Former Soviet gymnast, Tatiana Gutsu, accusses teammate of Rape.

[Anotherkiwi]

If clothing determines who gets raped, rapists should focus on beaches, preferably nudist beaches.

Exactly!  I mean, why waste time pulling off someone's clothes, especially if they might get blood on them!  Doesn't matter how messy they get on a nudist beach - just dump them in the water afterwards, and all the blood will wash off. 

Sheesh!

[ML]

Exactly!  I mean, why waste time pulling off someone's clothes, especially if they might get blood on them!  Doesn't matter how messy they get on a nudist beach - just dump them in the water afterwards, and all the blood will wash off. 

Sheesh!

A medical doctor I spent time with in SPb  told me that she and her former husband often had sex at the beach.

I asked if they were under a blanket, did she get sand in her crack, etc.

She said, "No, we were out in the water."

In which case dirty water up the woo-hoo should have been a concern also.

[Trenchcoat]

Male swimmers, divers, weightlifters all wear clothing as or more revealing than gymnasts' leotards.

It's a stupid argument.

Oh Boe, just winding you up, you took the bait lovely

I think I'm right on the girl gymnast roommate not giving a cr*p though aren't I, in that FSU culture is about look out for yourself & family, no.1 (in general) and it's up to others to fend for themselves, am I right?

[Boethius]

No, you are not right.  I think it likely had more to do with the fact they were 15 years old.


FSU society is not about looking out for yourself/family.  The meaning of the word дружба is very specific, and that type of friendship is more common in the FSU than it is in the West.

[Trenchcoat]

Well, just looked back and there's been a bit of an update on this situation a while ago. Looks like a case of good girl gone bad, she was apparently drinking & smoking and got so intoxicated that she passed out meaning any account from her is unreliable at best.

Link: http://deadspin.com/russian-media-refuses-to-believe-tatiana-gutsu-when-she-1820084907

[msmob]

Well, just looked back and there's been a bit of an update on this situation a while ago. Looks like a case of good girl gone bad, she was apparently drinking & smoking and got so intoxicated that she passed out meaning any account from her is unreliable at best.

Link: http://deadspin.com/russian-media-refuses-to-believe-tatiana-gutsu-when-she-1820084907

Trench, you NEVER cease to amaze me - what with that 'sense of humour' of yours that you ... 

Did you ever stop to think that the 'good girl' may have gone off the rails as a direct result of her turmoil ? 

Indeed, we might be seeing why you do so well on dates ....

[Trenchcoat]

Trench, you NEVER cease to amaze me - what with that 'sense of humour' of yours that you ... 

Did you ever stop to think that the 'good girl' may have gone off the rails as a direct result of her turmoil ? 

Indeed, we might be seeing why you do so well on dates ....

She started drinking & smoking willingly so with him before the alleged rape happened and she was only 15 at the time.

[msmob]

She started drinking & smoking willingly so with him before the alleged rape happened and she was only 15 at the time.

Am I reading you right ? Drinking and smoking means she was bad and 'asked for it' ?

[Trenchcoat]

Am I reading you right ? Drinking and smoking means she was bad and 'asked for it' ?

Don't be silly. I'm saying if a girl drinks and smokes like that she deserves what she gets. If she had stayed sober none of that would have happened, if in fact anything at all happened. I don't really know why she came out with it, admitting to being in such an intoxicated state by her own choosing basically means her claims are meaningless. She's only served to embarrass herself.

[msmob]

Don't be silly. I'm saying if a girl drinks and smokes like that she deserves what she gets. If she had stayed sober none of that would have happened, if in fact anything at all happened. I don't really know why she came out with it, admitting to being in such an intoxicated state by her own choosing basically means her claims are meaningless. She's only served to embarrass herself.

I wasn't 'being silly' and you response basically means that you think that 'no' from  drunk lass can safely be ignored ?

You cannot have been paying attention to UK cases were professional footballers lost their careers for believing as you seen to.  Their 'defence' being the lass was drunk and couldn't possibly know / remember ....

[Trenchcoat]

I wasn't 'being silly' and you response basically means that you think that 'no' from  drunk lass can safely be ignored ?

You cannot have been paying attention to UK cases were professional footballers lost their careers for believing as you seen to.  Their 'defence' being the lass was drunk and couldn't possibly know / remember ....

Well let's us remember Chad Evans got convicted of this sort of stuff which was later overturned. Some footballers do get successfully convicted and while every case is different I think convictions where alcohol were involved could be potentially unsafe and open to challenge. I think in a lot of these cases the overbearing nature of feminism has been brought to bear who essentially demand every guy is automatically guilty if there is an accusation made & alcohol was involved. The defence of innocent until proven guilty gets thrown out the window and override by 'he's a guy and there was alcohol so we'll convict on our suspicion that he supplied alcohol to get he's way'. The assumption is automatic guilt in this country if a girl accuses and she was under influence in Russia it is thankfully not so.

[msmob]

Well let's us remember Chad Evans got convicted of this sort of stuff which was later overturned. Some footballers do get successfully  I think convictions where alcohol were involved could be potentially unsafe and open to challenge. I think in a lot of these cases the overbearing nature of feminism has been brought to bear who essentially demand every guy is automatically guilty if there is an accusation made & alcohol was involved. The assumption is automatic guilt in this country if a girl accuses and she was under influence in Russia it is thankfully not so.

1/ Do you know how Chad Evans got his conviction overturned ?

2/ You certainly don't know how the Russian legislative system works....

All I'm seeing is more misogynistic nonsense  (

[Anotherkiwi]

Well, just looked back and there's been a bit of an update on this situation a while ago. Looks like a case of good girl gone bad, she was apparently drinking & smoking and got so intoxicated that she passed out meaning any account from her is unreliable at best.

Ah, right...you do realise that "passed out" means unconscious, don't you?  Since when can an unconscious person possibly give consent to having sex?  The "gentleman" involved was obviously really high-class if he had to resort to having sex with someone who was essentially a breathing corpse.

And, in any case, it doesn't matter if she DID give consent (which is utterly improbable, given the circumstances) - this is still statutory rape, at the very least.

[Trenchcoat]

Ah, right...you do realise that "passed out" means unconscious, don't you?  Since when can an unconscious person possibly give consent to having sex?  The "gentleman" involved was obviously really high-class if he had to resort to having sex with someone who was essentially a breathing corpse.

And, in any case, it doesn't matter if she DID give consent (which is utterly improbable, given the circumstances) - this is still statutory rape, at the very least.

Yes but to alledge rape an account of it has to be taken from somewhere. Otherwise anyone could alledge they were raped while they were asleep. Her account is one of getting intoxicated, so much so that she passed out. When she came too she was not exactly in a sober state - if she did in fact fully come too. It hardly makes for a credible statement.

[Boethius]

Have you ever heard of DNA, Trench?  Do you know anything about female anatomy?

[Brasscasing]

Ah, right...you do realise that "passed out" means unconscious, don't you?  Since when can an unconscious person possibly give consent to having sex?  The "gentleman" involved was obviously really high-class if he had to resort to having sex with someone who was essentially a breathing corpse.

And, in any case, it doesn't matter if she DID give consent (which is utterly improbable, given the circumstances) - this is still statutory rape, at the very least.

If this complaint proceeds and becomes a criminal matter, as the assault is alleged to have occurred in Germany, the German authorities will have jurisdiction.

The age of consent in Germany is 14 yoa.

Edit: Wikipedia expands on the age of consent statutes and states...(under Section 182(1), it is illegal to engage in sexual activity with a person under 18 "by taking advantage of an exploitative situation"...

Which intoxicated would include...

If it becomes a civil matter, generically speaking, if a wrong has been committed against a person, a civil action can be instituted where the wrongful act occurred (Germany) or in the jurisdiction where the respondent (defendant) resides (U.S.).

The U.S. has some pretty complicated state and federal regulations regarding presumption to jurisdiction in civil proceedings for acts committed outside their borders.

Either way, the complainant has a long hard road ahead of her if she wants resolution.

That being said, with the current sexual assault/harassment/inappropriate conduct complaints wave sweeping North America, now's the time to do it.

Brass

[Trenchcoat]

Have you ever heard of DNA, Trench?  Do you know anything about female anatomy?

Doubt there will be any DNA evidence now Boe unless she was able to keep something with his dried up fluid on it. Seeing as according to her she was naked from the waist down this seems unlikely.

[Boethius]

I wasn't referring to a specific case, but to the general comments in your post, which were not restricted to a particular case. 


I don't believe Tatiana Gutsu is looking for anyone to be charged.  She just wants his actions to be exposed.

[Trenchcoat]

I wasn't referring to a specific case, but to the general comments in your post, which were not restricted to a particular case. 


I don't believe Tatiana Gutsu is looking for anyone to be charged.  She just wants his actions to be exposed.

You mean like most of those on the feminist 'me too' - instead of going out to the Police who handle this stuff they instead go to 'me too' to slander the guy and drag theit name though the mud. Nice that trial by accusation through media has replaced the police and the court process. Then again if it's at the behest of feminism I'm sure it all beyond questioning least to do so would be to get shouted down.

[msmob]

You mean like most of those on the feminist 'me too' - instead of going out to the Police who handle this stuff they instead go to 'me too' to slander the guy and drag theit name though the mud. Nice that trial by accusation through media has replaced the police and the court process. Then again if it's at the behest of feminism I'm sure it all beyond questioning least to do so would be to get shouted down.

Trench,

Ever noticed that when one lady goes public, others may follow? I expect that likes of certain folk might suggest this isx'cashing in' rather than more likely realising they weren't alone.

Their stories are compared by experts in such claims and it can become clear if there is a pattern..

In the case of the gymnast, there is nothing to stop authorities in their respective home nations investigating .

Criminal cases in some  FSU nations mean the if your case gets before the Prosecutor and it goes to trial.... You might as well plead guilty...

[Anotherkiwi]

Yes but to alledge rape an account of it has to be taken from somewhere. Otherwise anyone could alledge they were raped while they were asleep.

If you're female, and wake up to find semen leaking out of your vagina, then it's pretty bloody obvious that some man has had sex with you.  Even if you had "only" been asleep, rather than unconscious, it's going to take a hell of a story to convince anyone that consent had been given.

Her account is one of getting intoxicated, so much so that she passed out. When she came too she was not exactly in a sober state - if she did in fact fully come too. It hardly makes for a credible statement.

Once again, you completely miss the point.  YOU CANNOT CONSENT TO SEX IF YOU ARE UNCONSCIOUS!!!    And who supplied the alcohol in the first place?  She certainly didn't get it herself.

Therefore she was raped.  END OF STORY.

[GQBlues]

It appears the peanut gallery is indeed lacking in knowledge in these cases. DNA testing is but one method to clinically determine if rape/sex had occurred, which, in some of these cases, rape may also include assault and/or molestation.


Every time a woman have sex, or is penetrated, there will be vaginal bruising that a medical physician can and will detect, even if the perpetrator used a rubber or used a foreign object. Which is why it is so important for a woman to immediately get herself examined.


As for the avalanche of accusers stepping up with their allegations, if one or even two women are 'proven' to be credible with their accusation/s, all other women can accuse the same assailant/person if, despite the absence of any medical examination/proof, they can provide circumstantial evidence of their meeting/association/experience with the accused since the accused had already been 'proven', or admitted to, of nefarious behavior. i.e Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, etc...

[Trenchcoat]

Criminal cases in some  FSU nations mean the if your case gets before the Prosecutor and it goes to trial.... You might as well plead guilty...

From what I hear in Ukraine/Russia few cases get far especially if it's seen that there was some sort of relationship rather than a stranger in assault type of situation. Here with there drink being involved and such time passed I can't see the any FSU authorities intervening at all. The Russian media for starters have dismissed her credibility and apparently that is reflective of Russian society.

[2tallbill]

If you're female, and wake up to find semen leaking out of your vagina, then it's pretty bloody obvious that some man has had sex with you.

Yep it's pretty obvious. Did the man claim it was consensual? Is there evidence
that she was unconscious? Did the semen prove to be his? All those things have
to be answered in the right way for it to be cut and dried.

I don't have a horse in that decision. It either happened or it didn't.

Here is a recent story where it isn't cut and dried.
WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange Denies Rape in Detailed Account of Encounter
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/world/europe/assange-gives-detailed-account-of-rape-accusation.html

[Trenchcoat]

Once again, you completely miss the point.  YOU CANNOT CONSENT TO SEX IF YOU ARE UNCONSCIOUS!!!    And who supplied the alcohol in the first place?  She certainly didn't get it herself.

Therefore she was raped.  END OF STORY.

Says who? She does. So on the basis off her say so she was raped end off.

It is you who are missing the point Kiwi - she needs evidence to prove her claim - she has none. The only other possible witness to the event, her team mate, a female actually backs up the guy not her. She meanwhile states that she was both drunk, and had been unconscious. She also failed to notify the German authorities of the alleged rape at the time and did nothing for the odd 27 years or so.

So the point you are missing is that you cannot state that she was raped until it is proven. As the saint goes innocent until proven guilty. This has not been even brought before any authorities let alone a court case. I really don't think it will unless something really damning comes to light since there is not a leg to stand on. When your only possible witness (assuming she was conscious) who is female will not back her up it pretty much falls flat on it face.

Being unconscious/asleep and claiming rape does not automatically make it so. It still needs to be proven as does if a girl accepts a drink and claims she was raped, it still needs to be proven, you can't just say a guy provided the drink hence he's motives in providing the drink are automatically deceitfull. I think you will find I'm right on this