Twaddle & Tosh

[msmob]

No intelligent, logical thinking western man should even be thinking about going anywhere in Russia to meet anyone.

Read the news.

UTTER TOSH

I am writing from Russia and have never been a fan of their president - but going by your advice - should 'we' stay away from America ?  I mean 'you' just voted in Trump ? )

Most Russians are apolitical and don't care about politics - I found this esp. so in Piter, where the creative, arty folks reckon they can live with less red tape than in many western nations.

Mind you, while trying to help SC reverse out of the parking bay - when she collected me from the airport - 3 drivers just drove at me - just missing me - rather than waiting for her - 2 were ladies - so you might have a point ))

[wallm]

UTTER TOSH

I am writing from Russia and have never been a fan of their president - but going by your advice - should 'we' stay away from America ?  I mean 'you' just voted in Trump ? )

So you are equating that thug who doesn’t give a shit about individual liberties and will cook up charges and imprison anyone if that person speaks out against him and will have his opponents poisoned and shot, to Trump? Sheer ignorance. 

[Gator]

Mind you, while trying to help SC reverse out of the parking bay - when she collected me from the airport - 3 drivers just drove at me - just missing me - rather than waiting for her - 2 were ladies - so you might have a point ))

I guess Russia still has not enacted a Yield to Pedestrian law. 

I recall crossing the wide avenues in Moscow - it was almost comical watching the short-legged babushkas sprinting  across.   


 

[msmob]

I can tell that the situation in Russia now is not even close to what was going on in Brezhnev's times (I wouldn't even mention Stalin's times). One can travel freely, exchange foreign currency, own an apartment, start their own business etc. There's still a freedom of press in Russia. Go to Эхо Москвы or телеканал Дождь and you'll see stuff that even in Brezhnev's time would get you jailed at the spot. In Stalin's time those guys wouldn't survive a single day physically. And under Putin they can live more or less happily and do their job.

Oh please .. Don't try to insult our intelligence..

All the top watch TV stns are run by or owned by cronies of the Kremlin ... Plenty of Echo of Moscow contributors have been 'outed' as 'corrupt' or are now 'ex-pats...one example being Ilya Ponomarev  ..'freedom of the press' is a joke - censorship is forbidden under the RF constitution but is a fact ..for those who are too politically active.

Rain has been throttled by Roskomnadzor ( RU Media watchdog) and it's availability on TV lineups is way down ..

I cannot believe you claim to live in Russia and post stuff that proves you must wear blinkers

My personal experience is that it's generally safer in Moscow area than in Ukraine and there's more order in general. Also it's much easier to get along with women in Russia, than with women in Ukraine. 

NOT my experience..  I don't feel any less safe in Kyiv than Moscow ...and the ladies are essentially the same - esp. if they don't take ( most of)  their  respective tv news channels as the whole truth

I disagree that nowadays the economic situation in Russia is so great and stable. People lose jobs, ruble plummeted and prices grow. Where I live if you earn an average salary, you can only rent a cheap studio apartment, eat and almost all of your money is gone. If you earn an average US salary and rent a studio apartment and eat, you still have about 50% of the money left. But it's not just money. It's a quality of medical services etc. Incomparable. Away from Moscow even doctors earn about US$150 per month. It's nothing. Literally.

Where DO you get your 'info' ..?  We have a neighbour - a Gynaecologist - from Moscow - who has a flat in Sochi, too - I know she earns [ at lot ] more than you suggest ..   I was offered a part-time job which pays twice that - in Sochi - for 30 hours work ... work visa provided ... 

Also it's not easy for an average looking local woman to find a decent partner for marriage. So it all comes down to who you are and your demands in a potential partner. In Ukraine the economic situation is more desperate, so it might be somewhat easier to find women for marriage, but those women just want to escape Ukraine. They might not even like you (I won't even mention love). If a Russian woman is willing to marry you, chances are she at least likes you and not just your passport. My Russian wife doesn't want to go anywhere, though an average salary in my country of citizenship is FIVE times higher Russian average. Let alone medical services and etc.

More highly subjective twaddle ..  What do you mean by 'decent partner'? One who can support her financially or one that is loyal and doesn't feel the need to go zapoi [ drinking binge ] when the going gets tough ?

To suggest it's only UA women who might marry without love - to 'get out' ...risible....  I personally know a western guy who was fleeced by a Russian lady and 'rescued' by other Russian who knew she was already married and just taking him for a ride..

As per agencies, most are scammers, of course, but not all. I'll try to find out locally about the decent ones in Moscow area. And then I'll post my recommendations.

Based on your 'info', so far  - I recommend your observations / recommendations be taken with a large pinch of salt - sorry. You are severely biased re the Rodina v Ukraine - to the point of lunacy (

[papakota]

There is no absolute freedom of speech in most countries. Say, in Germany one can be jailed for denying a Holocaust. Try in Israel to start proving in mass media that Jews have a right to be Christians etc. No one is saying that in Israel or in Germany there is no freedom of speech or a freedom of press because of that. Why do you apply different standards to Russia? I don't defend Putin. He's done a lot to damage civil freedoms in Russia. Still, the current situation in Russia in this regard is incomparably better than one in Soviet Union, even in Brezhnev's era. TV Rain is available to those who are willing to pay for private digital TV channels. Let alone that they have an Internet broadcasting for those who are willing to buy their subscription. I personally watch for free plenty of their videos on YouTube. In short, Russian citizens now have an easy way to access independent information. The problem is that most of them do not want to do that.

The situation in Russia and in Ukraine is not all that different after all. There are nuances. But for outsiders like you, you might just not notice them. Same as if someone from Vietnam would visit New York and then Toronto. He would claim that Canada and USA are the same, but Americans and Canadians know better. I'm an American or a Canadian in this example. And you're a Vietnamese.

Where do I get the info? My own life. My wife with PhD (кандидат наук) earns about 23 000 RUR per month. A cheap studio apartment costs in our town about 15 000 RUR per month. My food and my cat's food cost about 10 000 RUR per month. You do the math. And it's 10 miles away from Moscow. And what happens 1000 miles away from it? It's much worse.

Every UA and RU woman is different. So, of course, generalizations aren't accurate. But the general picture is as I described. And it only makes sense that in a country with a worse economic situation people are more desperate to escape. Not just women and not just in Ukraine.

As per my recommendation of   http://kotkovski.com   Again, it has nothing to do with our RU vs. UA discussion. It's just I read that lots of guys here complain about the fact that agencies in FSU charge for everything separately. Like for every chat and e-mail and such. So it's kinda scam. And I just provided an example of an agency that charges a flat fee. That's all.

[msmob]

There is no absolute freedom of speech in most countries. Say, in Germany one can be jailed for denying a Holocaust.

The difference being that in Germany one can oppose the leader and one is not considered unpatriotic / brainwashed ....

Try in Israel to start proving in mass media that Jews have a right to be Christians etc.

You have BEEN to Israel, right ? If you have - you must have been blindfolded and drugged ....  Not all Jews wonder around in black clothes with beards ... preaching fire and brimstone - should one believe the Messiah has already been and gone...

Once again, this leads me to ponder any opinion you post as 'unsound'

[msmob]

So you are equating that thug who doesn’t give a shit about individual liberties and will cook up charges and imprison anyone if that person speaks out against him and will have his opponents poisoned and shot, to Trump? Sheer ignorance. 

Let's recall I posted my utter tosh response to NL's ''No intelligent, logical thinking western man should even be thinking about going anywhere in Russia to meet anyone.

Read the news.''

Trump doesn't / didn't seem to be able to control his sexual urges and has conned US voters by making promises he is already ducking

Would I advise folks from going to the USA because under half the voting electorate voted for him ? Of course not ....

Same applies to Russians


Is this SO hard for you to 'get' ?

[papakota]

I never said that Russia under Putin is a free country. But to say that it's totally not free is wrong too.

As per Israel, you simply don't know it well enough. Go and live there for 14 years and then come back here to argue with me about it.

[msmob]

I never said that Russia under Putin is a free country. But to say that it's totally not free is wrong too.

You are ducking the specific points I picked you up on .. the one's that had me wondering how you could advise folks re 'good dating dates and FSUW attitudes.  Your experiences don't reflect mine. 

Re 'freedom' - it's 'free' as long as you aren't too successful at making anti-Putin noises - this is why MOST Russians are apolitical - they don't feel they can change much and as long as life is good ..  This is why the Kremlin needed a 'win' re Crimea..taking it back has diverted attention from the economic crisis - which can be blamed on sanctions.

As per Israel, you simply don't know it well enough. Go and live there for 14 years and then come back here to argue with me about it.

I know it well enough to do biz there and deal with Israeli's in the comms sector - my contact being a lady in her late 30's - a Christian - married to a Jew..  When I went more regularly - I often stayed with a Jewish guy married to a Latvian Russian Orthodox Christian lady.  They certainly don't give the impression the State or most of it's inhabitants made their life hard, for being non Jewish. 

Once again, it seems we experience totally different scenarios in the same nations ......

[papakota]

You can't equate every single Russian citizen to Nemtsov. People's lives don't revolve around politics and Putin. And yes, under mildly repressive regime of Putin average citizens do enjoy most freedoms. You can't argue with that. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.

As per Israel, you simply didn't understand me since you have no idea about this country. And I won't even waste my time explaining. Learn Hebrew, live there for 14 years as a Jew who's practicing Christian, and once we're at par, then we'll talk.

[Boethius]

You are no longer a Jew if  you're a practicing Christian.

[msmob]

Boethius got there first..

Yet another example of why your opinions/ experiences seem so bizarrely different from westerners' perspectives - to the point I question nearly every opinion you post

[papakota]

You are no longer a Jew if  you're a practicing Christian.

It's true, but those who are "ethnically" Jews (i.e. born to Jewish mothers) are still Jews in Israel. 'cos in Israel there are only two groups of people - Arabs and Jews. So if you are not an Arab, then you are a Jew, even if you worship Astarta. Even pure ethnic Russians who are Orthodox Christians and are Israeli citizens fall into Jewish category socially. They speak Hebrew, live among Jews and intermarry Jews most of the time. They don't become Christian "Arabs", speak Arabic and live in Beth Lehem. In short, google "Messianic Jews Israel" and you'll know more about the subject if you care to know. Or Jews for Jesus (it's mostly in the US)

[papakota]

Boethius got there first..

Yet another example of why your opinions/ experiences seem so bizarrely different from westerners' perspectives - to the point I question nearly every opinion you post

That's because you have no clue either about Russia or Israel, same as I don't know much about the UK. But unlike you, I don't pretend to know it all. Let alone that I speak English 10 times better than you speak Russian and 1000 time better than you speak Hebrew.

[msmob]

It's true, but those who are "ethnically" Jews (i.e. born to Jewish mothers) are still Jews in Israel. 'cos in Israel there are only two groups of people - Arabs and Jews. So if you are not an Arab, then you are a Jew, even if you worship Astarta. Even pure ethnic Russians who are Orthodox Christians and are Israeli citizens fall into Jewish category socially. They speak Hebrew, live among Jews and intermarry Jews most of the time. They don't become Christian "Arabs", speak Arabic and live in Beth Lehem. In short, google "Messianic Jews Israel" and you'll know more about the subject if you care to know. Or Jews for Jesus (it's mostly in the US)

MORE TWADDLE - you sound like some folks from N.Ireland who -on meeting my Russian wife  - wanted to know if Orthodox Christians were 'Protestant or Catholic'..

Whilst, strictly speaking the Orthodox Church might be closer to Rome in  a Theological sense, being a Gentile in Israel just isn't the big deal you might suggest. 

In the past 18 years I have lived considerably more time OUTSIDE of the UK  - and spent just under 180 days in Russia last year, alone - having been coming here since the v.early noughties...So, you'll 'forgive' me if I suggest you are having a 'larf - concerning my not 'knowing' this part of the world... or Ukraine..

Whilst I certainly can't string a sentence together in in Hebrew  - I've travelled the Levant EXTENSIVELY and recognise bizarre opinions re the dating scene in the FSU and nigh on ignorant comparisons of UA/ RU  when I see 'em.

Nearly, every time I counter your 'examples' with specifics - you simply go off on a tangent .... 

[Boethius]

It's true, but those who are "ethnically" Jews (i.e. born to Jewish mothers) are still Jews in Israel. 'cos in Israel there are only two groups of people - Arabs and Jews. So if you are not an Arab, then you are a Jew, even if you worship Astarta. Even pure ethnic Russians who are Orthodox Christians and are Israeli citizens fall into Jewish category socially. They speak Hebrew, live among Jews and intermarry Jews most of the time. They don't become Christian "Arabs", speak Arabic and live in Beth Lehem. In short, google "Messianic Jews Israel" and you'll know more about the subject if you care to know. Or Jews for Jesus (it's mostly in the US)

You don't qualify for aliyah if you are a Messianic Jew. Therefore, according to Israel, Messianic Jews are not considered Jews.

[papakota]

You don't qualify for aliyah if you are a Messianic Jew. Therefore, according to Israel, Messianic Jews are not considered Jews.

Who spoke about the Aliyah? Even those who has one Jewish grandparent on their father side (paternal?) are entitled for Aliyah, but according to Halaha they aren't Jews. My daughter in the US is a good example of that. Well, technically she wouldn't have to go through Aliyah, enough to go to Israeli Consulate in NYC once she's 18 years old. But let's say hypothetically if she wasn't a daughter of an Israeli citizen. They (those who are entitled for Aliyah, but don't have Jewish mothers) must go through Giyur to become Jews. While "ethnic" Jews (those who have Jewish mothers) and who converted to, say, Christianity, don't have to go through Giyur "to become Jews" again
(TO BE ACCEPTED AS JEWS), just to abandon their other religion. Doesn't make sense? It makes a perfect sense, since once you are born Jewish (has a Jewish mother), you're always a Jew. That's why Christian Jews do exist. Otherwise, if we accept your logic, they would have to become Jews again (Giyur), but they don't have to. Israel is not a Jewish state, it's a Zionist state. There is a big difference between the two. It's one reason why Netaniyahu didn't even mention Nemtsov while talking to Putin. Israelis don't care about Jews per se. They only care about potential immigrants and soldiers. As a matter of fact, there is a big debate about this in Israel. Ultra Orthodox Israeli parties demand that only people who have Jewish mothers or who have converted to Judaism would be entitled to become Israelis. Therefore, a Law of Return is not a good criterion of who is a Jew.

[Boethius]

Aliyah was based originally on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew.  But that doesn't mean you will be accepted as Jewish. 


While one is a Jew if he/she has a Jewish mother, he/she is not considered a Jew if he/she converts to Christianity.  Ask a rabbi if you don't believe me.  One can become a Buddhist and still be considered  Jew.  Also, Christians in Israel are not required to serve in the army, which creates a "two tier" citizenship.

[tfcrew]

You are no longer a Jew if  you're a practicing Christian.

I might mention this....Jesus never stopped being Jewish.

[SANDRO43]

I might mention this....Jesus never stopped being Jewish.

...and his real name was Yeshua ben Yosef (in Hebrew, spoken in Judea) or Yehoshua bar Yusuf (in Aramaic, spoken in Israel where Nazareth is located) .

[papakota]

Aliyah was based originally on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew.  But that doesn't mean you will be accepted as Jewish. 

While one is a Jew if he/she has a Jewish mother, he/she is not considered a Jew if he/she converts to Christianity.  Ask a rabbi if you don't believe me.  One can become a Buddhist and still be considered  Jew.  Also, Christians in Israel are not required to serve in the army, which creates a "two tier" citizenship.

Like I said, converted Jews are still Jews. Otherwise who are they? Chinese? Aliyah and registration in Israel - it's a different story. And now you gonna teach ex Israeli soldier about IDF service? ARABS don't serve, not Christians. Ethnic Christian Russians DO serve and MUST serve. What's the point to discuss life in Israel here? The only reason we started talking about Israel is just to talk about Jews who are Christians in Israel. And those guys are being persecuted in Israel, though in a very mild way vs. what happens in Israel's neighboring states to Arab Muslim converts. People lose jobs, being attacked, their cars are being vandalized etc. No one died so far. And definitely Israel's freedom of speech doesn't cover those guys. Therefore, one can't expect a complete freedom of speech under Putin.

P.S. We assume here that there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity. I personally doubt it, but officially in Israel it does exist. Just to explain myself better. They refuse to register a Jew as a Christian in Israel, so I assume that if you really push it, then your religion would be Christian and nothing would be mentioned as your nationality (ethnicity).

[Boethius]

Well, you can tell it to rabbis, not me.  They are the ones who hold that Jews who convert to Christianity are not Jews.  Maimonides wrote that a Jew who converts to Christianity is no longer Jewish (Yad. loc. cit. 2:5).
[/size]
[/size]In Orthodox Judaism, converting to Christianity is viewed as apostasy.  Jews who convert to Christianity can return to Judaism without undergoing conversion, but a mikveh would be required.

[papakota]

I might mention this....Jesus never stopped being Jewish.

Like I tried to explain to Boethius, though it looks like it was in vain. Christian Jews among Jews and in Israel are not SOCIALLY ACCEPTED as Jews, while still being considered Jewish ("bad" Jews in the eyes of other Jews, but still Jews, not Gentiles). And that's why there's an easy "way out" for Christian Jews who don't need to go through a long and complicated Giyur procedure. Aliyah and a registration in Israel are purely bureaucratic procedures, which have nothing to do with a daily life. If Christian Jews weren't considered Jewish, then there wouldn't be an issue with them in the first place. Same as ethnic Russians Orthodox Christians who don't have any problems in Israel.

[Boethius]

Jesus was never a Christian.  The Gospels make it very clear He was sent for "the lost sheep of Israel".  Christianity did not come into existence until after Jesus' death.  That's pretty much Christianity 101.

[papakota]

Well, you can tell it to rabbis, not me.  They are the ones who hold that Jews who convert to Christianity are not Jews.  Maimonides wrote that a Jew who converts to Christianity is no longer Jewish (Yad. loc. cit. 2:5).
[/size]
[/size]In Orthodox Judaism, converting to Christianity is viewed as apostasy.  Jews who convert to Christianity can return to Judaism without undergoing conversion, but a mikveh would be required.

Again, we're talking about apples and oranges here. In ISRAEL NOW it's not the same as it used to be hundreds of years ago in Diaspora. Say, under tsar in Russia a converted Jew was just as every other Christian Russian and therefore not Jewish. But nowadays in Israel a converted Jew doesn't become Russian or German or French. He still lives AMONG JEWS AS A JEW (since the only other option is to become an Arab, which is almost not realistic). There's no third community in Israel, just two. You're either Jewish and live as a "normal" Israeli among Israeli Jews, work among them, speak Hebrew, serve in IDF, go to Jewish Israeli schools etc. OR you are part of Israeli ARAB community (regardless whether it's a Muslim Arab community or a Christian Arab community), and no Christian Jew or even Christian Russian would go there or would be accepted. The ONLY exception to this rule is when, say, an Israeli Muslim Arab marries a Christian woman from Russia, she officially converts to Islam, learns Arabic and lives and works among ARABS in their SEPARATE world (i.e., in an Arab community). And their children would be regular Israeli Arabs. But it's not what we talk about here.
P.S. In a way, Israel is a lighter version of South Africa under apartheid. You're either White or Colored. You can't be half-White. It's either or. That's why South African Jews fell under White category.