolves around those things. It gives an impression that Putin's Russia is almost a North Korea. I think that Turkmenistan is a richer analog to North Korea in Former Soviet Union.

P.S. I hope we won't start discussing Turkmenistan vs. North Korea in this thread.
[/quote]

[tfcrew]

Jesus was never a Christian. 

Proves you never were that smart.

[Boethius]

LOL.  Yes, He stated He was a Christian.  He never asserted he came for the lost sheep of Israel.  He said He came to found the Christian church.

[tfcrew]

  He never asserted he came for the lost sheep of Israel.   

I'll help you out there...

  Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 
^{Matt 6 ..
5} These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
⁶ But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
⁷ And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Point being that salvation was with the Jews but the Jewish people were only three tribes of the twelve of Israel. The Jews in whole rejected their own messiah. The other tribes were lost in history centuries earlier.

The object is find them and and bring salvation to them.

Who are these people? They're everywhere. Could be you could be me.






 

[papakota]

Our 'expert' has told us:  Arabs can't serve in the IDF ... when they can and do .. yet he is the one that lived there...

He has suggested some bizarre negatives re UA ladies over RU ones and a perceived lack of safety in UA cities over RU ones.

Hence, my suggesting his perspective seems to be constantly at variance with my experiences of the same places..

I didn't say that Israeli Arabs can't serve in IDF. I just said that they're not being drafted in a compulsory way and that their service would be somewhat limited (i.e., no service in Army Intelligence, Nuclear arsenal, Air Force etc.). If an Arab volunteers to serve and Army accepts him, then there is no reason why he can't serve, but those are exceptions that prove the rule.

As per everything else, that's just my personal experience. I don't push it on anybody here. I believe that I'm in a better position to know Russian ladies than someone who lives across the globe and doesn't speak Russian. But you're welcome to disagree.

[msmob]

I didn't say that Israeli Arabs can't serve in IDF.

You are welcome to check - I have quoted your EXACT words - twice, already ! This is just another example of your 'moving the goal posts - when busted

I believe that I'm in a better position to know Russian ladies than someone who lives across the globe and doesn't speak Russian. But you're welcome to disagree.

I've lived with / among Russian speakers or E.Eastern Europeans since 1980.... Naturally, I am still  clueless ...and have never learnt a word of Russian [hint - ironic sarcasm / British 'black humour' ].....

I am 'picking' on you, because you often suggest some of us LIVING - long-term with FSU partners - or even living there - must walk around with our ears and eyes closed;)

[Brasscasing]

You are welcome to check - I have quoted your EXACT words - twice, already ! This is just another example of your 'moving the goal posts - when busted

Mind if I take a look/see?

Like I said, converted Jews are still Jews. Otherwise who are they? Chinese? Aliyah and registration in Israel - it's a different story. And now you gonna teach ex Israeli soldier about IDF service? ARABS don't serve, not Christians. Ethnic Christian Russians DO serve and MUST serve. What's the point to discuss life in Israel here? The only reason we started talking about Israel is just to talk about Jews who are Christians in Israel. And those guys are being persecuted in Israel, though in a very mild way vs. what happens in Israel's neighboring states to Arab Muslim converts. People lose jobs, being attacked, their cars are being vandalized etc. No one died so far. And definitely Israel's freedom of speech doesn't cover those guys. Therefore, one can't expect a complete freedom of speech under Putin.

"Arab's can't serve" - Bedouin can volunteer to enlist and many do ...

I didn't say that Israeli Arabs can't serve in IDF. I just said that they're not being drafted in a compulsory way and that their service would be somewhat limited (i.e., no service in Army Intelligence, Nuclear arsenal, Air Force etc.). If an Arab volunteers to serve and Army accepts him, then there is no reason why he can't serve, but those are exceptions that prove the rule.

Papakota, seems Moby's been watching the "Beeb" (as he likes to refer to it) again and it appears has decided to add Israeli Defense Service Law to the looong list of subjects he'll insist he's 'expert' in....Just ask him.

(Clarifying for the readership) You are correct. Arab citizens are exempt from compulsory service in the IDF (Conscription).

However, Arab citizens (of Israel) are encouraged to, and do, voluntarily enlist in the IDF as Moby stated and you clarified in a later post.

As the quotes show Moby thought he'd just substitute your original wording "don't" with "can't"  altering the gist of your original comment then proceed to create a false argument.

Moby will play these games with people's wording when he finds himself needing to create a red herring in subjects he's put himself in over his head with.

So, he's not "quoted your EXACT words - twice, already", he's quoted his own exact words - "twice" already, to generate a false argument and throw the discussion.

Just thought you should be aware of it.


Brass

[papakota]

You are welcome to check - I have quoted your EXACT words - twice, already ! This is just another example of your 'moving the goal posts - when busted

I've lived with / among Russian speakers or E.Eastern Europeans since 1980.... Naturally, I am still  clueless ...and have never learnt a word of Russian [hint - ironic sarcasm / British 'black humour' ].....

I am 'picking' on you, because you often suggest some of us LIVING - long-term with FSU partners - or even living there - must walk around with our ears and eyes closed;)

You're like a 5 yo. It's so annoying talking like that. I have to explain my every single word. You know 2+2=4 and 3x3=9. Moscow is in Europe and not Africa. Arabs probably can serve in IDF, but they don't. Just because 10 Arab volunteers wash dishes and paint fences  in IDF, doesn't mean Arabs serve in IDF. By "serving" I mean compulsory combat service and all the rights and obligations, possible military career, access to classified information, decision making etc. Janitors also work in Microsoft. So what? They helped in creating OS then? When we say that someone works in Microsoft, we don't mean janitors, though possibly technically a few of them could be legally employed by the corporation.

OK, you're so smart and I'm so stupid. You know everything and I know nothing. I was living in Israel since I was 16 (I've been Israeli for 26 years now), finished HS there, served in IDF (though for a short time), worked for like 7 years, attended University, all in Hebrew, of course. Overall, I spent about 14 years in Israel (net time period, meaning only the time I was physically there). And I still have no clue about Israelis and Israel. In Israel I feel like a tourist with a passport. You have to be born somewhere, speak their language as your native one and spend most of your life living there. Only then you know the place and the people. And I bet that I know Israelis and Israel better than you know Russia and Russians.

[papakota]

P.S. And one more thing. When I said that "Arabs don't serve", I was replying to Boethius when she claimed that Christians don't serve. What I meant to say that only Arab Israelis (as opposed to non-Arab Christian Israelis) are exempt from compulsory military service in Israel.
I didn't mean to say that no single Arab serves in IDF. You know, I read somewhere that a few part-Jews in Germany served in SS. Are you gonna claim now that Jews served in SS? This whole argument is just a waste of time and emotions, that's all.

[papakota]

Just thought you should be aware of it.
Brass

Yeah, thanks! It's called an argument for the sake of argument. Bla, bla, bla.

[msmob]

Papakota, seems Moby's been watching the "Beeb" (as he likes to refer to it) again and it appears has decided to add Israeli Defense Service Law to the looong list of subjects he'll insist he's 'expert' in....Just ask him.

Brass - seems like you're trying - and failing - as usual - to imagine my life ...  back to reality....   Just to be clear  - The whole basis of my knowledge involves having BEEN to Israel ...

You are correct. Arab citizens are exempt from compulsory service in the IDF (Conscription).

As you correctly point out ..Papakota said Arabs DON'T - not can't serve.. However - in your attempt to 'help out' - you neglected to quote from Papakota's first pronouncement in this thread  - which caused me to - once again - question the veracity of his knowledge - viz there being only two communities in Israel and by inference - only Jews ( and Christians) serving

Moby will play these games with people's wording when he finds himself needing to create a red herring in subjects he's put himself in over his head with.

How is your shaving mirror, today ?

[papakota]

The only Gentiles who served with me were Russians (IF they were Christians, not sure, maybe Jewish) and Druze. Those are the only two Gentile categories of Israeli citizens who serve "normally" more or less. Why are we even discussing it. Who cares? If I, as Israeli citizen don't care about it, why would people like you care?

"BEEN to Israel" - And I've been to over a dozen of countries. I spent couple of days in Turkey. So what? Would I pretend now to know how Turkish soldiers serve in Turkey?