Hello from North Carolina

[drsecu]

I like my hunting and shooting and was brought up around guns,  but generally talking about guns won't intrigue women when you're trying to get to know them online no matter where in the world they are from. Exceptions being some rural women in the U.S Im guessing, just seems to be one of those hobbies to bring up later on down the track I've learnt.

It may be a bad application here (I only make that one mention of it in hobbies) but I use the shooting range as my closer and it almost always delivers.  Its also works well as a hook up to a young hotties that are probably out of my league (ask them to take modeling pictures there).  When the Polish chick posted the photos to her facebook all her friends back home were blown away it appeared.  The most comments she ever got.  It knocks off 3 items off my checklist: Something manly, Teach her something, and take out out of of her comfort zone. 

[drsecu]

..... I wouldn't bring up guns right away, some women may believe you're a fanatic about guns, but it's okay to let her know your activities for the day or weekend if it involves guns. I may tell the ladies I'm communicating with I'm going to have fun for a few hours with friends at a gun range for the weekend. I haven't had any women tell me they are anti gun and hate me for it.

I shoot competitively so if they are on my instragram or facebook it is going to be pretty obvious.  I kind of meant it joking, on my own time I am doing stuff I like which is shooting and video games, and working out.  But can't just come out and say I'm at the range, gym, or playing video games all the time.  Also it doesn't really matter, because the time they spend with me will doing couple stuff.

[drsecu]

......

Udachi!

Bill

Bill,

Thanks a lot, that was a good read.  I am going to be doing a lot of reading and may have better questions latter.  I get what your saying.  I see my own flaws, and my errors in logic and short-cutting the process.  I'm definitely keeping an open mind.  That is why I joined was to learn.  One of the younger girls really interests me we have been talking quite a bit, also one of the lawyers is very interesting (she is an online teacher for a American university) so the transition would be easier I would think.

[2tallbill]

Bill, I am reading your trip report. Very nice. Loved your theory of keeping happy wife. Clicked on love-formula.com. It appears it has turned into a PPL site.

Back  I started, I thought that I was an exceptional snowflake and that none of
the rules applied to me. I learned that most of them did. I'm a little bit surprised
that the love formula site still exists.

[2tallbill]

Is arrogance a positive character trait ?

Beauty lies in the beholder, what one person would describe as confidence
another would describe as arrogance. 

[drsecu]

Hi Ryan and welcome to the forum Well we're about the same age so we are probably in a similar situation. I've been looking over a year now and have been on a couple of tips to Ukraine with more upcoming shortly....

Recommend scheduling time with 3-4 during the same trip?  Did your trips not work out or just trying to find the right one?  Did you have luck meeting new people there (that you didn't find online)?

[Trenchcoat]

Recommend scheduling time with 3-4 during the same trip?  Did your trips not work out or just trying to find the right one?  Did you have luck meeting new people there (that you didn't find online)?

Well Dr. Sec, my first one I just dated one lady for a week in Kiev, she was nice, attractive had a good personality and we got on well. But the chemistry just was not quite there, she seemed pleased to be with me but there was no affection. It was a real pain as I can tell you nothing more frustrating. She was a bit religious (orthodox) and a little conservative in morals/values, not heavily so but not the party type. - So this is what is referred to as a visit one trip, you date just one lady an put all your effort into that. The pay off being quality not quantity in terms of messaging, getting to know each other, time together, connection, etc.

The second trip was just to meet one lady (as opposed to date) in Nikolaev this had started out as an attempt at meet many but I did not appreciate the logistics involved in lining up several, particularly in a short space of time as a week. I really just wanted to gain more experience of the FSU where I had not been before visiting Kiev, its culture, the dating game and general society. That and I wanted to see Odessa and what the city was like compared to Kiev - its quite different, nicer I think. Anyway, following a meet many strategy with just one girl turned out to be a big mistake, we met for about an hour over dinner but she wasn't interested made her excuses and that was that. I had not Skyped with her as I didn't want all that fuss and skype was difficult for her, so that was my mistake, that and thinking I could just go by photos that turned me on, just gives no indicator of chemistry I'm afraid. Still, I had a generally nice holiday and learn't about culture, society and dating game so it wasn't a waste.

Could I have used my time more effectively, yes on both occasions. I could have allowed more time to start over from the vo if it did not work out and move to vm. This is what I plan to do this time, again I've got a vo lined up if it works out fine if not I will move to a vm with the extra time I've set aside. Starting out to be honest I'm not sure I would want that on a first outing anyway into uncharted waters. The culture can take a little getting used to. The main issue vo is proposed over vm (visit many) is that while guys go for practicality of vm girls need to feel a guy is committed to them only so feel for a vo from the guy. From the UK a vo not working out is not as bad as from the US where you have a long haul 15 hour flight to contend with compared to just over 3 hours from the UK, each way - plus extra cost.

Anyhow, if your going to visit many as you propose to make a vm strategy work you really need to start writing to girls about a week before hand, two at the tops. Anymore than this and the girl WILL expect you to just be visiting her and will communicate with you with all language and such being about such. So you need to really be there a minimum to two weeks for a vm, particularly from the US. Sure, some may have done it in less time but its not really at all practical. On both of my trips I could have switched to calling up more girls but it takes time to message, say a day or two back and forth so on a one weeker do I want to enjoy my time there or be stuck behind a laptop or similar messaging away most of the day. The trip could be gone before I've lined up that many girls at all.

So I would say 3-4 girls, it needs to be at least a day per girl otherwise meeting two girls on one day is too hectic and leaves no time to enjoy her company, it would show dis-interest to the girl if you said you only have restricted time. Honestly, 3-4 girls may not be worth the journey, its ok if you've got time before the trip to message like its your job, but if you have a job and even the smattering of any sort of a social life your going to be hard pressed to keep up communication with one for any period of time. What I'm saying is that the 3-4 would have to be of some quality, quality communication so almost like a vo without length of messaging to fall into the vo trap, that can be a difficult task. Why? because 3-4 girls without quality communication could quickly fall flat, they might not feel that excited about turning up as they hardly know you, they might have other intentions on the dating site, fake profiles, scammers who just want to anonymously scam, they might odd/mental health issues, bad personality, etc. Odds are most will just not be attracted to you. Often visit many focus on the numbers game, so minimum of say 5-6 about 8 being a decent number perhaps going up to 10. But they are looking for chemistry first and quality communication after. Whereas vo you are hoping the quality communication will help you to a match.

This is why I suggested to Wall a few months back to go out there for a month, he promptly did that came close but possibly fouled up by not going for a woman he seemed to match with and instead continued the search. A mistake but we tend to make them on this journey. Anyway, Wall went back early this year for a second run at it again on a wm, this time he landed with success in Nikolaev, I was stoked for him and the strategy again paid dividends for him. I'm not saying it will work every time but there seems to be a pay off in spending more time out there. So again if you are serious I would again suggest you clear a month in your calendar or close to (think Wall did three weeks). That is what I've got coming up a three week slot off work to allow for more opportunity should the vo not work out. I wouldn't of course line up girls until the vo didn't work out I'm going all out for it and should it work out I will call off the search and use the rest of the time for a break from work. I have a good feeling about this one, but am not going to leave myself without room to move like before. While some have lucked out, I'm not by any means counting on luck this time to see me through. Even with a three weeker or month it may not work out but its better to not restrict yourself too much I think. After all its not really on for a woman to spend all your time knowing she is not interested.

Anyway, Bounder at the moment is really leading the charge, he has gone and moved over there permanently only about a month ago but as yet no success. This may change if not already but I think he's strategy is sound enough. He's putting himself right in the thick of the action so able to meet these girls all the time. I think he will keep evolving his strategy and putting the time in until he achieves success. Its the most logical way about things, while some do luck out with a short trip realistically its not how a lot of relationships function. Having the time input really seems beneficial in this game.   

[JayH]

 

[msmob]

Jeez, TC

Whilst I appreciate your honesty - you certainly made elementary mistakes - no 'Skype' beforehand and you ended up going on a blind date. 

You just aren't assertive enough, it seems.

What STILL scares me is the conclusions you draw - as to your 'failure' ( or worse - those of others ) and then you offer 'advice' - that has me covering my eyes and shaking my head.

What do you define as 'success' - example in the context of Bounder ? He is there to teach English and doesn't have time constraints.

You and I live close enough to do long weekend trips to Kyiv - yet you have been twice and by your stds of 'success' haven't succeeded.

In ALL my trips - to Kyiv -where I went to meet  a date - hoping to find more - and I don't mean 'gratification'  - I met ladies who had the potential for marriage and the trip was worth it. Skype was new (2003) and many ladies didn't have the bandwidth - no smartphones - for video to work.

TC - we DO want you to succeed. But PLEASE stop offering 'advice' while you are still in 'clueless mode.'

 

[drsecu]

Trip is going to be fairly big for me b/c not close to international airport so a big adventure, a US connecting flight or 5hour drive to DC to start off just to get a hub in europe, so was thinking 10 days.  I do have months to plan though.

We have cheap flights to Iceland it appears, I had thought about Iceland, London, or somewhere in Germany has the hub.  I can't picture it working out but there is younger lady in poland (at least some fun right?) that can meet me in Berlin.  My polish friend said to fly to the destinations but I kind wanted to hit the trains and visit several cities along the way.  Is it a huge mistake to plain rail trip to Prague and then Ukraine?

I have an initial plan of meeting the top 2-3 prospects and just winging it if they don't work out. 

[Terryrnz]

I thought it was tough to own a gun where you live. I wouldn't bring up guns right away, some women may believe you're a fanatic about guns, but it's okay to let her know your activities for the day or weekend if it involves guns. I may tell the ladies I'm communicating with I'm going to have fun for a few hours with friends at a gun range for the weekend. I haven't had any women tell me they are anti gun and hate me for it.

It's not hard to own firearms in New Zealand there we can own the same as the United States, semi automatics, fully automatics with the right license and don't have a registry, New Zealand has more relaxed laws that some states in the U.S. I own a safe full of firearms in New Zealand I leave at my grandparents house and use them when I'm home on holiday as for Australia owning firearms is a lot more restricted. Not impossible i own a few here but you can own semi automatics, they have magazine restrictions, hunting is either very restricted or outright banned in some states anc the government keeps a very close eye on you, in short Australia is shit for firearm owners.

[Terryrnz]

It may be a bad application here (I only make that one mention of it in hobbies) but I use the shooting range as my closer and it almost always delivers.  Its also works well as a hook up to a young hotties that are probably out of my league (ask them to take modeling pictures there).  When the Polish chick posted the photos to her facebook all her friends back home were blown away it appeared.  The most comments she ever got.  It knocks off 3 items off my checklist: Something manly, Teach her something, and take out out of of her comfort zone. 

Yea same I have firearms photos on my Facebook of me holding up dead ducks with a shotgun in hand and one of the girls from Kiev added me and mentioned it, she just said it interesting lol.  I just personally don't mention it when I'm trying to get to know someone but if it works for others that's cool. Just not a huge hobby of mine that's all I don't shoot that much these days living in  Australia crappy laws here, only do it really when I'm back home in NZ on holiday.

[HoundDaddyLee]

Jeez, TC

Whilst I appreciate your honesty - you certainly made elementary mistakes - no 'Skype' beforehand and you ended up going on a blind date. 

You just aren't assertive enough, it seems.

What STILL scares me is the conclusions you draw - as to your 'failure' ( or worse - those of others ) and then you offer 'advice' - that has me covering my eyes and shaking my head.

What do you define as 'success' - example in the context of Bounder ? He is there to teach English and doesn't have time constraints.

You and I live close enough to do long weekend trips to Kyiv - yet you have been twice and by your stds of 'success' haven't succeeded.

In ALL my trips - to Kyiv -where I went to meet  a date - hoping to find more - and I don't mean 'gratification'  - I met ladies who had the potential for marriage and the trip was worth it. Skype was new (2003) and many ladies didn't have the bandwidth - no smartphones - for video to work.

TC - we DO want you to succeed. But PLEASE stop offering 'advice' while you are still in 'clueless mode.'

Trench,
Just STOP! If you can't be "bothered" by setting up Skype sessions, just give up. Moby and Jay are correct. Skype is brain dead simple to use. If the woman says she doesn't have a smart phone, she is lying. Unless she is in a village, she has good bandwidth internet and much cheaper than in Western countries. My girl has 50mps down 10mps up for the equivalent of $3/month. The advice you are giving is, to quote Moby, "daft". Spend time talking to multiple girls on Skype and meet the one(s) that you get on with. Look at the advice 2TBill has given. You will not be spending 100's of hours talking on Skype. If the girl doesn't want to Skype with you, move to the next one.


My God man, if I was 3 hours by plane away, I would spend a weekend a month there.
 


Newbies, DO NOT LISTEN to the man in the Trenchcoat! 


HDL

[Boethius]

I think the pile up on Trench is a little unfair. He has stated he made mistakes, including not skyping. I don't see him giving advice here, just relating his experiences. He appears to be open minded in many ways, which is both a positive and a negative with most FSU individuals.

I think logistics are really where the useful information is. Finding an FSUW is like shooting fish in a barrel. Building a relationship that withstands everything life throws your way is a different matter. As every relationship is it's own island, advice on it is of limited value.

Trench, you will never understand Ukrainian culture, other than superficially, nor their mentality. It's not a negative, just don't assume you do.

[Boethius]

I can't picture it working out but there is younger lady in poland (at least some fun right?) that can meet me in Berlin.  My polish friend said to fly to the destinations but I kind wanted to hit the trains and visit several cities along the way.  Is it a huge mistake to plain rail trip to Prague and then Ukraine?

Does the Pole know she's just joining you for fun rather than the possibility of something more?

[Bounder]

I think the pile up on Trench is a little unfair. He has stated he made mistakes, including not skyping. I don't see him giving advice here, just relating his experiences. He appears to be open minded in many ways, which is both a positive and a negative with most FSU individuals.

I think logistics are really where the useful information is. Finding an FSUW is like shooting fish in a barrel. Building a relationship that withstands everything life throws your way is a different matter. As every relationship is it's own island, advice on it is of limited value.

Trench, you will never understand Ukrainian culture, other than superficially, nor their mentality. It's not a negative, just don't assume you do.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.  I think Trench has a lot to learn, but I have also seen him making an effort to learn.  And I DO get the sense that he is a fundamentally decent, honest, straightforward person.  For me, people like that get extra points.  Trench, I hope it works out for you.  Just put your preconceived notions aside and be ready for anything.  And you find a girl you really like and she's into you, let your hair down, and don't hesitate to spend.

[Bounder]

I come back to the fact that you don't seem interested in one of these girls
enough or maybe you need to rethink your current strategy. What is your
current strategy? Do you plan to weed these girls down to one and then
go visit her? (with a backup plan hopefully)

Here it is.  On the subject of FSU dating theory, I do believe Bill applied a third approach, which is a hybrid strategy of WOVO and WMVM.  WOVO with back up plan. 

And it worked for Bill.

[Bounder]

The girl I am in conversation with at the moment tells me about her day - I love hearing about it as it really helps bring her to life. Women often like to talk about their lives 'once they trust you and feel at least a degree of connection on some level'. If they are not sharing there lives they either do not feel comfortable enough with you or take a while to get to know.

The girl I am due to go out and meet soon on another vo has the right vibe, the best yet I would say we've only skyped once and she seems into me already. Whether there is chemistry when we meet is another matter. She is serious and I find her sweet and authentic, the initial signs are very encouraging so much so that I don't get any feelings of doubt or wonders over her level of commitment.

Have a backup plan if it doesn't work out with your WOVO.  Strategy number 3, the 2 Tall 3 strategy as I like to think of it. 

[Bounder]

And I would say none of that matters.  When I met the better half, I knew he was the one.  He's always been the most interesting person I've ever met.  We never discussed any of the things on Bill's list. 

My point is, for each person, different things will be important.  There was a poster here quite some time ago whose criterion was his beloved, like him, loved to party and live the high life.  He didn't get much sympathy when, broke, she took a lover.  But a party girl was what was important to him, so who are we to judge?  He was happy for years, until the money ran out.

No money no honey

[Bounder]

Bill,

Thanks a lot, that was a good read.  I am going to be doing a lot of reading and may have better questions latter.  I get what your saying.  I see my own flaws, and my errors in logic and short-cutting the process.  I'm definitely keeping an open mind.  That is why I joined was to learn.  One of the younger girls really interests me we have been talking quite a bit, also one of the lawyers is very interesting (she is an online teacher for a American university) so the transition would be easier I would think.

I steer clear of lawyers, but that's just me! 

[jone]

Keep in mind, a lawyer in an FSU country is not the same as an Attorney in the West.  I have met a number of FSU lawyers who were great gals.

[Bounder]

I'm assuming that was directed at Trenchcoat's preceeding comment?  So, he made a reflective post where he opened up about his own experiences and also demonstrated that he has learned quite a bit since he first started.

And that is your response.  What does it say about you JayH?  Nothing that most of us don't already know.

[Bounder]

Anyway, Bounder at the moment is really leading the charge, he has gone and moved over there permanently only about a month ago but as yet no success. This may change if not already but I think he's strategy is sound enough. He's putting himself right in the thick of the action so able to meet these girls all the time. I think he will keep evolving his strategy and putting the time in until he achieves success. Its the most logical way about things, while some do luck out with a short trip realistically its not how a lot of relationships function. Having the time input really seems beneficial in this game.

For the record, my decision to move to Moscow had much more into it than just meeting a great girl.  It wasn't my only consideration or motivation.  It also had much to do with a change of career and a change of circumstance.  Finding the ONE, was only part of the equation.  Unexpectedly, I think I may have found her.  In fact, I'm still revelling in the fact that I currently smell like her)))

From when I made my decision to move here, I put many different things into motion and had six months to reconsider my decision.  This was a very big deal for me, life altering, and I don't regret a thing at this point.  But it's a very serious matter and as I've noted elsewhere, no money no honey.  So getting up to speed financially is job number one.

[Bounder]

Jeez, TC

Whilst I appreciate your honesty - you certainly made elementary mistakes - no 'Skype' beforehand and you ended up going on a blind date. 

You just aren't assertive enough, it seems.

What STILL scares me is the conclusions you draw - as to your 'failure' ( or worse - those of others ) and then you offer 'advice' - that has me covering my eyes and shaking my head.

What do you define as 'success' - example in the context of Bounder ? He is there to teach English and doesn't have time constraints.

You and I live close enough to do long weekend trips to Kyiv - yet you have been twice and by your stds of 'success' haven't succeeded.

In ALL my trips - to Kyiv -where I went to meet  a date - hoping to find more - and I don't mean 'gratification'  - I met ladies who had the potential for marriage and the trip was worth it. Skype was new (2003) and many ladies didn't have the bandwidth - no smartphones - for video to work.

TC - we DO want you to succeed. But PLEASE stop offering 'advice' while you are still in 'clueless mode.'

I think TC's posts on this thread show that he has gotten a lot less clueless.  He is starting to figure this out.  He's in pole position because he has a quality that many many, including on this forum don't have, and that is the ability and open-mindedness to learn.  Kudos to him for that, and further recognition that he is able to work out what doesn't work for him and comes up with an approach that he feels is more suited to him personally.

Trench - are you going to Kiev/Ukraine again?  Why not try Russia?  Much less to worry about in the way of scammers.  They have more personal pride here.    Not to say that there aren't good Ukrainian girls, and some members here have found one of their own.  I enjoyed my time in Ukraine and was impressed with the quality of the people, I just think there are less risks in Russia.  It's a numbers game with the hope you can find the needle in the haystack.

[Anotherkiwi]

...Trench, I hope it works out for you.  Just put your preconceived notions aside and be ready for anything.  And you find a girl you really like and she's into you, let your hair down, and don't hesitate to spend.

Like that's gonna happen!