Does a RW need to speak good English, I think not.

[BC]

All I can say is that if my wife had not been practically fluent in English (maybe an 8 on a 10 scale) we would not be married today.

Even still we had enough trouble communicating on the finer points... anything less could easily have been the straw that broke the camels back.

When dating it's quite easy to overlook the long term..  that's where many may go astray in this quest.

[KenC]

Momus,
It is called "wishful thinking."  The inexperienced man "reads" everything in a positive light.  Eventually his fantasy catches up with him and it ain't a pretty sight.
KenC

[Leslie]

This thread is evolving like previous threads on this topic.

I made a rational decision NOT to date women with English skills.  I was fed up with meeting women who had reasonable English skills via the agencies.  Nearly ALL of them were "economic migrants" looking for mule.  Developing good English skills in preparation for a better life equals "other head" strategy!  I also agree with LP - the agency business corrupts.  Long experience dating foreign guys turns most regular women into b*tches....

If you want to meet an ordinary FSU woman you MUST learn Russian. 

If I had my time over again I would simply learn Russian.  Sign up for a summer language school somewhere pleasant (maybe Lyvov) and have nothing whatsoever to do with MOB agencies and the women who register with them.  Just make friends and meet people.

[Momus]

Hi Leslie. I don't think anyone could argue that learning Russian is anything but a great idea. The better the communication that is possible, the better off you're going to be in a relationship.

I'll also take you at your word that most agency women are bitches. I wouldn't know any better, having never met one.

However, what is the difference in moral fiber, or character, or whatever between a RW who learns English for the sole purpose of meeting and marrying a WM, and a WM who learns Russian for the sole purpose of meeting and marrying a RW?

It is fortunate that your wife did not make a rational decision not to date men with Russian skills! ;-)

[Leslie]

Hi Momus,

My wife only dated Ukrainians or Russians.  I was the only foreign guy she ever met.  She only posted a profile because she was at school with the agency owner.  She would not write letters (waste of time).  I know the agency translators answered e-mails for her.  She had no plans to marry a foreigner.  Her family is old Soviet elite.  I certainly did not rescue her from poverty.  As a professional violinist she had no shortage of rich Ukrainian suiters.

[TheHorseman]

As an example, you must consider the difference between AW and RW.  RW dress much more feminine and are generally more flirtatious than most AW. 

I have to disagree with this statement.  I have found that the RW I have known have been anything but flirtatious.  They have mostly been stand offish.  Although they do dress very nice. It may be different with the women in the agencies.  I haven't gone through any agencies.  I went to meet one woman the first time and then to teach English the second.

I can tell you that the Teaching angle is a great way to meet women.  I understand that most of you guys don't have the time to take off for long term deals, but in most cases you can find a school that will allow you to visit for three weeks to a  month.  It also cuts the cost for you guys like me that aren't made of money.  You meet a totally different class of women, most of them are in the process of learning English.  I love it.

If your interested in learning Russian I suggest Pimsluer's Russian Language system.  It work great for me and it is in easy 30 minute lessons.  and not too expensive.

[PeeWee]

I have to disagree with this statement.  I have found that the RW I have known have been anything but flirtatious.  They have mostly been stand offish.  Although they do dress very nice. It may be different with the women in the agencies.  I haven't gone through any agencies.  I went to meet one woman the first time and then to teach English the second.

I can tell you that the Teaching angle is a great way to meet women.  I understand that most of you guys don't have the time to take off for long term deals, but in most cases you can find a school that will allow you to visit for three weeks to a  month.  It also cuts the cost for you guys like me that aren't made of money.  You meet a totally different class of women, most of them are in the process of learning English.  I love it.

If your interested in learning Russian I suggest Pimsluer's Russian Language system.  It work great for me and it is in easy 30 minute lessons.  and not too expensive.

Russians generally don't much show their emotions in public, do they? Lena had told me about something that caused her great sadness which she was at the train station. "But I did not cry," she said. "Not until I got home."  I asked why. "Because I am Russian. I do not cry in public."  It took that to mean she was like all Russians. Would not the opposite of sadness be joy? I have only this one example and it may be unique of the person and not of all Russians. To be stand-offish seems logical to me based on what I was told.

Peewee

[andrewfi]

Leslie ~I would tend to agree with your point about learning the language oneself but, in the context of this discussion and board, most of these guys will never exit the agency bubble, lacking time and other resources to emulate your very sensible choices. Given that reality, it is thus important that the women that these guys meet CAN manage reasonably good English and display aptitude and willingness to learn more and rapidly.

Of course, if the woman is going to live in an English speaking country then fluency is imperative and I am sure that you would agree that the higher the level of ability at the time of landing, the easier the transition process is.

I very much agree with Stirlitz who once posted his opinion that women who spoke English were liklely to be the ones who had made a career choice (he did not use those words!) and thus it was better to seek a woman with little or no English. But, given that one does not wantto have communication mediated by a third party and that ultimately two people have to go it alone, I am certain that being able to discern a woman's attitude through shared communication is MUCH better than being left guessing! The biggest single advantage and one that you, Leslie, and I have written about in the past is that one can hope to find the woman who has no intention of leaving her homeland and who thus, if persuaded to do so, is likley to be choosing person first and destination a very distant second.

[jb]

Usually Andrew and me are on the same page concerning this topic.  I'm surprised anyone thinks there's some wiggle room on this one.  Truly, IMHO, if anyone believes in the fantasy that good marriages can be made without a shared common language, he likely also believes in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus.   

I wish it were so easy as the "One Size Fits All" concept that the marriage agencies push.  They publish a woman's profile with a one or two paragraph bio and the subliminal message is; "This woman is ready for marriage~!", to any man, right now, first one across the pond gets to claim the prize!!  Which we all know, mentally, is not true, these women are all individuals with personalities of their own, with their own likes and dislikes, and maybe even a few bad habits thrown in for good measure.  Since I think it's safe to say that even the most honest and confident woman will be more than a little nervous meeting a man for the first time who has flown halfway round the world for the purpose of selecting a mate, a man had better be able to explore this woman's personality with something more meaningful that reading a nervous woman's body language.   

There is no cookie cutter traditional RW, they don't make them "One Size Fits All".  I wish that myth would die.

[Son of Clyde]

My wife is always saying, if she has to learn English why can't I learn Russian? In the beginning I was thinking, she is in my country, why must I learn her language? I know now I need to take some classes. Actually, I have wanted to learn Russian and I have some cd's and books, so having a Russian family should make the homework easier. My biggest worry was not having anyone to practice with. Now I have a family and many friends to help me with my Russian. It is a good idea to learn her language but I am surprised at how well we do communicate. I look back to the times I visited her in Ukraine and our interpreter was not with us 24 hours a day and we did well communicating. Now it is even easier now that my wife has been taking English classes for 6 months.

[swindoom]

Truly, IMHO, if anyone believes in the fantasy that good marriages can be made without a shared common language, he likely also believes in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus.   

I do not believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus or that God bloke but I know a good marriage can come from a relationship that starts without a common language, as other posters on this website have stated before.

The first time I met my lady she spoke very little English and I spoke very little Russian but the important thing about my first visit was just to meet her and see if she was for real. I had no intention of proposing to someone or even talking about getting married on my first visit. Once my lady had understood I was not a keyboard Romeo and I was a fairly "normal" guy she started her English lessons. We did not talk about marriage until after my third visit when her English was good enough to hold an intelligent discussion about such a serious subject.

I understand that this is not a good way to do things for some people as it requires alot more effort, time, visit's and patience but for me it was perfect as I was not in any rush to get married.

This subject has been beaten to death before and I am sure it will be again in the future. In general no-one can say one approach is better than another it is all down to the individuals involved and there personal preferences/experiences.

[KenC]

We did not talk about marriage until after my third visit when her English was good enough to hold an intelligent discussion about such a serious subject.

I understand that this is not a good way to do things for some people as it requires alot more effort, time, visit's and patience but for me it was perfect as I was not in any rush to get married.

Hmm, this kind of sums up the whole idea now doesn't it?  Eventually the couple has to have a common language. Important decisions, like getting engaged or married is best left until the couple can communicate with each other.  To do otherwise, is foolish.
KenC

[jb]

Swindoom,

I realize that your post was supposed to sound more of a rebuttal than an agreement, however, your own statement, and I quote:

Once my lady had understood I was not a keyboard Romeo and I was a fairly "normal" guy she started her English lessons. We did not talk about marriage until after my third visit when her English was good enough to hold an intelligent discussion about such a serious subject.

Reads more like an endorsement than anything else.

[KenC]

Just an observation on my part:
A lot depends upon the seriousness or the stage of the relationship here.  If one is to go over and casually meet some women to begin a relationship, then maybe a minimal amount of common language would be sufficient.  But sooner or later, preferably sooner, the couple will need to communicate one on one. 

This topic is much like the "visit many" vs. "visit one" debate.  Eventually the field has to be pared down to just one.

How anyone can seriously proceed into an engagement or marriage without being able to communicate is almost like playing Russian roulette, only with 5 bullits in the chambers and only one chance for survival.  Can you be successful?  Sure, but it isn't likely.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Hmm, this kind of sums up the whole idea now doesn't it?  Eventually the couple has to have a common language. Important decisions, like getting engaged or married is best left until the couple can communicate with each other.  To do otherwise, is foolish.KenC

"Eventually" and "persuing a women with no English" is the same thing.   Anyone would be an idiot to go after a women who spoke no English and said she had no interest in ever learning it.   Those of us who think it is not that big a deal if two people really want to make it work are assuming as you get to know each other you will work on finding some way to communicate or more than one.

if anyone believes in the fantasy that good marriages can be made without a shared common language, he likely also believes in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus
Damn, I am sure Leslie and SOC are gong to be disappointed since they both did it.  Maybe they both should think about divorces since they must just be fooled into thinking they are happy but hey better do it quick so they have it done to go sit on Santa's lap.

[catzenmouse]

Forget about all this speaking English or not speaking English stuff... There are much more important topics mentioned here.

Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy aren't real!?!?!?

  :noidea:

What the heck is going on here!!!

[jb]

T/G,

Re-read the facts, Leslie learned passable Russian, i.e., they had a common language.

SoC still reports many problems in his marriage, most of which would have been avoided had they shared a common language.  I'll grant you, he works hard at the marriage, but even he doesn't give it a 100% thumbs up yet.  Imagine how much better and further along they would be if they could actually "talk" to each other.  What is he going to do when he has to discuss really complicated issues?  For example, just the other day we had a serious conversation about "Last Wills And Testaments", how we will divvy things up if one of us gets runover by a cement truck on the freeway.  Do you suppose Son of Clyde could have that discussion with his Iryna without a competent translator?

Her English skills, even after several months here, are still seemingly not good enough to sort out any of the more complex issues married couples have to plan for.

[KenC]

"Eventually" and "persuing a women with no English" is the same thing.   Anyone would be an idiot to go after a women who spoke no English and said she had no interest in ever learning it.   Those of us who think it is not that big a deal if two people really want to make it work are assuming as you get to know each other you will work on finding some way to communicate or more than one.

if anyone believes in the fantasy that good marriages can be made without a shared common language, he likely also believes in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus
Damn, I am sure Leslie and SOC are gong to be disappointed since they both did it.  Maybe they both should think about divorces since they must just be fooled into thinking they are happy but hey better do it quick so they have it done to go sit on Santa's lap.

Turbo,
Here you go again: twisting words in order to show your sarcastic wit (or lack there of).  Leslie pointed out that his wife had some English skills and that he had some Russian skills and together they managed until they both improved their skills.  I don't remember how limited Clyde's wife's English was in the beginning, but she did have at least some basic English skills when she arrived here.  The point is that the common language has to be developed sooner or later and preferably before the important decisions are made.  Both of these guys did do that and no one is saying they were wrong, just that it is a more difficult road to travel.  With your track record you should look for the easiest routes possible and quit bucking the odds like you tend to do.
KenC

[Jet]

My wife is always saying, if she has to learn English why can't I learn Russian?

Liliya would be damn quick to tell her Because the two of you are not living in Russia! Her point being, if your wife wants to carry out any semblance of a normal life in this country, she needs to speak to other people besides you. It may sound harsh, but it's not meant that way, it's meant to be practical. If the situation were reversed and you guys WERE living in Russia (or any other non english speaking country) it would be incumbant upon YOU to learn that language.

[Turboguy]

Turbo,
Here you go again: twisting words in order to show your sarcastic wit (or lack there of).  Leslie pointed out that his wife had some English skills and that he had some Russian skills and together they managed until they both improved their skills.  I don't remember how limited Clyde's wife's English was in the beginning, but she did have at least some basic English skills when she arrived here.  The point is that the common language has to be developed sooner or later and preferably before the important decisions are made.  Both of these guys did do that and no one is saying they were wrong, just that it is a more difficult road to travel.  With your track record you should look for the easiest routes possible and quit bucking the odds like you tend to do.
KenC

I went back and reread his post.  If you can find that there please show it to me.  I am not saying it was not the case, just you can not tell that from what he said in this tread.

As far as SOC, the impression I have is that when she arrived her English skills were rather limited.   As far as that creating any problems in their marriage now, I have met her, I have talked to her on the phone, I have been in their home.  Her English is good enough now that they should have no problems communicating.  Any problems they may or may not have now are not, as you insinuated, because of the language differences.  Actually for someone who was a lifelong bachelor and someone adjusting to a new culture, they are doing fine.

As far as the route I persue myself, I am talking more in general not as my plan of action.  I am not even close to narrowing down to one gal at this point.  Most of the gals I am interested in speak English.  Some better than me.  One or two have no English.  If I do not feel like I can develop communication and rapport with them I will not continue with them.  I am not looking at English ability's that strongly when I am in a pre-screening stage but when it comes decision time that could be something I look at hard or may not be.  I will have to see when the time comes.

[KenC]

Turbo,
I think it is you that desperately needs to improve your English comprehension skills because most of what you write is argumentative yet redundant of the post you seem to be protesting.  I'll give you one big:


Huh?    

KenC

[BC]

Turbo,

You will probably have much more success being among the 'rule' instead of striving to be among the 'exceptions'.

I can't even remember how many time I've heard: 'but my case is different......'

Yeah right.

[jb]

Oh crap, T/G~!   

You've been pre-screening women for about 2 or 3 years now that we know of, the last one which did pass the test got a free 90 day vacation to the USA, and now you presume to lecture?  Is there something called a "Lost Soul Award?  You certainly deserve it.

I feel very sorry for you.

[Turboguy]

jb, I have been pre-screening women for a lot more than 2 or 3 years.  Who's lecturing.  I am just disagreeing with you.   My views are the same as the person that started this thread.  You have never been in the same boat as 90% of the unmarried guys here.  You have not been to one agency looking for a woman, you have not been on one romance tour.  You have never purchased addresses to write to gals.  You have never married a woman you can not communicate with.  You have never done it, neither have I.  Clyde did and he seems to be doing ok, lots of guys have and done fine.   I am not saying it is not better to have a gal you can communicate with.  I am just saying if two people really want to be together they will overcome the obsticales they must overcome. 

BC, I am not trying to be the rule or the exception.  I am just trying to find a good woman.  I look at their abilities to speak English but I don't plan to rule someone out before they have a chance over the language issue.  If need be, by the time she would get here I could have my Russian to the stage that we could communicate.

KenC,  Thanks for the big HUH,  It is the most anyone has given me today.  Sometimes you guys all seem to have overactive imaginations.

[Turboguy]

Ok guys, I give up.  Most of the time I just hang out here but once in a while I will visit elsewhere.  Actually jb's posting of a link made me click it.   I saw the same topic elsewhere and scanned through it a bit.  Most of the feelings were about the same, some thought it was no big deal and some thought it was critical.

There was one post that made me laugh.  If I post this you guys will know why I really think language is not important.   Here was the comment elsewhere.

"If a man is a halfwit, it is in his best interests to target girls who speak zero English. With a bit of luck, he can marry and impregnate her before she learns the truth." Now my secret is out.